As to the N&W, when I was in Bristol in the mid-50's, the signals were position light, jsut as the PRR''a were. I first noticed CPL on the N&W in December of 1959. I do not know for certain, but I would not be surprised to learn that when the change was made, the PL heads were used, without a center light.
Johnny
DeggestyI first noticed CPL on the N&W in December of 1959.
Is that B&O-style color position light, or N&W's adoption of red for the lights in a PRR-style 'stop' aspect on an otherwise-yellow position-light head?
To my knowledge, N&W never had position-light signals that would show color in either approach or permissive (45 degree or vertical). Enlighten me if otherwise.
Amtrak of course has a version of color position light increasingly across the NEC. That's different too.
Here on the A&WP CSX signals are supposed to be all speed signals. However the subdivision signals between LaGrange and Atlanta have the signals as routing and it is rather simple with a few exceptions. When a train approaches a siding the signal mast has three heads. The top is standard 3 light green /yellow/ red. The second head is a two light yellow / red. The lower head is red/ green / white.
If train is cleared on the main aspect is green over red over red or if has to stop at end of siding is Y over red over red. If main route is restricting signal is R /R/W. if main is clear + 1 block beyond next mast it is blinking Y/r/r.
If train is going into siding and to stop at end of siding signal is R/Y/R. If going into occupied siding it is R/Y/W ( diverting restricting )(have not observed).
If train is going into siding and lined to exit siding at other end signal is R/Y/G or R/Y/Blinking green.
Now at LaGrange the tracks are 2 main tracks so the middle head has three bulbs G/Y/R. If The train is on a main and goes to either main beyond signal is R/G/R or R/Y/R . diverting onto other main may give R/Y/W if main is occurpied beyond mast. R/G/R)if it is clear beyond next signal or R/Y/R if stopping at next signal.
The signals exiting a sidings are as follows . The main track signal mast head is G/Y/W/R. When any part of train is in CP head displays R. Once train out of CP if there is to be a following train displays W until train exits block beyond CP then Y and then exiting next block G. A future change is pending with the main track exiting mast will have the 4 light signal head over some two light turned aside head ( colors and fuction unknown) All subdivision main track siding exit masts are getting this applied starting 6 months ago then nothing but just now equipment boxes are showing up. Also just noticed that additional orange poly conduit is being installed from mast to bungalow. Wonder if some kind of enhanced PTC?
The exiting siding mast has a single light head on top (R) over a 4 light head on botton G/Y/W/R which has same functions as main track mast.
Overmod Deggesty I first noticed CPL on the N&W in December of 1959. Is that B&O-style color position light, or N&W's adoption of red for the lights in a PRR-style 'stop' aspect on an otherwise-yellow position-light head? To my knowledge, N&W never had position-light signals that would show color in either approach or permissive (45 degree or vertical). Enlighten me if otherwise. Amtrak of course has a version of color position light increasingly across the NEC. That's different too.
Deggesty I first noticed CPL on the N&W in December of 1959.
Thanks for all that info, blue streak. Very interesting. That explains a lot.
Before I was moved out to Lithonia, I was at Atlanta Yard, aka Hulsey Yard. Mostly I worked as a yard clerk, but for a while I had a relief job where a couple of evenings a week I was operator in a small room in the yard office. I would take orders for trains going east over the GARR, and also westbounds going out over the A&WP.
Are you a CSX engineer or conductor on the former A&WP, or just a very well-informed railfan?
Is the section from West Point to Montgomery called the "WofA Subdivision," or in any way references the old WofA?
Lithonia OperatorThanks for all that info, blue streak. Very interesting. That explains a lot. Before I was moved out to Lithonia, I was at Atlanta Yard, aka Hulsey Yard. Mostly I worked as a yard clerk, but for a while I had a relief job where a couple of evenings a week I was operator in a small room in the yard office. I would take orders for trains going east over the GARR, and also westbounds going out over the A&WP.... Is the section from West Point to Montgomery called the "WofA Subdivision," or in any way references the old WofA?
