https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/train-derails-into-potomac-river-near-harpers-ferry/2190541/?fbclid=IwAR2uztqygR82cyLD78G8k6C4UfvnG2FDsaRzAOa7RIzIS519Fh6CP_072hc
Train crossing the river at Harper's Ferry derailed, several cars fell into the river. Was not the main line bridge, was the branch line bridge.
Grain empties headed from Winchester, VA to Brunswick, MD and then they would be taken back to their origin - most likely through Chicago.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
A case of stringlining? Or rail defect?
Electroliner 1935A case of stringlining? Or rail defect?
My GUESS - broken rail - it was in the low 20's to the teens when it happened.
There is a curve on that bridge. Broken rails on tangents are generally operated over without incident. Broken rails in curves CAN permit the rail ends to displace horizontally from each other.
Time will tell - and most likely we will never be advised of the official cause. No deaths, no Hazmat, no evacuations, no NTSB investigation.
From my experience - broken rails were highest in number on the first night or two of temperatures staying below freezing. Most were 'discovered' after a train moved out of a track occupancy circuit and the circuit stayed occupied on the Train Dispatchers model board. MofW and Signals would be dispatched to investigate. The track that this incident happened on is DARK. No track circuits.
View from Maryland Heights.
The video shows no failure of or damage to the track. Yes, it could be small enough that it doesn't show.
The story says the cars were empty.
The curve radius is roughly 300 feet.
It looks like stringlining to me. I would surely like to hear details about the rest of the train.
Ed
7j43kThe video shows no failure of or damage to the track. Yes, it could be small enough that it doesn't show. The story says the cars were empty. The curve radius is roughly 300 feet. It looks like stringlining to me. I would surely like to hear details about the rest of the train. Ed
If is is stringlining - that would mean the rear of the EMPTY train still had brakes applied when the head end started to move. The head end is facing a Absolute signal and the train may have been held for a higher priority movement on the main tracks.
How do you know all the cars in the train are empty? Was there a locomotive(s) further back in the train? If the train was held, how could there be a derailment caused by a rail failure? How do you know there was a rail failure?
For that matter, if a train of empties were long enough, it could still have enough friction to cause the stringlining.
I surely don't KNOW it was stringlining. But it looks more like that than a track failure. To me.
7j43k The video shows no failure of or damage to the track. Yes, it could be small enough that it doesn't show. The story says the cars were empty. The curve radius is roughly 300 feet. It looks like stringlining to me. I would surely like to hear details about the rest of the train. Ed
7j43k The curve radius is roughly 300 feet.
mudchicken 7j43k The curve radius is roughly 300 feet. (Where'd you get that from? A 19+ degree main track curve?)
7j43k
(Where'd you get that from? A 19+ degree main track curve?)
I scaled it from an overhead "satellite" view. Perhaps I mismeasured. What do you get?
I just did it again, from a different source, and got the same number. Actually, it was 333 feet; but I felt that my measurement methods didn't deserve that kind of accuracy, so I rounded to 300 feet.
I DID say "roughly".
7j43kHow do you know all the cars in the train are empty? Was there a locomotive(s) further back in the train? If the train was held, how could there be a derailment caused by a rail failure? How do you know there was a rail failure? For that matter, if a train of empties were long enough, it could still have enough friction to cause the stringlining. I surely don't KNOW it was stringlining. But it looks more like that than a track failure. To me. Ed
Concerning 'broken rail' - what part of GUESS didn't you comprehend. A guess I made BEFORE I came across the top down view from Maryland Heights.
Loaded grain trains come from the BNSF at Chicago with BNSF power to Brunswick. Upon arrival at Brunswick a crew with CSX power operates the train down to the customer at Winchester, VA. When the customer empties the train, a crew is called to bring the EMPTIES back to Brunswick for further movement back to the BNSF - most likely with the power that brought the train to Brunswick. The Shenandoah Sub west of Millville Quarry, doesn't like today's 6-axle locomotives.
Trains are normally on the order of 50 to 65 cars. The customer at Winchester can't handle any more in a single train, they can't handle multiple trains at the same time either.
It would be interesting if someone would give us the history of this bridge. It appears that originally there was a bridge to the north that may have only had a very gentle curve. A replacemnt bridge seems to have made this track a compound S curve ?
