General Railroad Agency questions:• In the pre-computer railroad world (pre-1940s) I understand that railroad cars were logged into and out of stations (terminals/yards) via a process called Jumbo Books. May I ask if anyone can point me to where I can find more information about how Jumbo Books were used? What information was logged into them? {presumably some of the following}Car Initial & number, Local RR destination?Ultimate destination?Complete route?Commodity?Shipper?Consignee? More? Did every car get logged? Cabooses, MOW, D-I-T locos?When a car was left short of a terminal was it logged into a jumbo book? Were the waybill & bill of lading the ONLY documents kept by the railroad? i.e. was the inbound conductor’s wheel report a yards only record for this move? The waybill would leave with the car's departure. How long did it take to log a car into a yard? Out of the yard?Train ID? (including section and date?)Departure time? Presumably these books were periodically sent from the local yard to the Division HQ. Also then sent to Corporate HQ? Did anyone (Div or corporate HQ) follow each car through the jumbo books to see the car actually made It to the destination? At what point was a bill sent to the customer?
In my career 1965-2016 I never heard of a Jumbo Book.
The shipment of a car load of freight begins with the Shipper submitting a Bill of Lading to the railroad Agency at the point of shipment. The Agent prepares a Waybill for the car from the information contained on the Bill of Lading - various contract provisions of the Bill of Lading will be accepted or rejected by the Shipper one of which is if the shipment is 'Prepaid' or 'Collect'.
Once the Waybill is prepared, information will go to the 'serving yard' or serving local freight to pull the car from origin, the waybill will accompany the car. Upon arrival in the serving yard, the car will be shown on a 'Switch List' of it's arriving train - all cars on the train will have accompanying Waybills and the Switch List will be 'marked up' for the crew that will perform the function of switching the inbound cut of cars into appropriate outbound classification blocks. In accordance with the railroad's Schedule & Classification Manual those outbound blocks will either be picked up by a passing train (with the waybills for the pick up) or assembled into a originating train from the location (with waybills).
Conductors of the trains originating or picking up from a yard would then recieve from Yard Personnel a Train Consist Report that will list all cars in the train in train standing orders as well as the packed of waybills that correspond to each car in the train. As the train performs line of road work, cars that are set off will have their waybills left at a specified location, waybills for cars picked up can also be retrieved from that specified location - the Conductor will make the necessary adjustments to his Train Consist Report. If the train operates through a crew change location the Train Consist Report and Waybills are given to the outbound Conductor. If the train terminates at a yard, the Train Consist Report and Waybills are given yard personnel and used as the basis for a Switch List to break down the train and get cars moving to customers or to other trains.
The Agent at a car's destination will take the Waybill and use the information that is contained on it to prepare a Freight Bill that is then presented to the customer for payment (for collect shipments) or information (for prepaid shipments). Depending upon how the customer orders the car(s) handled within their industry it may be necessary for the Agent to subsequently issue bills for acessorial charges (demurrage, intraplant switching and a host of other potential charges).
Agents at both Origin and Destination present records of their transactions to headquarters along with requsite bank receipts for any money that has changed hands. When cars were interchanged between carriers a written report of the Interchange was created by the Agent at the Interchange Location - one copy to each road and one copy for the office record. Transfering Waybills between the carriers is a official part of the Interchange. Back in the 40's Interchange Per Diem charges were calculated on a daily basis with Midnight being the critical hour. Each carrier had a Car Accounting Office that manually handled the interchange reports and would calculate 'bills' between each carrier for each interchange.
Needless to say all these actions were labor intensive and involved and convoluted in some of their applications.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACDIn accordance with the railroad's Schedule & Classification Manual those outbound blocks will either be picked up by a passing train (with the waybills for the pick up) or assembled into a originating train from the location (with waybills). Conductors of the trains originating or picking up from a yard would then recieve from Yard Personnel a Train Consist Report that will list all cars in the train in train standing orders as well as the packed of waybills that correspond to each car in the train. As the train performs line of road work, cars that are set off will have their waybills left at a specified location, waybills for cars picked up can also be retrieved from that specified location
How common is it for a "passing train" to set off or pick up cars at intermediate points between it's origin and destination?
