Says the line is 220 miles long, 60 employees to be affected:
https://www.wwnytv.com/2019/08/29/csx-sells-massena-rail-line-workers-affected/
https://northcountrynow.com/business/csx-sell-massena-line-cn-60-jobs-be-lost-0264925
Surprised this wasn't posted already. I'm sure that tree68 will be interested.
- PDN.
Well duh, CSX will eliminate 60 jobs. They won't own or operate the sold of property. However CN may hire some, or close to all, of the CSX people affected. When a railroad sells trackage to another railroad, there are usually labor protections applied to the transaction.
One kind of protection is for income. If a CSX employee stays with them but has to take a job that pays less, the protection pays the difference. I believe 5 years is about the norm for this protection to last. There are also requirements for the employee, such as taking the highest paying job his/her seniority allows, to be able to get the protection.
Another form of protection is if CN needs to hire new employees, CSX employees get first chance at those new jobs.
Because of seniority districts, and the bumping process should those CSX employees decide to stay with CSX, those who could be adveresly affected may not even work on that segment of CSX.
Jeff
jeffhergert Well duh, CSX will eliminate 60 jobs. They won't own or operate the sold of property. However CN may hire some, or close to all, of the CSX people affected. When a railroad sells trackage to another railroad, there are usually labor protections applied to the transaction. One kind of protection is for income. If a CSX employee stays with them but has to take a job that pays less, the protection pays the difference. I believe 5 years is about the norm for this protection to last. There are also requirements for the employee, such as taking the highest paying job his/her seniority allows, to be able to get the protection. ... Jeff
...
So called 'New York Dock' protections.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
jeffhergertBecause of seniority districts, and the bumping process should those CSX employees decide to stay with CSX, those who could be adveresly affected may not even work on that segment of CSX.
I've always found such protections to be interesting. If you can offer some insight, how far ranging can such a bumping process extend? (or how are limitations set up, if that is an easier way to answer the question)
Is the pecking order system wide? Could a displaced senior employee in New York bump a junior employee that is states away (assuming the senior employee is willing to move), or are there prescribed zones limiting the reach of seniority?
Paul_D_North_Jr I'm sure that tree68 will be interested.
I've been following it since it hit the wires.
It will be interesting to see what changes occur, traffic-wise. It's already been said that IM traffic is going to increase. It remains to be seen what happens to the two manifest trains (Q620 & Q621).
The sale only includes the line as far south as Woodard. One might presume that CN will get trackage rights to Dewitt yard, where interchange will likely take place.
I know one or two people employed on the line. Might see one of them next weekend, and he might bring me up to date on those aspects.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Convicted One jeffhergert Because of seniority districts, and the bumping process should those CSX employees decide to stay with CSX, those who could be adveresly affected may not even work on that segment of CSX. I've always found such protections to be interesting. If you can offer some insight, how far ranging can such a bumping process extend? (or how are limitations set up, if that is an easier way to answer the question) Is the pecking order system wide? Could a displaced senior employee in New York bump a junior employee that is states away (assuming the senior employee is willing to move), or are there prescribed zones limiting the reach of seniority?
jeffhergert Because of seniority districts, and the bumping process should those CSX employees decide to stay with CSX, those who could be adveresly affected may not even work on that segment of CSX.
Seniority Districts tend to be narrowly geographic. Carriers, for decades have been trying to get the crafts to expand the geographical purchase of the seniority districts.
At one time on the Baltimore Division of the B&O - Baltimore to Philadelphia was one district. Baltimore to Brunswick was another district that included going to Patomac Yard. Then the Baltimore Division was combined with the Cumberland Division and the seniority districts were combined into a Maryland Division district that ran from Grafton, WV to Philadelphia via Cumberland, Brunswick and Baltimore as well as down to Potomac Yard. Subsequently the former Western Maryland RR rosters were dovetailed with the Maryland Division rosters. Then came CSX's acquisition of the RF&P and those employees were dovetailed into the now CSX Baltiomore Division roster - which now encompasses Grafton to Philadelphia and Philadelphia to Richmond & and all the permutations of origins and destinations. A employee being 'furloughed' in Philadelphia, if he has enough seniority can displace another employee in Grafton if the Philadelphia employee wants to continue to work.
Employees, beyond new hire status, know intimately the extents of their own seniority districts.
Assuming affected employees aren't ultimately negatively affected, as an interested observer that lives along this line, I see this as good news at the end of the day.
It's very much a bridge route with very limited local opportunities. And if Alcoa West dies like is a constant possibility, most of that little local traffic would dry up overnight. Just hard to imagine it having a future had it ended up somewhere like Genesee & Wyoming. But having it join CNR, which is where all the through traffic over the line is originating from or going to, seems like a good fit now that CSX wants out.
They're a growing business that's seeking new opportunities to expand their network. With this line, they're buying a route that recently was rebuilt and has signficiant intermodal opportunities that CSX post-Harrison in these still early days of PSR now doesn't have the patience to nurture as it seemingly struggles to stabilize the business.
CNR on the other hand has been through the PSR process, is performing very well today, and thus isn't under attack from Wall Street. They can afford to give this route the resources and time needed to unlock its potential.
Anyone know if they're also getting the new Valleyfield intermodal terminal?
I drive along the line several times a year, and will be looking foward to more traffic and something other than the "new big blue of the east".
Harrison
Homeschooler living In upstate NY a.k.a Northern NY.
Modeling the D&H in 1978.
