So this is called sub-tropolis, it is a large former salt mine / limestone deposit that was turned in to a very large underground business center. And to answer what maybe your first question, no it is not nuclear war proof due to the massive ventilation system that exchanges air with the outside. A lot of companies have their disaster recovery site here though from headquarters around the country. Also pertainent to TRAINS Discussion Forum, it is served by a Webtec shortline and yes there are railroad spur lines that serve these caves as well as you can see from the locomotive underground with the WAMX reporting marks. There are quite a few manufacturing businesses in this former mine that depend on rail service (pretty cool....huh??......where do you see that elsewhere in the country?).
If I had to guess because I do not know for certain but I think the servicing railroad is Kansas City Terminal Railway? Just a guess. Someone that lives there might know better. I saw the three track main running through or next to the complex which is probably a collection of UP and BNSF railroad mains. Anyway, enjoy the videos....
Entering the complex (long video showing railroad access):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiPFYjvhvK8
Short marketing video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1YDufouqbY
I believe this is adjacent to the BNSF westward main lines toward emporia and Topeka.
Those limestone caves are all over KC. They used to store the "Lick and Stick" Postage stamps in a large one by the MO River.
So this is what they meant when they said that Lamar Hunt had gone underground?
SubTropolis
It's a neat idea, I'm sure that it works very well for many uses. Probably worth a trip to KC just to see this.
But I would have serious reservations with their claims of being "earthquake proof". How could you be certain?
Seems like an underground aquifer could be unleashed via an earthquake and cracks in the wall would lead to some mighty soggy regrets.
Convicted OneSeems like an underground aquifer could be unleashed via an earthquake and cracks in the wall would lead to some mighty soggy regrets.
The caves are above the water table and local river levels it seems from the triple track mainline view. The tracks are at cave entrance level and the caves only descend slightly from there. It is more like they are inside a bluff then underground......I think.
National Archives has a facility in SubTropolis along with BNSF. UP has a facility in another salt cave further north. Hopefully UP and BNSF do not go PSR stupid and throw some of that stuff out*, but rather make some of it more accessable.
mudchickenNational Archives has a facility in SubTropolis along with BNSF. UP has a facility in another salt cave further north. Hopefully UP and BNSF do not go PSR stupid and throw some of that stuff out*, but rather make some of it more accessable. * Both railroads pitched materials they should not have let go of during the 1990's mergers. It takes an act of god to retreive materials out of either site. Could have stopped several lawsuits with access to materials stored in the caves. Even their own lawyers are prevented from accessing some of the material stored there.
Railroads apply more security to property and use agreements than just about anything I know of.
When the department I was a part of had issues concerning the lease for the building we were operating a office out of - we could not get a copy of the lease, we had to 'sight unseen' identify the specific articles of the lease we needed to see. How can specific articles of a lease be evaluated on their own without understanding how those articles work in concert with the other articles of the lease. CSX in the early 80's, Lord only knows what it is like these days.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
There is also a similar type distribution center system south of Quincy, Il near a town called Marblehead, Il.
For the Kansas City facility there is a Utube video taken by a trucker going underground to make a delivery.
Ed
When does subtropolis get switched? day or night?
How far do the rail spurs go into the tunnels?
Finally, who switches the industrial park nex door?
JoeBlowFinally, who switches the industrial park nex door?
Assuming I've hit the mark at N 39.1635 W 94.47694, and assuming the mapping service that I use is accurate, it appears to be BNSF
JoeBlowHow far do the rail spurs go into the tunnels?
The graphics in their leasing brochure leave a lot to be desired, but if you look at the following partial site plan, I believe the dotted lines depict rail sidings.
Noteworthy, most of the blocks of space depicted on this sketch are not among the portions currently being offered as available. Either that's because they are already occupied (if so, then good for them), or because they have not yet been made into marketable areas (utilities, lights etc)
I'd love to see their ventilation system. With a big diesel belching exhaust deep into one of their caverns, you'd think OSHA would have some "air change" requirements to be reconned with.
Go in there with a gas engined anything and you won't come out.
(plus you will spook any miner in the hood)
Retired TunnelRat
Miningman can elaborate or correct me on this, but it is my understanding that diesels are preferred for underground operations because they do not produce a lot of carbon monoxide, unlike gasoline engines.
Propane or natural gas engines produce even less CO, but then you have the added risk of a gas explosion from a fuel leak.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
mudchickenGo in there with a gas engined anything and you won't come out. (plus you will spook any miner in the hood)
Forces one to think:
Just looking at the total cubic volume, and assuming a minimum of 4 air changes per hour....plus I'm sure there must be some form of redundancy required.
Dude-- Onky Diesel engines allowed to operate underground. Scoop trams, ore trucks, long hole drills, personnel carriers, geologists, survey crews, shift bosses and mine captains all zipping around drifts, x-cuts and ramps in Diesel powered Kubota's. Gasoline powered anything is 100% banned at all times, by Law and common sense.
Mine Ventilation is serious business and an entire department within engineering, with specialists and technologists working in Mine Ventilation only. There are special doors that seal off a Mine into sections and Diesel equipment is limited in numbers at any time.
You log in on a large panel sign and log out when you leave. Sometimes you cannot proceed down a ramp or enter an area until a piece of equipment comes out. So you wait in front of the doors, kind of akin to waiting in a siding.
2,000, 3,000 or 7,500 feet down any gasoline engine will result in carbon monoxide death.
Ventilation in a Mine is very robust and Diesel fumes are carried away fairly quickly, although I have seen the air blue with exhaust from a ballet of 4 scooptrams mucking out multiple drawpoints in a stope.
Ventilation is exceptional in an Uranium mine, with multiples of redundancy and each working area separately exhausted, it is not passed on down the line and then out.