From my own uninformed perspective I thought that operations were more centralized where entire trains were built based upon the destination of their consist, with entire trains moving between major yards, and that locals handled deliveries to all intermediate locations .
To illustate what I am saying, if you had a block of cars in Chicago that are bound to Chattanooga, I would have imagined they along with the train they are built into, would travel all the way to Atlanta, and then get assembled into a Chattanooga bound train along with other cars headed to that destination.
Convicted OneTo illustate what I am saying, if you had a block of cars in Chicago that are bound to Chattanooga, I would have imagined they along with the train they are built into, would travel all the way to Atlanta, and then get assembled into a Chattanooga bound train along with other cars headed to that destination.
You are thinking more to what railroads are doing under the PSR of today than what they were doing in the 40's. The other thing that has to be understood - the Class 1's of the 40's are not the Class 1's of today. The NC&StL (aka the Dixie Line) ran between Nashville and Atlanta, with Chattanooga being their mid-point Terminal. The pickups and settofs made on line of road would be at locations where the 'resident locals' would accumulate business from their local area customers such as Dalton, Cartersville etc.
A train from Chicago would originate on the C&EI to Evansville, it would then operate on the L&N from Evansville to Nashville and then on the NC&St.L between Nashville and Atlanta and the intermediate point of Chattanooga. Each of those Independent Railroads had their own operating plans and Schedule & Classification systems.
I was an operator and a clerk in the early 70s. I have never heard of a Jumbo Book.
Now, the Official Guides in the 40s and 50s were massive. Could that term be slang for an OG?
Our operations were much as Balt describes. The waybill traveled with the car, physically. On a train they were in the possession of the conductor in the caboose. On arrival at our yard (Atlanta) the waybills were given to a clerk; from that a switch list was made, and the waybills went into cubbyholes in the yard office. When an outbound train was made up, I'd walk the cut, recording the car numbers. Then I'd pull the waybills, in order, make a stack, in order, and give it to the outbound conductor, along with the consist list.
And off they went.
Convicted OneHow common is it for a "passing train" to set off or pick up cars at intermediate points between its origin and destination?
In the age of these putative 'Jumbo Books', it's likely there were far more 'yards' involved for setouts of cuts of cars of 'main line' freights, and plenty of 'peddler' or 'way' freights to do all the intermediate deliveries, setouts at team tracks, etc. that finally 'place' cars at various customers. Steam road engines were usually not 'optimized' for doing switching work, and I suspect their crews would not be too keen on the additional stuff involved with setouts along the road.
The model you're describing did, indeed, exist. An additional consideration, though, was what was in that 'block of cars'. We've seen many examples over the years of a car that passes its destination at high speed one way, passes it again at lower speed, and finally gets 'drilled' to its location in a local. That represents the most efficient way for a railroad to get it there ... the more 'direct' way for one car most certainly not being the most cost-efficient for all the cars in a particular range of time taken together. Individual customers, of course, normally care only about their car, and their interactions with 'customer service' will likely be highly flavored by that perspective; they aren't concerned with railroad efficiency or procedures except insofar as they indirectly produce the lowest possible rate.
Note the further reference on p.75 (the second of the three links in the previous post) regarding the use of these page forms for 'Red Ball symbol' logging.
It can't be long before Mike comes up with an actual image of one of these forms, perhaps with data logged on it. Could the multimodalways site have something like this ... somewhere in all its wondrous storage?
Has anyone here heard of the use of "Camp Record" books?
Forget "needle in a haystack," I think Mike could find a needle in a cornfield!
Forum-meisters, could you PLEASE let "Wanswheel" come in from the cold?