Before I was moved out to Lithonia, I was at Atlanta Yard, aka Hulsey Yard. Mostly I worked as a yard clerk, but for a while I had a relief job where a couple of evenings a week I was operator in a small room in the yard office. I would take orders for trains going east over the GARR, and also westbounds going out over the A&WP....
From the Stonewall Connection at Union City to Montgomery it is the A&WP Sub. It is Dispatched by the Dispatcher that also operates the Lineville Sub from Manchester to Parkwood.
From Chattanooga to Elizabeth is the W&A Sub. If the line to Montgomery would have been called the WofA Sub, the only thing I can foresee is mass confusion.
The Atlanta Terminal Dispatcher handles all 5 routes entering Atlanta for about 20 miles or so on each line.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Thanks, Balt.
Are you talking Elizabeth NJ? What does W&A stand for?
This Elizabeth is in Georgia and it has been formally part of Marietta since 1995.
The Western & Atlantic should be famous to nearly all rail fans as 'the route of the General' - site of the great railroad chase in the Andrews raid during the Civil War.
I had brain failure. Obviously a division or a sub could not reach from Alabama to New Jersey! I have never heard of the Georgia Elizabeth. But living in Atlanta, I knew Marietta well. At that time that was L&N territory.
Yes, THAT W&A I am familiar with. Did not imagine it being memorialized like that, it being from so long ago.
When I was a kid in Missisippi, I rode behind what was either the restored General or a replica thereof, from Gulfport to Bay St.Louis. My very charming and pretty mom pulled me out of school that day, and finagled that ride for me. I think I was the only kid on that special train, on that leg. Pretty exciting! My mom chased the train, shooting 16mm movies with my dad's camera, after a crash course on its use. My mom initiated the whole thing. She was like that. She read about the train's coming, and decided she needed to get me on it. IIRC, there were 2-3 vintage coaches, and the train had no diesel "emergency helper." I was 9 or 10 at the time.
From what I remember, in 1969 most N&W main-line signals were straight position-light signals, all yellowish-white, just as PRR's were. The change to quasi B&O-style color-position came later. using the same heads as the straigiht position-ligiht signals.
But straight-position-light is alive and well in Jerusalem:
Deggesty Overmod Deggesty I first noticed CPL on the N&W in December of 1959. Is that B&O-style color position light, or N&W's adoption of red for the lights in a PRR-style 'stop' aspect on an otherwise-yellow position-light head? To my knowledge, N&W never had position-light signals that would show color in either approach or permissive (45 degree or vertical). Enlighten me if otherwise. Amtrak of course has a version of color position light increasingly across the NEC. That's different too. I was not around the N&W very much after the summer of 1959. From what I did see, it seemed that the heads themselves were the same, with no center light, and green lights, yelow lights, and red lights in the proper position. I wish now that I taken better notice of the signals when I rode in a dome most of the way from Cncinnati to Norfolk in the spring of 1969, and the short time I spent in a dome when going overnight from Roanoke to CIncinnati in the fall of 1969.
I was not around the N&W very much after the summer of 1959. From what I did see, it seemed that the heads themselves were the same, with no center light, and green lights, yelow lights, and red lights in the proper position. I wish now that I taken better notice of the signals when I rode in a dome most of the way from Cncinnati to Norfolk in the spring of 1969, and the short time I spent in a dome when going overnight from Roanoke to CIncinnati in the fall of 1969.
N&W was in part owned by the PRR, thus the N&W, when the time came. adopted PRR signaling practices. The monetary dividends that N&W were paying was one of the elements that kept PRR in the black for as long as they did, before entering into the Penn Central debacle.
I have found one definite error in this Solomon book. On pgs. 111-112, there is chart with signal aspects and the relevant NORAC rules. For Medium Approach Medium, Rule 283-A, it states that the train must proceed at "maximum" speed thru interlocking and spring switches, etc., etc.