The line seems to have been a lot straighter in the past as those remnant supports across the water suggest, and if it was the railroad.
http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2019/12/21-csx-derailment-knocks-out-appalachian-trail-footbridge
- PDN.
BaltACD Concerning 'broken rail' - what part of GUESS didn't you comprehend. A guess I made BEFORE I came across the top down view from Maryland Heights.
Is there more than one part?
MiningmanThe line seems to have been a lot straighter in the past as those remnant supports across the water suggest, and if it was the railroad.
https://www.nps.gov/articles/harpers-ferry-to-south-mountain.htm
That footbridge is quite popular; I have seen many people on it as I passed through Harpers Ferry by train.
Johnny
Was the bridge that the engines are on then a replacement for the civil war destroyed bridge, which then was partially displaced by the double track bridge?
Leaving out the possibility of a cold weather rail failure (see Balt ACD), we can consider the possibility of:
1) engineer can't handle his train--he knew what he had, but he screwed up
2) other opperators caused the failure--another locomotive in the train, as operated by another engineer, did not properly intereact with the engineer
3) engineer was not correctly informed of the train he was to operate
other contributors gratefully accepted
7j43kLeaving out the possibility of a cold weather rail failure (see Balt ACD), we can consider the possibility of: 1) engineer can't handle his train--he knew what he had, but he screwed up 2) other opperators caused the failure--another locomotive in the train, as operated by another engineer, did not properly intereact with the engineer 3) engineer was not correctly informed of the train he was to operate other contributors gratefully accepted Ed
The 30+ miles from Winchester to Harpers Ferry is a territory that does not require anything other than normal head end power - loaded or empty - this was a empty train.
The airiel view of the incident leads me to believe that the train had been stopped at the Absolute Signal at Sandy Hook (absolute signal at the East End of the bridge). The way the cars are arranged makes it look like a 'string line' type derailment. For this to happen, I suspect the engineer started pulling 'hard' before the brakes released on the rear of the train. Without having a ground level picture - it LOOKS like the rear truck on the trailing engine is also derailed to the 'inside' of the curve.
Despite the incident happening in the 2AM - 3AM area - vandalism of someone turning a anglecock somewhere back in the train is a possibility, though at that hour of the morning it is rather unlikely.
I am not able to see the numbers of the engines involved. Six axle engines WITHOUT steerable trucks are PROHIBITED from operating anywhere on the Shenandoah Sub.
CSX rules require crews to have proper train documentation for their train prior to departing the origin of the train. If the Engineer 'didn't know' what was in his train - he is in violation of the requirement of having proper train documentation.
BaltACD Six axle engines WITHOUT steerable trucks are PROHIBITED from operating anywhere on the Shenandoah Sub.
What is a steerable truck? How does it work?
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
PJS1What is a steerable truck? How does it work?
If you look up 'radial truck' it's the same basic principle; Trains Magazine had a pretty good early explanation circa 1995 that I believe they provided free as a 'reprint' on the Web for many years and perhaps still do. The principle is also extensively discussed in Lionel Wiener's book on articulated locomotives.
The basic principle is that the leading and trailing axles of the truck itself have the ability to pivot so they can be better aligned as tangent to the line of the rail even in a sharp curve, and are then 'steered' by a system of levers so that the leading axle is correctly aligned relative to the truck frame.
Note that in the case if the later EMD HTCR-II trucks that the actual center less pivoting of the trucks relative to the frame can be actively controlled with elastomer-sandwich shear springs, which also give good lateral compliance.
The GE equivalent has those heavy outside levers that look like hinged boards. There is a patent that shows and describes how these are supposed to work. CSX has a fairly great number of engines with these, so they must be effective enough to preserve.
One practical effect of the 'usual' steering on a C truck is that the effective rigid wheelbase of the truck goes to zero. You can still hear a little flange squeal on short instances of excessive curvature but the usual kinds of curve noise are relatively absent.
There are designs for steerable-axle four-wheel trucks, although they do require somewhat more design complexity to work as intended. In most North Anerican practice a little additional controlled lateral provides most of the 'benefit' that steered axles would at the speeds involved for B trucks.
I'm sorry Dr. Track (buslist) is no longer with us, as he could have provided much more detailed information, including true best practices for two-axle steering.
Someone please enlighten me regarding terminology About track curvature.
This I how I understand it:
A 300' radius curve, if continued around 360 degrees to form a circle, that circle would have diameter of 600'. Which would be a very tight railroad curve. Correct?
