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Top Of Rail Lubrication

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Posted by mvlandsw on Thursday, February 6, 2020 10:18 PM

BaltACD

Most common cause I would hear from trains stalling - "We were doing good until we got to the greaser."

 

I had that trouble on Sandpatch and the NS grade north of Youngstown. The NS has two tracks; one had greasers and the other did not. We always asked the dispatcher if we could use the ungreased track since CSX always used the absolute minimum of power on their coal trains. The NS would add helpers on their trains. 

Greasers also cause trouble going downgrade. The dynamic brakes cannot maintain as much braking force without sliding the wheels and the car brakes lose some of their effectiveness.

Just another complaint from an operator type.

Mark Vinski

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Posted by BaltACD on Thursday, February 6, 2020 8:18 PM

Deggesty
Yes, the natural lubricants can be quite bothersome. You also do not want to meet a weed-killer train that has just come down a grade. It also makes the rails slippery. I still remember going up to Asheville from Hayne (just west of Spartanburg in the summer of 1964.

Used to get the Weed Spray Train on a regular basis in late May through the end of June up to about 2014 - the Weed Spray contractor switched from using a train to using a hi-rail vehicle - they could get more track time with the hi-rail than they could with the spray train.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by Deggesty on Thursday, February 6, 2020 8:12 PM

Yes, the natural lubricants can be quite bothersome. You also do not want to meet a weed-killer train that has just come down a grade. It also makes the rails slippery. I still remember going up to Asheville from Hayne (just west of Spartanburg in the summer of 1964.

Johnny

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Posted by tree68 on Thursday, February 6, 2020 7:39 PM

Overmod
Overmod wrote the following post an hour ago: tree68 I suspect that some sort of high pressure jet (as in pressure washers) would be more effective. Right idea, wrong medium:  I'm still sad not much came of this idea after all the excitement back at the time...

Might do the job - especially if it blows the leaves off the tracks before they are mashed.  

We'd have to get the shortline we run on to do the same with their locomotives.

I've found that under most circumstances, I can do just fine on clean, wet rail.  That's why a pressure washer comes to mind.   Add the leaves and it's another story.  And the leaves tend to be like the rail greasers - their slipperiness gets spread.

LarryWhistling
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Posted by Erik_Mag on Thursday, February 6, 2020 7:32 PM

Overmod

But how quickly we appear to have forgotten the LaserTrain from the LIRR updates Dave Klepper provided -- and that doesn't seem to be flopping at all.

(And who can argue with power lasers as a solution for anything??? Big Smile)

Need to be tried out on Baldwin shark nose cabs first.

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, February 6, 2020 6:49 PM

tree68
I suspect that some sort of high pressure jet (as in pressure washers) would be more effective.

Right idea, wrong medium:  I'm still sad not much came of this idea after all the excitement back at the time...

https://www.ge.com/reports/post/117523413230/this-software-guided-supersonic-air-blower-sweeps/

But how quickly we appear to have forgotten the LaserTrain from the LIRR updates Dave Klepper provided -- and that doesn't seem to be flopping at all.

(And who can argue with power lasers as a solution for anything??? Big Smile)

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Posted by BaltACD on Thursday, February 6, 2020 5:52 PM

Most common cause I would hear from trains stalling - "We were doing good until we got to the greaser."

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, February 6, 2020 4:16 PM

mudchicken
The idea is to lubricate the side of the top ball of rail (5/8" below gage corner on down the gage side of the ball), not the top.

That is gauge-corner and flange lubrication.  TOR is a completely different animal (and a completely different set of salesmen touting different potential management-related bennies).

No few of the prospective systems for TOR point out not only that it needs to be applied only after the last axle of consist power, but that some means of either cleaning it off or letting it naturally degrade or be washed off the railhead region must happen before the next driving axle crosses it.  Where this starts to get fun is in situations like climbing grades with too much effective train resistance, where a stalled train needs to back over its own dispensed TOR to get a better start.  Various kinds of active rail 'washing' or passivation schemes are supposedly provided, and magically kept in full proportional working order with their precious magic fluids kept untainted and in full supply.

That TOR provides 'measurable' running resistance reduction has been demonstrated.  I submit that the "market" has spoken much as MC has, that said reduction is not worth either the first cost or the ongoing maintenance to provide it.