This did not seem right, so I checked it against the NORAC rules online. It should be "medium" speed.
I think there are some other errors in the book, TBH. In one example, IIRC, the scenario involved a northbound train; in one case it says the train gets authority from a "northward" signal, then later the same NB train heeds a "southward" signal. It seems like that must be a mistake also.
But overall, it is a decent book, IMO.
BaltACD Lithonia Operator The more I explore this, the more I realize there are myriad ways signaling is done, so my questions, like the one above, often demand answers too involved for a web forum. But here's a more bite-sized one. I see that one of the various ways to indicate clear is just one green light; but a green over two reds means the same thing. Which begs the question, why not use just the lone green? What are the two reds telling us, that somehow complements the green on top? The multiple head signals are able to display more indications. The configuration of signal at any particular location are dictated by all the situations those signals must cover. As you read through ALL the signal indications, you will notice that there are numerous indications where there are different colors displayed on each of the signal heads. A 'dark' signal head, where there are multiples, is considered as a improperly displayed signal and the crew must operate in accordance with the understanding that that signal is displaying it's Most Restrictive indication. For a signal with Number Plate - the most restrictive is Restricted Proceed. For a signal Without a Number Plate - the most restrictive is STOP.
Lithonia Operator The more I explore this, the more I realize there are myriad ways signaling is done, so my questions, like the one above, often demand answers too involved for a web forum. But here's a more bite-sized one. I see that one of the various ways to indicate clear is just one green light; but a green over two reds means the same thing. Which begs the question, why not use just the lone green? What are the two reds telling us, that somehow complements the green on top?
But here's a more bite-sized one. I see that one of the various ways to indicate clear is just one green light; but a green over two reds means the same thing. Which begs the question, why not use just the lone green?
What are the two reds telling us, that somehow complements the green on top?
The multiple head signals are able to display more indications. The configuration of signal at any particular location are dictated by all the situations those signals must cover.
As you read through ALL the signal indications, you will notice that there are numerous indications where there are different colors displayed on each of the signal heads. A 'dark' signal head, where there are multiples, is considered as a improperly displayed signal and the crew must operate in accordance with the understanding that that signal is displaying it's Most Restrictive indication.
For a signal with Number Plate - the most restrictive is Restricted Proceed. For a signal Without a Number Plate - the most restrictive is STOP.
A dark head on a multi-head signal may not be improperly displayed. One needs to look at the signal rules in effect. Some combinations may allow a dark head on one or more signal heads.
signals.jovet.net/rules/UPRR%20Signal%20Rules.pdf
Jeff
Lithonia Operator I have found one definite error in this Solomon book. On pgs. 111-112, there is chart with signal aspects and the relevant NORAC rules. For Medium Approach Medium, Rule 283-A, it states that the train must proceed at "maximum" speed thru interlocking and spring switches, etc., etc. This did not seem right, so I checked it against the NORAC rules online. It should be "medium" speed. I think there are some other errors in the book, TBH. In one example, IIRC, the scenario involved a northbound train; in one case it says the train gets authority from a "northward" signal, then later the same NB train heeds a "southward" signal. It seems like that must be a mistake also. But overall, it is a decent book, IMO.
The biggest thing that sticks out to me in Solomon's book is in the cab signal section. The part about 'in theory' engineers could operate strictily according to the speed dictated by signal indication. It implies that operating on an approach aspect cab signal you wouldn't need to reduce to restricted speed, let alone be prepared to stop at the next signal/cab signal change point, until the cab signal changed to restricting. That's how you run into things stopped just beyond the signal/cab signal change point.
UP has at least one line equipped with cab signals (one direction only since trains normally only run in one direction on this line) but not wayside signals. They do have signs designating the cab signal change points, a.k.a. block boundries.