A 5-degree curve, in the space of 100 ft, will change direction by 5 degrees. Correct?
Shenandoah Sub reopened.
https://www.facebook.com/pete.darmody/videos/pcb.2720234538037870/10217066029871750/?type=3&theater
An old RR surveyers eyeball says this is a 2-3 degree curve. Probably train handling is responsible for this one.
diningcar An old RR surveyers eyeball says this is a 2-3 degree curve.
An old RR surveyers eyeball says this is a 2-3 degree curve.
I suggest you scale off of an overhead view, as I did:
Using Googlemaps satellite view, I zoomed in until I was on the 50 foot scale. On the screen, the radius of the curve is approximately 5 inches. The length of the 50 foot scale is 3/4 inch.
5 / .75 = 6.7 units
Since each unit represents 50 feet, the curve radius is:
6.7 x 50 = 335 feet
As I said, this is an approximate method, so carrying accuracy to 3 decimals is pushing it. The radius is roughly 300 (one decimal place). It is certainly not over 450 feet. And certainly not under 250 feet.
But it is nowhere near 2-3 degrees, which is approximately a 2000-3000 foot radius.
If you care to go through my method yourself and point out my error, I would appreciate it. Nobody likes to be wrong.
PS: I have since scaled off of a USGS topo map, and also got approximately 300 feet.
Lithonia OperatorSomeone please enlighten me regarding terminology About track curvature.
There have been two functionally equivalent definitions, historically. One is the radius required to sweep 100 feet of curve in N degrees, the other is the radius required to sweep a 100-foot chord on a curve N degrees. For all intents and purposes, at least with respect to 1:1 scale railroading, they are the same measure. In general, you can use the formula D= 5730/R where R is in feet and D is in degrees with R>300 feet putting the difference between the "chord method" answer and the approximation less than 1/10 degree, less than 1/100 degree when R>800 feet.
DC or Mudchicken can illuminate how surveyors use this to stake or measure curves, and if you are really masochistic, you can ask about horizontal spirals into and out of curves (or why passenger cars don't jerk you out of your seat when going into a curve).
Here is a handy degree-radius conversion chart:
Lithonia OperatorSomeone please enlighten me regarding terminology About track curvature. This I how I understand it: A 300' radius curve, if continued around 360 degrees to form a circle, that circle would have diameter of 600'. Which would be a very tight railroad curve. Correct? A 5-degree curve, in the space of 100 ft, will change direction by 5 degrees. Correct?
On the second: For railroads, the 100.00 ft. is measured on a chord - the actual arc distance is a little more (depends on how sharp the curve is).
For highways and other general civil engineering applications, the 100.00 ft. is measured along the arc/ curve (the chord distance is a little less).
(There's a difference between 100 and 100.00 feet, so I'm respecting that.)
Above applies to North American practice (and likely S. America, too); not familiar with the details of how it's done in other parts of the world.
Separately - sometimes a good way to figure out the degree (radius) of a curve is:
1. Extend the two tangents to where they intersect near the middle of the curve.
2. Measure the angle with a protractor - angles are not subject to the same kinds of scaling error, just interpolation.
3. Measure the distance from the same points as you meaured the angle with the protractor. This should be measured along the curve, not the 'shortcut' (chord) between the ends. This is subject to scaling error, but as a much smaller percentage.
4. Divide angle from 2 above by the distance from 3 above to obtain the angle turned in each 100 ft. = degree of curve. NOTE: This is crude enough that it doesn't matter whether you want the chord definition (railroad) or arc definition (highway) - it's not precise enough to differentiate between them. Said another way, it's approximate for either one.
5. Divide 5,730 by the degree of curve to get the radius in feet (same note applies).
Just from looking at the Google Maps Satellite View - the nominal "50 ft." bar scale, about 1" = 75' on my computer monitor - it seems there's a real kink in the curve at the SW end of the bridge (also a fairly tight S-curve just to the SW of that). I could believe Degree of Curvature in the 12 - 15 degree range for the location of the derailment. A quick look at the Multimodalways archive didn't find any track charts for this area under either B&O or CSX archives, but I could have missed it.
Paul_D_North_Jr A quick look at the Multimodalways archive didn't find any track charts for this area under either B&O or CSX archives, but I could have missed it.
I did a web search under several terms and came up with zilch as well. That would be the ultimate resource, however.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
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