OvermodI didn't think then, and don't think now, that Gould would have had all that much success in 'bleeding' large amounts of regulated traffic from other combinations of carriers with his 'true transcontinental'.
Ever consider that the "transcontinental" could have been used as leverage to distinguish Gould's line from the other trunks running East coast to Chicago? (compared to his competitors who could only offer a "friendly connection")
The PRR went to great lengths to thwart Gould's challenge, personally I doubt they would have gone to the extent that they did if they felt comfortable being as dismissive as you appear to be.
Overmod and that, in fact, he came within a very close number of miles of actually pasting such a line together under his control. I will have to look in sources I no longer have copies of to confirm this, but at least some of the lines in what became the 1931 'incarnation' of the Alphabet Route were a significant Eastern part of that exercise
FWIW, I think that you and I agree on most of the relevant points here, we just have a different perspective on his motive(s).
In addition to what has already been mentioned, I often wonder if this southern routing was part of a strategy intended to replace the Canadian route?
SD70DudeWeren't those few miles in the Pittsburgh area?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabash_Pittsburgh_Terminal_Railway#History
OvermodWhat I remember is that they were considerably further west and south -- not in the Pittsburgh area at all. I would certainly defer to anyone with better memory of that era.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gould_transcontinental_system
So WM's Connellsville Extension was the final piece.
BackshopSo WM's Connellsville Extension was the final piece.
It was intended to be - however the construction costs along with the 1907 financial Panic did Gould in.
I might note, that since the B&O and P&LE had the water level grades from Pittsburgh to Connellsville, one on each side of the river - the P&WV had to construct its route on the ridge line. they were forced to build long, high and expensive bridges that ran from ridge top to ridge top spaning the multitudinous streams that made their way to the river.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Was there ever any real opportunity for the Panhandle to end up as anything other than it did? Looking back through it's history, it seems (with few exceptions) as though the PRR has been the straw that stirred the drink from very early on.
Sure there were myriad entities that started up by building connecting segments, but to my view its hard to envison most of them becoming anything other than what eventually became of them.
I have no intent of being dismissive; my point was that it seemed to me unlikely that Gould's transcontinental, built as it was, would be physically able to take large amounts of traffic away from more heavily capitalized and built-out railroads. I do confess that I wish he'd been able to succeed, but I also think that the Reading Combine shouldn't have been quashed (and the B&O not subsequently stuck under PRR control and relatively impoverished, and Morgan's railroad guy not die early, and the Hampden Railroad allowed to operate) so I am not precisely a poster child for the immutability of historic railroad evolution...
Tell me in detail why you think Gould's transcon was pointed at a Canadian system (I presume CP). Would they have been primary competitors for 'land bridge' service from Pacific ports going to Europe? Interesting to consider where things might have gone if ownership of production hadn't been illegalize S for railroads in 1906 and then economic activity depressed in 1907...
Nor, I assure you, was it my intent to demean you in any way by calling you "dismissive"...it just appeared that you felt "no way, jose" based upon your comments, so "dismissive" seems like an appropriate descriptor.
Gould's Wabash ran up through Canada, with it's eastern terminus barely in New York state. As far as an East coast to Chicago trunk line goes, I personally believe this route left a little bit to be desired.
And I believe he intended to remedy that shortcoming by rerouting thru Connellsville. Granted, it's possible that he intended to continue to operate both routes...but I personally doubt it. I think that Connellsville was a way for him to cut the cord with the Canadians.
As far as "land bridge to europe" goes...I've never thought that to be part of his ambition(s)
Moving manufactured goods and commodities from the industries of the east to points out in the western frontier sounds more likely. Making both his transcon as well as Chicago destinations he would want to offer.
Why was it known as the Panhandle Route?
Because it cut across the WV panhandle going west from Pittsburgh.
Thanks.
"Western Transportation Company" was incorporated by the Pennsylvania Railroad in 1856. Through a series of legal maneuvers (including a foreclosure) in 1868 it's holdings were combined with other connected entities to form the Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, & St Louis Railway.
I don't know how big a share of the whole pie that gave PRR, but I suspect enough to be in control of their own destiny.
I wonder if NS misses the Panhandle? Going from Pennsylvania to St. Louis requires them to go north thru Cleveland.
MidlandMike I wonder if NS misses the Panhandle? Going from Pennsylvania to St. Louis requires them to go north thru Cleveland.