The old CNW ATC two aspect system (before waysides were installed) had a train operating on clear until the cab signal went to restricting. In that case, when encountering the restricting, the train ahead was 2 blocks ahead. Had there been waysides, it would be like encountering an approach, with the next block ahead of it being occupied. The block boundries weren't marked, but crews running the line every day would eventually learn and know where the boundries were.
I used to know where they were, but with the addition of waysides, I've since forgotten most of them. The wayside signals added by the UP do not always line up with the old block boundries. They changed the block lengths in many places.
Lithonia Operator Thanks for all that info, blue streak. Very interesting. That explains a lot. Before I was moved out to Lithonia, I was at Atlanta Yard, aka Hulsey Yard. Mostly I worked as a yard clerk, but for a while I had a relief job where a couple of evenings a week I was operator in a small room in the yard office. I would take orders for trains going east over the GARR, and also westbounds going out over the A&WP. Are you a CSX engineer or conductor on the former A&WP, or just a very well-informed railfan? Is the section from West Point to Montgomery called the "WofA Subdivision," or in any way references the old WofA?
blue streak 1 Lithonia Operator Thanks for all that info, blue streak. Very interesting. That explains a lot. Before I was moved out to Lithonia, I was at Atlanta Yard, aka Hulsey Yard. Mostly I worked as a yard clerk, but for a while I had a relief job where a couple of evenings a week I was operator in a small room in the yard office. I would take orders for trains going east over the GARR, and also westbounds going out over the A&WP. Are you a CSX engineer or conductor on the former A&WP, or just a very well-informed railfan? Is the section from West Point to Montgomery called the "WofA Subdivision," or in any way references the old WofA? OK not all the years are correct so others are welcome to chime in The Atlanta and West Point RR ( A&WP ) was started before the civil war. They got trackage right from the Central of Georgia RR ( C of Ga ) from downtown Atlanta to East Point Ga then on its own tracks slowly going thru Fairburn, Palmetto, Newnan, LaGrange, and to West Point Ga. At the same time Alabama had the law like many states that all RRs in the state had to be based in Alabama. So the Western railroad of Alabama ( WR of A )(shortened to WRA) ( Often causing confusion to the ATL - Chatanooga state of GA railroad Western and Atlanta RR {W of A later NC&SL }) was chartered to run from Montgomery to Lanett Alabama. Now Lanett and West Point are essentially one city with state line running down the middle of a main street. With the great guage discussions going on the two RRs did not have same guage so there was a big interchange of cargo and passengers at West Point meaning Lanett as well. Yard mostly in Lanett. That certainly did cause problem during the civil war for moving war goods and soldiers. During the big guage changes after the civil war the guage was all standardized. At Some time the Georgia railroad and banking company based in Atlanta bought both the RRs. Then the 2 RRs slowly mergered operations and even bought similar mostly identical equipment. All Passenger cars had West Point Route as the Banner along the top of all of the passenger cars. However each car had A&WP in smaller letters on one end and WRA or WR of A on other end. The RRs even had a one stall wooden loco house and ancillary equipment and offices in Lanett that still exists as a very small museum. The RR also connected in West Point Ga to the now abandoned Chattahoochee Valley Railway (CHV) shortline that quickly bent into Alabama northward to the ABA RR. Crews changed many years at West Point but finally ran thru ATL <<> Montgomery. Sometime before or After Georgia Railroad and Banking company bought A&WP they also purchased the Georgia RR. Note all equipment had unique numbers with none shared. The GA RR charter from the state had a provision that all routes with passenger service were exempt from property taxes. Bank triedd to get exemption added to A&WP without success. So many mixed trains on the GA routes continued to take advantage of that provision until CSX finally opted out.. A&WP had to use the Cof Ga yard in East Point but with the combining of ownership the bypass from Oakland Junction for freight to use Hulsey yard was built including ABS. That route had a local freight warehouse and sidings to transload freight just south of memorial drive in Atlanta. The route is now somewhat abandoned with all combined CSX operation. The Georgia group as the combined 3 was called had loco maintenance slowly for all three roads moved to Augusta and eventually a 4 loco maintenance building for diesels was built there. Freight operations were closely coordinated but for the reason that the south leg of the wye connecting Union Station and Terminal Station did not allow trains from GA and A&WP to easily acces the other station A&WP stayed at Terminal and Ga stayed at Union station. As far as I know no passenger cars were interchanged between stations however the Pullman company had a very large repair facility with a transfer table that was served by the Ga. How Pullman cars were routed by whom from Terminal station is unknown as A&WP, Cof Ga, SOU, and SAL all had terminating Pullan cars at Terminal station. As well ACL, Ga, NC& StL, and L&N all had terminating Pullman lines at Union Station. Do not know when but the A&WP and WRA became one subdivision with CSX crews from Tilford and Husley both going to Montgomery and Birmingham by way of LaGrange. Of course some crews change outside of Tilford for trains coming off the SAL sub from Athens. One more reason that delays Amtrak thru Howell CP. EDIT BTW to get back to this thread all signaling for all three roads was the same type including most signaling hardware as part of a box holding the masts. Now a CSX standard .