If you get lost underground and get confused a good rule of thumb is to lick your finger and hold it up and feel the way the 'wind' is blowing and follow that... it will get you to the shaft where you can call for the cage.
MiningmanDude-- Onky Diesel engines allowed to operate underground.
Then how do you explain all the automobiles that are shown in the video. Somebody did not get the memo?
It's more like a ' tunnel' ... large surface openings on either end and obviously serious exhaust ventilation. The vehicles also could be all Diesel engined. You simply cannot run gasoline engines in any enclosed space.
Miningmana ballet of 4 scooptrams mucking out multiple drawpoints in a stope.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
The vehicles shown in the photograph are at an upfitter.
New vans, pickups, etc are brought from OEM manufacturer (GM, Chrysler, Ford, etc) and are "upfitted" for final delivery to the end user with interior racking and graphics.
Ok thanks MP173
Murphy Siding Miningman ...a ballet of 4 scooptrams mucking out multiple drawpoints in a stope.
Miningman ...a ballet of 4 scooptrams mucking out multiple drawpoints in a stope.
Picture a railway yard with a ladder track with 4 parallel tracks each ending with a bumper post/stop.
The 4 individual parallel tracks would be called an 'Ore Drive'. So ore drive 1, ore drive 2....and so on. At the end of the track at the bumper post would be the drawpoint. The drawpoint contains 'muck', which is broken ore or rock by blasting or other mechanical means.
Scooptrams are low clearance front end loaders with buckets ranging from 2cu/yds to 14cu/yds. They move down the ore drive to the drawpoints, dig in, and back out with a bucket full of muck ( blasted and broken ore). Basically the stope would be the entire area of mining operations.
So 4 scooptrams, mucking out 4 drawpoints. It is a ballet because they have to do it in such a fashion as to not interfere with each other when they reach the 'ladder track'. ( At some point the ore would then be dumped into an ore pass, which goes to the bottom level of the Mine in what is known as the loading pocket... from there it is hoisted to surface in a skip).
So picture 4 locomotives removing cars one a time from each of the 4 tracks and building a solid train somewhere else without interfering with each other. A ballet!
Well... I, for one, understood what you meant. But thanks for clarifying it for the others.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Miningman It's more like a ' tunnel' ... large surface openings on either end and obviously serious exhaust ventilation. The vehicles also could be all Diesel engined. You simply cannot run gasoline engines in any enclosed space.
If you go to 6:30--6:50; 11:47--12:15; 21:50-22:30; you will see some sedans and small suv's that I doubt have diesel engines and at other locations in the video, auto pass the truck. It looks like workers are parking their personal cars which the companies allow and the ventilation handles. A spill and or fire may be a problem.
MP173The vehicles shown in the photograph are at an upfitter
Definitely true MP173. The point I was hoping people would gather ....look at the treads on the tires. Definitely driven into the upfitters occupied location.
No skids or gurneys were injured in the making of that photograph.
For the heck of it, I superimposed the site plan for the entire Subtropolis site onto a Kansas City map, just to get an idea how far back into the catacombs their lease offerings stretch.
I'd post it here, but don't want to risk running afoul of the intellectual property police, ....but I will say that their penetration is substantial. Well north of Parvin Rd.
One of the spaces they are offering to lease is a 200,000 sq ft space boasting 18 dock-high loading doors, and this space is as deep into the catacombs as any they show on their drawings.
1. I doubt those 18 docks will be served exclusively by electric tow motors
2. Contemplating the advertised 17' ceiling height, that space alone is 3.4 million cubic feet of volume. You'd need a 60,000 cfm fan just to accomplish one complete air change per hour.
3. That's just one 200K sqft space, a fly on the elephant
Again repeating myself, I'd love to see their ventilation strategy.
I've been in that particular cave, it's very interesting. Called customer before entering to be sure I can get into the dock (space is very tight, and the rock is unforgiving to a trailer). One of those places where you can't have too many vehicles in the same place because you can't physically fit otherwise. Don't remember much about the ventilation, but the customer I went to with paper products was quite a ways back in, and gas vehicles were allowed in, the workers drove their own vehicles in. The front part has very few straight roads, as I got further back, it became more regular. There are similar caves in other parts of Missouri, Carthage and Springfield are two others that come to mind, those two are actually cold storage facilities if I remember correctly........
Randy Vos
"Ever have one of those days where you couldn't hit the ground with your hat??" - Waylon Jennings
"May the Lord take a liking to you and blow you up, real good" - SCTV
rvos1979 the customer I went to with paper products was quite a ways back in,
Thanks for sharing your first hand experience.
Is there any way you could make a reasonable guestimate what proportion is currently occupied vs vacant? a third? half? three quarters? etc.
As to caves, there was, sixty years ago, a cave near Walhalla, S.C. It was the start of a railroad tunnel that was not completed. Clemson University was using it to cultivate mushrooms.
Johnny
I have been there because a clients disaster recovery site was there. Many cars and trucks drive into that place. It has a very powerful dual but seperate ventilation system. The interior areas have their own HVAC and air exchange system that runs basically like any regular office. Exterior where the cars and trucks drive and park there is a constant breeze throughout the complex so the fumes from truck or car exhaust do not linger. It is better ventilated then most outdoor multilevel parking garages. Clearences are pretty tight on some of the roads inside the structure..
As for the rail service, you will have to ask someone that lives there but its my belief that the large KC railroads have contracted out most of their switching in city limits to Kansas City Terminal Railway. I stay in KC a lot and have yet to see a UP or BNSF switcher run by KC Union Station. It is always Kansas City Terminal Railway doing the switching. Now it might just be on the section of track I am observing but I kind of suspect it is across the city.
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