There is likely some more complicated reason for relative disinterest by PRR in going through St. Louis with bridged freight business once any passenger business started dying on the vine. In my opinion the connections to the west are fairly wretched, and in the case of the Merchants Bridge hard to reach from the east, and only very recently has there been concerted effort and planning to fix that. It always seemed obvious to me that a connection via the Panhandle and St.Louis shaved substantial time and congestion concerns off a handoff from certain Western railroads to the high-speed infrastructure from Enola east including via the A&S. Instead we see all sorts of withering and abandonment. Fort Wayne I can understand as being a high-speed passenger line without any real purpose, especially after Amtrak, and PC was certainly not going to have its counterpart to a Super C even if that business model could have paid better in the East.
Backshop MidlandMike I wonder if NS misses the Panhandle? Going from Pennsylvania to St. Louis requires them to go north thru Cleveland. Interesting question, which brings up another one...has St Louis lost a lot of its railroad importance? With both the old B&O and PRR St Louis lines being mostly abandoned, I'd say a qualified "yes".
Interesting question, which brings up another one...has St Louis lost a lot of its railroad importance? With both the old B&O and PRR St Louis lines being mostly abandoned, I'd say a qualified "yes".
The reality is that St. Louis is not the junction between East & West that it once was. With there nominally being two carriers in the East and two in the West. Only one of the Eastern carriers has St. Louis as their Western Terminus, CSX. NS still operates the old Wabash line to Kansas City and that is their Western Terminus.
In the world of PSR, division of revenues for through shipments ends up setting the routing for most of the hauling.
St. Louis is still one busy place, especially on the east side of the river. (Spent plenty of time assisting NS with their ongoing expansion efforts west of Decatur and undoing some pretty poor engineering efforts by Wabash and Gould era blunders playing keep-away.)... The two "union" railroads in town are solid evidence that the place is plenty busy.
(NS still has an "island" at Des Moines and a joint line with BNSF (old CB&Q) to get there. Had things been a little different, the line to Omaha might still exist)
I think there still is a decent amount of chemical business that "comes onto the property" in St Louis for NS.
That explains the current role for St. Louis. It isn't much of an East-West gateway anymore but serves more as a gateway between the East and Texas.
Frequently the (mostly) chemical trains headed East on the former Wabash through Indiana would still have UP power on them. I only say "would" because it's been about 10 years since I looked closely enough to keep track of it.
BaltACDBackshop MidlandMike I wonder if NS misses the Panhandle? Going from Pennsylvania to St. Louis requires them to go north thru Cleveland. Interesting question, which brings up another one...has St Louis lost a lot of its railroad importance? With both the old B&O and PRR St Louis lines being mostly abandoned, I'd say a qualified "yes". The reality is that St. Louis is not the junction between East & West that it once was. With there nominally being two carriers in the East and two in the West. Only one of the Eastern carriers has St. Louis as their Western Terminus, CSX. NS still operates the old Wabash line to Kansas City and that is their Western Terminus. In the world of PSR, division of revenues for through shipments ends up setting the routing for most of the hauling.
MidlandMike I wonder if NS misses the Panhandle? Going from Pennsylvania to St. Louis requires them to go north thru Cleveland. Interesting question, which brings up another one...has St Louis lost a lot of its railroad importance? With both the old B&O and PRR St Louis lines being mostly abandoned, I'd say a qualified "yes".
How much traffic does NS carry on it's Louisville-St.Louis route?
What I see is a large hollowing out of the central appalachian area (SE Ohio, Eastern KY, Eastern Tennesse, West VA) as far as rail traffic is concerned. The majority of which was coal.
A point to remember is that while we have been mainly discussing St Louis in relation to connections with the northeast, NS's Louisville-St Louis line was Southern.
I find it noteworthy that NS does not have it's own line between Columbus and Pittsburgh that could serve as part of a St Louis-Pittsburgh route, via Cincinnati. They've got trackage rights, ....but It would be useful to understand how often they use those rights, and for what traffic.
Isn't the CSX line from St Louis to Cincinnati the route that I hear so many people bemoaning it's demise?
Could just be that the former Wabash for NS and the former Conrail line for CSX adequately serve this corridor?
NS cut loose the former Cloverleaf and the former Wabash line between St Louis and Chicago...as well. Sure looks like demand between St Louis and points east is only a fraction of what it once was.
Backshop A point to remember is that while we have been mainly discussing St Louis in relation to connections with the northeast, NS's Louisville-St Louis line was Southern.