Thanks for all that, blue streak. Some of that knew, most I did not.
When I worked on the GARR, my wife and I once rode the mixed train from Atlanta to Augusta and back. It was one stainless steel coach in the consist of (more or less) through-freights. IIRC, it was trains 103/108. The coach was not very clean, and the dirty windows hard to see out of. GARR in no way encouraged people to ride. Most people didn't know the "service" even existed. But the conductor was friendly and we had fun. I believe at that point ('73-'74), riders were extremely rare. Extremely.
There is two mainly operating systems of signaling. AC and DC. The DC system was usually added to the communication line telegraph and telephone pole lines later. For expediency the signal system was added under the communications lines pole arms on a separate cross arm. The signal system pole arm would have the 4400 V (may have been different at some RRs ) power lines mounted on the end of the arm. Power lines were either 2 wire single phase or 3 wire 3 phase. No neutral. Then the DC signal lines would be placed on opposite sides of the cross arm. It could be just 3 wires out in the boonies but in locations where there were grade crossing with fixed distance activation there would be more wires ( usually 1 or 2 ) from isolation point to crossing signal bungalow. Then there would be more wires for special circumstances. This arragement was essentially on single track ABS with or without CTC.
When CTC was installed the 2 wires for CTC control would usually be placed on the power line side of the cross arm. At most locations where power was needed a small step down transformer would usually be mounted under the power line connecting to 2 of the phases of 4400 V power line. Old SP signal systems good example.
Now AC signaling on single track was different animal. SOU RR used mostly 3 light vertical heads. Sou RR had a separate pole line on opposide side of the tracks from the communication lines. As such they had three phase power on top in a triangle design ( no neutral ) . Cross arm for the 2 outside phases was rather short ( about 2 - 1/2 feet ). The phase positions were rotated about every mile (?) to reduce possible interferrence. That was to reduce and hopefully prevent AC signal hum on the communication lines. Then a cross arm was installed below the power lines to carry the AC signaling lines. Again usually 3 AC signaling wires but more at crossings and special circumstances. Very small Transformers were pole mounted just below power lines like power companys do today.
Almost forgot At sidings there would be an extra 1 or 2 wires between ends of sidings to activate an approach signal when block at far end had an approaching train. So if trains were approaching a siding from both directions both ends would show approach ( Y on three light masts and right diagonal on position masts ). an approching train would turn far signal at siding stop (red) once a train was between the siding and first signal before siding. On double track current of traffic sections there would be no signal lines needed except at grade crossing or other special locations . If CTC was added to the double track then a com line cross arm would be added if none existed with CTC wires. Many pictures of the SOU double tracks ATL - Alexander, VA show that configuration. How SOU did on its various other lines like the CHA - Cincinnatti ( CNO&TP ) sub is unknown though some subs used search light type signals.