I just figured with all the emphasis on cost control of labor, the railroad wouldn't want to be paying the long distance crew to be squirting around with a 10 car set out on a siding in podunk.....not to mention tying up the main for the duration.
Convicted OneI just figured with all the emphasis on cost control of labor, the railroad wouldn't want to be paying the long distance crew to be squirting around with a 10 car set out on a siding in podunk.....not to mention tying up the main for the duration.
Back in the day - pick ups and set offs were accomplished with 5 man crews much faster than they are today with 2 man crews.
Was working the B&O's Operator position at Vincennes, IN - Cincinnati 94, the main line maid of all work between E.St. Louis and Cincinnati - would make a set off and pick up at Vincennes, normally 10 or 12 cars of each - arrival until the markers were on the move 15 minutes or less. Watching the crew members position themselves and perform their required functions was like watching a ballet. Crews HOS was also 16 hours at that point in time, with Indiana having a 3rd brakeman law for trains of more than 69 cars.
I watch what I think are mainline trains come to the railyard in my area, uncouple some set of cars from the front of the train, leaving the remainder on the mainline. Pull the set of cars from the head end into an empty yard track, uncouple the engines to go out the other end, switch to another yard track and push a pre-assembled set of cars back to couple to the rest of the train on the mainline, and then continue on. A relatively simple operation, if all the cars to be left here are on the leading end of the train as it arrives, and the local yard crew has already assembled the cars destined to leave into a train.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Semper Vaporo I watch what I think are mainline trains come to the railyard in my area, uncouple some set of cars from the front of the train, leaving the remainder on the mainline. Pull the set of cars from the head end into an empty yard track, uncouple the engines to go out the other end, switch to another yard track and push a pre-assembled set of cars back to couple to the rest of the train on the mainline, and then continue on. A relatively simple operation, if all the cars to be left here are on the leading end of the train as it arrives, and the local yard crew has already assembled the cars destined to leave into a train.
Because of the number of cars handled at times, rear end set-outs and pick-ups are happening. The reason is so no one has to ride the end of long cuts of cars. There have been a few fatalities the last few years where a trainman riding the leading end of the cars was bounced off by slack action during a shove.
Of course a rear end set-out becomes a pain in the rear end when the yard can't (or won't) let you pull through a track, especially on a long train. I thought shoving the conductor on a 1.75 mile long train was bad. The 2.5 mile long train was worse. To make it worse, starting the shove is uphill, then as the rear end starts into the yard it starts going downhill.
Jeff
Convicted One BaltACD In accordance with the railroad's Schedule & Classification Manual those outbound blocks will either be picked up by a passing train (with the waybills for the pick up) or assembled into a originating train from the location (with waybills). Conductors of the trains originating or picking up from a yard would then recieve from Yard Personnel a Train Consist Report that will list all cars in the train in train standing orders as well as the packed of waybills that correspond to each car in the train. As the train performs line of road work, cars that are set off will have their waybills left at a specified location, waybills for cars picked up can also be retrieved from that specified location How common is it for a "passing train" to set off or pick up cars at intermediate points between it's origin and destination? From my own uninformed perspective I thought that operations were more centralized where entire trains were built based upon the destination of their consist, with entire trains moving between major yards, and that locals handled deliveries to all intermediate locations . To illustate what I am saying, if you had a block of cars in Chicago that are bound to Chattanooga, I would have imagined they along with the train they are built into, would travel all the way to Atlanta, and then get assembled into a Chattanooga bound train along with other cars headed to that destination.
BaltACD In accordance with the railroad's Schedule & Classification Manual those outbound blocks will either be picked up by a passing train (with the waybills for the pick up) or assembled into a originating train from the location (with waybills). Conductors of the trains originating or picking up from a yard would then recieve from Yard Personnel a Train Consist Report that will list all cars in the train in train standing orders as well as the packed of waybills that correspond to each car in the train. As the train performs line of road work, cars that are set off will have their waybills left at a specified location, waybills for cars picked up can also be retrieved from that specified location
The answer is "that depends". Mostly, it depends on volumes. The lynch pin of train operations is blocking. An optimized blocking plan will have the car classification scheme minimize handling, primarily - that is then number of times a car is switched between trains, and secondarily, minimizing route mileage.