But how much traffic did that line historically see? I think I've seen more PRR reference for Louisville via Indianapolis, and I always thought of that being extended west to Chicago, not St. Louis. Was there a market in regulated days for freight from St. Louis across to the L&N south?
OvermodWas there a market in regulated days for freight from St. Louis across to the L&N south?
The Tennessee-Tombigbee waterway might have cut into some of that traffic
Convicted One I find it noteworthy that NS does not have it's own line between Columbus and Pittsburgh that could serve as part of a St Louis-Pittsburgh route, via Cincinnati. They've got trackage rights, ....but It would be useful to understand how often they use those rights, and for what traffic. Isn't the CSX line from St Louis to Cincinnati the route that I hear so many people bemoaning it's demise? Could just be that the former Wabash for NS and the former Conrail line for CSX adequately serve this corridor? NS cut loose the former Cloverleaf and the former Wabash line between St Louis and Chicago...as well. Sure looks like demand between St Louis and points east is only a fraction of what it once was.
If the Panhandle hadn't been abandoned/sold off in the PC/Conrail era, NS would have a two-track Pittsburgh-Columbus direct line. Now they route traffic NE through Ohio and down the ex Pennsy Bellvue to Columbus line.
The ex B&O from Cincy to St Louis isn't dead yet, CSX is actually routing some traffic East from Seymour, IN after going North on the ex PRR Louisville-Indianapolis Line. West of Seymour, the scrappers are filling their acytlene tanks.
I agree St. Louis rail traffic is down, just like traffic everywhere. Fewer tracks can handle what is left.
rrnut282 Pennsy tried to route more freight West of Pittsburg on the Panhandle line rather than the shorter, straighter, Fort Wayne line. Conversely, the premier passenger trains favored the Fort Wayne Line for fast running. Even so, there are rumors that there were 100 trains a day through Fort Wayne in the day. Imagine if they shoe-horned all the extra freight trains (and some passenger) from the PanHandle. That is a lot to stuff on a double main. Trains would be following on approach indications all the way most of the day. When would maintainers get anything done? They would have had to at least triple-track the line from Mansfield to Chicago to keep things moving somewhat.
Pennsy tried to route more freight West of Pittsburg on the Panhandle line rather than the shorter, straighter, Fort Wayne line. Conversely, the premier passenger trains favored the Fort Wayne Line for fast running.
Even so, there are rumors that there were 100 trains a day through Fort Wayne in the day. Imagine if they shoe-horned all the extra freight trains (and some passenger) from the PanHandle. That is a lot to stuff on a double main. Trains would be following on approach indications all the way most of the day. When would maintainers get anything done? They would have had to at least triple-track the line from Mansfield to Chicago to keep things moving somewhat.
Convicted One ncandstl576 How would things have developed had the Pennsy never got their hands on the line? It seems the Panhandle would be a very attractive purchase for the Van Sweringens. I recall reading somewhere that PRR acquired control of the line mostly to prevent the line from falling into the hands of competitors, and that the cost of doing so impacted the bottom line of PRR to the extent that it limited the ability to invest in other higher growth opportunities elsewhere. Birds that came home to roost decades later as highway freight traffic rose and the cost to maintain parallel routes became burdensome. So who knows? One possible outcome could be that the PC merger never became necessary, and the PRR today might be known as the Pittsburgh, Santa Fe, & Western. (**ducks for cover**)
ncandstl576 How would things have developed had the Pennsy never got their hands on the line? It seems the Panhandle would be a very attractive purchase for the Van Sweringens.
I recall reading somewhere that PRR acquired control of the line mostly to prevent the line from falling into the hands of competitors, and that the cost of doing so impacted the bottom line of PRR to the extent that it limited the ability to invest in other higher growth opportunities elsewhere. Birds that came home to roost decades later as highway freight traffic rose and the cost to maintain parallel routes became burdensome.
So who knows? One possible outcome could be that the PC merger never became necessary, and the PRR today might be known as the Pittsburgh, Santa Fe, & Western. (**ducks for cover**)
The Pennsy's investment in mutlitracking of the Ft. Wayne Line would have been more sound than buying the Panhandle.. Sometimes you just have to scratch your head about historic purchases.. I still get irritated about the Penn Central even though it was before my time..
Hindsight is always 20/20. As has been mentioned above, corporate ego may have been a factor in the lease of the Pan Handle, considering that B&O had its own line to St. Louis and NYC had leased the Big Four. That being said, obtaining a route to St. Louis may have been a smart move at the time.
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