A partial list of the systems similar to SOU was MP, T&P, Kiwi rail (maybe FEC ? ).
As Sou and other RRs installed the sonic type of grade crossing signals they used commercial power . That lessened the need for RR power and eventually power lines once new rail signaling was introduced on a line.
As late as 1951, the AGS and NO&NE still used upper quadrant semaphores. Standing at the back of #43, I enjoyed watching the NB signals clear as I traveled from Birmingham to New Orleans. As I recall, when the signals were upgraded, searchlight signals were installed.
Deggesty As late as 1951, the AGS and NO&NE still used upper quadrant semaphores. Standing at the back of #43, I enjoyed watching the NB signals clear as I traveled from Birmingham to New Orleans. As I recall, when the signals were upgraded, searchlight signals were installed.
Yes.. AGS ( Alabama Great Southern rr ) Chattanooga - Meridian, Ms and NONE ( New Orleans & North East ) Meridian - New Orleans. and just for grins SOU subsidiary LSO ( Louiana Southern Railway) New Orleans - south on east side of Mississippi.
Just a note to those interessted-there are a couple of series of videos on youtube that I found to be helpful in interpreting signals. One is Railroad Signals, reading and meanings, part 1: The basic three light system (4 segments) and How to Read CSX Signals (2 segments) and a few others that come up in a search. I found going through these a few time and relating this information to local signals to be very helpful. Experts might find errors in these but for a civilian they are very helpful.
PR
RKF, thanks for that info. I've only watched the very beginning of the first video so far, but it looks like that series will be very instructive.
Thanks to all for the great information. I will watch the YT video too when I get time. And thanks to those who answered my question about what aspects mean. This is all very confusing and glad the crew have it figured out. Have a FB friend who trained to be Amtrak conductor and she had to learn multiple stuff about signals, as they use many different roads to travel on and have to know them. Easier "back in the day" when passenger trains only traveled on their "home road" and only needed to know that one. I can see why a pilot engine is needed when you leave your usual route.
RKFarms Just a note to those interessted-there are a couple of series of videos on youtube that I found to be helpful in interpreting signals. One is Railroad Signals, reading and meanings, part 1: The basic three light system (4 segments) and How to Read CSX Signals (2 segments) and a few others that come up in a search. I found going through these a few time and relating this information to local signals to be very helpful. Experts might find errors in these but for a civilian they are very helpful. PR
It should be noted that his three head CTC description is speed signalling. Some use route signalling or a hybrid combination of both. He also, being a Canadian railroader uses Canadian rule book signal names.
A red over green over red (or just red over green) to me, and others, is a Diverging Clear. Proceed on diverging route, not exceeding the prescribed speed of the turnout (switch). We have places where the prescribed speed is up to 60 mph.
Jeff, you mentioned that there are two different combinations meaning Diverging Clear. Why would there be any more than one aspect needed for a particular meaning?
LO, are you talking R/G/R and R/G?
I see there is also a Diverging Clear Limited and Diverging Approach Clear Fifty as well ..
https://signals.jovet.net/rules/UPRR%20Signal%20Rules.pdf
rdamon LO, are you talking R/G/R and R/G?
Yes, because those are the ones Jeff mentioned.
Thanks ... Trying to play along at home .
blue streak 1Note had someone on old N&W RR state that signals were changed to the color lights when last trainman on each subdivision retired who was color blind. Could never confirm that statement ?
It is my understanding that the change to CPL signal heads on the N&W came about a short while after train #95 headed south ran into the side of northbound passenger train #2 that was hanging out of the siding at the south end of Cloverdale, Va. It was found that the governing southbound signal at the north end of Cloverdale siding had been worked on by a signal maintainer earlier in the day and that PL signal head actually fell down into a position that made the "Approach" indication look like a clear indication.
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DeggestyFrom what I did see, it seemed that the heads themselves were the same, with no center light, and green lights, yelow lights, and red lights in the proper position.
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