Such a scheme could have a long haul train with just one block, and others that pick up and set out several places between the origin and destination terminal.
This said, it's common for merchandise trains to have some work en route. The traffic has to get to and from the serving yards somehow.
Conrail and NS have tried many operating plans for the Southern Tier over the years. One had an Oak Island to Buffalo train that worked every major serving yard on the route. It took a bunch of crews and a couple of days to get from A to B. Later, they tried just a network of local trains and played "rugby" with the traffic, passing it off from local to local. Less crews this way, but much slower movement of traffic.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
A key example around here is CSX Q620 and Q621 (this will change with CN buying the St Lawrence Sub).
While it may have changed, Q620 made pickups at Utica from the MA&N there. I'm sure they did business at Dewitt (Syracuse), and they made drops at Watertown.
Q621 rarely drops at Watertown, but does pick up there (most cars at Watertown are headed south). Again, I'm sure it does business at Dewitt, and may be the train that picks up from the SuzieQ at Utica and/or the MA&N, also at Utica.
I was talking to someone from CSX who told me that rear sets and pickups are the norm now, which can mean a lot of walking for the conductor.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
oltmanndThe answer is "that depends". Mostly, it depends on volumes. The lynch pin of train operations is blocking. An optimized blocking plan will have the car classification scheme minimize handling, primarily - that is then number of times a car is switched between trains, and secondarily, minimizing route mileage. Such a scheme could have a long haul train with just one block, and others that pick up and set out several places between the origin and destination terminal. This said, it's common for merchandise trains to have some work en route. The traffic has to get to and from the serving yards somehow. Conrail and NS have tried many operating plans for the Southern Tier over the years. One had an Oak Island to Buffalo train that worked every major serving yard on the route. It took a bunch of crews and a couple of days to get from A to B. Later, they tried just a network of local trains and played "rugby" with the traffic, passing it off from local to local. Less crews this way, but much slower movement of traffic.
That's an awesome answer...much appreciated.
Could you please elaborate on the term you used "serving yard"? I'm guessing that the term distinguishes the yard it describes from a "terminal"? Are their other unique named types ? (I'm not looking for "hump yard")
Convicted OneCould you please elaborate on the term you used "serving yard"?
I'll take a stab - a "serving yard" would be where locals are based. As discussed, blocks of cars would be dropped there so the local crew can deliver them to the appropriate industries, and where cars from said industries are gathered for pickup by the line trains.
Convicted OneThat's an awesome answer...much appreciated. Could you please elaborate on the term you used "serving yard"? I'm guessing that the term distinguishes the yard it describes from a "terminal"? Are their other unique named types ? (I'm not looking for "hump yard")
A Terminal can be a serving yard for industries located there. Even a Hump yard can be a serving yard for industries located in its immediate vicinity.
Cumberland was (is) a hump yard located in Cumberland, MD on the former B&O now CSX. The primary function of Cumberland as a hump yard was to take Westbound traffic that originated from points East of Cumberland and classify it for destinations West of Cumberland; it was also tasked with classifying Eastbound Traffic that originated West of Cumberland for the destinations that are East of Cumberland. In the day Cumberland had a number of industires, Kelly Springfield Tire, Pittsburgh Plate Glass and a number of smaller industries. Cumberland was the Serving yard for those industries and had yard jobs that would provide service to those industires. Different jobs performed the various classification and train make up function that Cumberland performed.
Cumberland is also a crew headquarters point, with crews working a number of different pool assignments in addition to the various yard assignments. Cumberland-Baltimore, Cumberland-New Castle, Cumberland-Connellsville, Cumberland-Grafton, Cumberland-Brunswick, Cumberland-Hagerstown and the Cumberland Helper assignments working on Sand Patch Grade.
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