I confess I had high hopes for the self-metering Crayola sticks on locomotives for flange and fillet greasing with hard compound that would not 'migrate' out to treads as easily.  I also had high hopes for Porta's HAWP and for tools to maintain the various angles and areas of that profile.  I'm still surprised at the general primitive state of many right-of-way greasers (a better term than 'flange greasers' in almost any circumstance) and how many areas are serviced by periodic MOW trucks -- one of the things I'm interested to see 'automated' as a sequel of the BNSF robot-inspection research.

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Posted by tree68 on Thursday, February 6, 2020 1:17 PM

mudchicken

(Sounds like a job for a work train and guys with the knowledge of how to use fire hoze nozzles).....You might even get a few DOT 110 or 111 tank cars donated to the cause.

In the fall, on a breezy day, the application of this "lubricant" is constant.  They'd just stick better to the wet rails.

I suspect that some sort of high pressure jet (as in pressure washers) would be more effective.  Or a sand dispersal system that doubled up (or better) the amount of sand put down, to the point that it would overwhelm the leaves.  

LarryWhistling
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Posted by mudchicken on Thursday, February 6, 2020 11:52 AM

(Sounds like a job for a work train and guys with the knowledge of how to use fire hoze nozzles).....You might even get a few DOT 110 or 111 tank cars donated to the cause.

Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west
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Posted by tree68 on Wednesday, February 5, 2020 6:44 PM

adkrr64
Our RR has rail lubricators planted all along the right of way, and the lubricant is applied annually during the autumn season.

Plant-based and all-natural, to boot!

LarryWhistling
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Posted by adkrr64 on Wednesday, February 5, 2020 6:20 PM

Our RR has rail lubricators planted all along the right of way, and the lubricant is applied annually during the autumn season.

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Posted by mudchicken on Wednesday, February 5, 2020 1:09 PM

The idea is to lubricate the side of the top ball of rail (5/8" below gage corner on down the gage side of the ball), not the top. Being that putting the lubricant application system on the locomotive does not work (between the poor attention of the mechanical forces and the unthinking operationg people turning the applicators off (some are glorified wax crayons) , the things never work as intended), the lubricant is either put down by M/W hi-rail trucks or by wayside applicators.

Goop gage* anyone? The darned traction motors in the shiny operating toys (necessary evil things) create corrugation on the top of rail that only a rail grinder will remove in the end. If you start seeing "steel dandruff" along the gage side base of rail, you have serious i$$ues in your future.

(*) real term

 

Edit: 5 minutes after my reply, an article from one of the two railroad industry rags (PR) put out a set of articles on lubricants, lubricators and application methods (complete with the obligatory operating side whining)  

Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west
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Posted by BigJim on Wednesday, February 5, 2020 8:29 AM

I haven't read the article, probably won't as I don't subscribe, but I don't see any useful purpose to top of the rail lubrication. In fact TOR, as I know it, is a serious safety hazard!
One day efforts to lubricate the edge of the rail head wound up leaving a very very small bead of oil on top of the rail. Needless to say that the division came to a complete stop on either side of the mountain because of lost traction.

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Posted by BigJim on Wednesday, February 5, 2020 8:19 AM

Unfortunately, fillet lubrication ultimately turns into top of the rail lubrication on curves as the grease slings off of the wheel. This is then exacerbated by rain which will make the greasy spot spread along the top of the rail for a quarter mile or more!

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, February 4, 2020 10:39 PM

Keep in mind that TOR and flange/fillet lubrication are very different things, involving different agents delivered in different ways.

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Posted by Erik_Mag on Tuesday, February 4, 2020 10:34 PM

IIRC, the top of rail lubrication would be done after the locomotives have passed.

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Posted by tree68 on Tuesday, February 4, 2020 10:28 PM

Bob Thatcher
I am confused - these seem contraditory goals.

And they are.  OTOH, if rail lubrication is balanced with the need for traction, there's money to be saved.  It also depends on the tightness of the curve.

Pay a visit to Deshler sometime (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5eIj7-j0is} and listen to the singing as trains traverse the transfers (wyes), especially heavily loaded cars like coil cars.

If you can get close enough to the rails (without trespassing), you will actually see flakes of metal from the rails and the wheels on such curves...

 

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Top Of Rail Lubrication
Posted by Bob Thatcher on Tuesday, February 4, 2020 9:59 PM

Within the "Fighting Rail Wear" article in the February 2020 Trains, it was mentioned that "low friction hampers tractive effort and braking..."  Later in the same article, the methods for lubricating the top of of the rail on curves (to reduce rail wear) are described.

I am confused - these seem contraditory goals.

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