Route of the famous "Montreal Limited"
My YouTube
Leo_Ames . . . They're [CN] a growing business that's seeking new opportunities to expand their network. With this line, they're buying a route that recently was rebuilt and has signficiant intermodal opportunities that CSX post-Harrison in these still early days of PSR now doesn't have the patience to nurture as it seemingly struggles to stabilize the business. CNR on the other hand has been through the PSR process, is performing very well today, and thus isn't under attack from Wall Street. They can afford to give this route the resources and time needed to unlock its potential. . . .
CNR on the other hand has been through the PSR process, is performing very well today, and thus isn't under attack from Wall Street. They can afford to give this route the resources and time needed to unlock its potential. . . .
I'm not aware of it giving CN significant new access. It's all about maintaining access on a route that Canadian National cross-border traffic traditionally has taken advantage of like paper and lumber going to American customers, while gaining control to help shape it into a more significant intermodal corridor in the future.
Pre-Harrison CSX saw all that truck traffic on the I-81 corridor and spent millions to go after it, but of course these things don't happen overnight and it was a victim of PSR implementation since medium and long-term growth isn't an area of focus.
Canadian National has gone through that PSR implementation process and thankfully survived it and became stronger like these other roads hope to see happen. They're growing, average speeds are up, terminal dwell time is down, customer complaints are down, and investor pressure is down.
They can make the investment in this line to give it an opportunity to hopefully take a significant share of that traffic off the interstates (If CSX of course does their part; All this does is get CNR to the outskirts of Syracuse NY rather than Montreal).
Leo_AmesI'm not aware of it giving CN significant new access. It's all about maintaining a route that Canadian National cross-border traffic traditionally has taken advantage of like paper and lumber going south, while gaining control to help shape it into a more significant intermodal corridor in the future. Pre-Harrison CSX saw all that truck traffic on the I-81 corridor and spent millions to go after it, but of course these things don't happen overnight and it was a victim of PSR implementation since medium and long-term growth isn't an area of focus. Canadian National has gone through that PSR implementation process and thankfully survived it and became stronger like these other roads hope to see happen. They're growing, average speeds are up, terminal dwell time is down, customer complaints are down, and investor pressure is down. They can make the investment in this line to give it an opportunity to hopefully take a significant share of that traffic off the interstates (If CSX of course does their part; All this does is get CNR to the outskirts of Syracuse NY rather than Montreal).
Before EHH - CSX constructed a Intermodal Terminal at Valleyfield, Quebec - after it was opened some Intermodal Schedules were implemented - I am led to believe that the traffic volume was less than outstanding. After several months the traffic was being moved on the regular merchandise trains.
Is the ramp still there and still functional?
BaltACD jeffhergert Well duh, CSX will eliminate 60 jobs. They won't own or operate the sold of property. However CN may hire some, or close to all, of the CSX people affected. When a railroad sells trackage to another railroad, there are usually labor protections applied to the transaction. One kind of protection is for income. If a CSX employee stays with them but has to take a job that pays less, the protection pays the difference. I believe 5 years is about the norm for this protection to last. There are also requirements for the employee, such as taking the highest paying job his/her seniority allows, to be able to get the protection. ... Jeff So called 'New York Dock' protections.
I believe the other protection, that requiring first chance of new jobs, is from and called "Oregon Short Line" protection.
BaltACD Convicted One jeffhergert Because of seniority districts, and the bumping process should those CSX employees decide to stay with CSX, those who could be adveresly affected may not even work on that segment of CSX. I've always found such protections to be interesting. If you can offer some insight, how far ranging can such a bumping process extend? (or how are limitations set up, if that is an easier way to answer the question) Is the pecking order system wide? Could a displaced senior employee in New York bump a junior employee that is states away (assuming the senior employee is willing to move), or are there prescribed zones limiting the reach of seniority? Seniority Districts tend to be narrowly geographic. Carriers, for decades have been trying to get the crafts to expand the geographical purchase of the seniority districts. At one time on the Baltimore Division of the B&O - Baltimore to Philadelphia was one district. Baltimore to Brunswick was another district that included going to Patomac Yard. Then the Baltimore Division was combined with the Cumberland Division and the seniority districts were combined into a Maryland Division district that ran from Grafton, WV to Philadelphia via Cumberland, Brunswick and Baltimore as well as down to Potomac Yard. Subsequently the former Western Maryland RR rosters were dovetailed with the Maryland Division rosters. Then came CSX's acquisition of the RF&P and those employees were dovetailed into the now CSX Baltiomore Division roster - which now encompasses Grafton to Philadelphia and Philadelphia to Richmond & and all the permutations of origins and destinations. A employee being 'furloughed' in Philadelphia, if he has enough seniority can displace another employee in Grafton if the Philadelphia employee wants to continue to work. Employees, beyond new hire status, know intimately the extents of their own seniority districts.
Depending on how it's done, employees may retain "prior rights" on the portion of the new district that was their own district. Tom hired out on district A, Harry hired out on district B. Both districts are combined. Both Tom and Harry can bid any job on the expanded district. If Tom is bumped, he could bump Harry on district A but might not be able to bump him on district B.
I'm on multiple seniority rosters, all with the same date. The date I hired out. We really only have one consolidated roster, but there are multiple rosters dating back to previously separate districts. On those, people in one area have their original hire date on the roster for the territory they originally hired out on. On other districts, their date (and ranking) is the date the new consolidated roster took effect.
To say it can get complicated really fast is an understatement.
I'm not aware of the status of Valleyfield. I believe I read it was to be closed, but past that, I'm not sure.
It's worth noting though that it of course takes more than just building a terminal, getting this line into shape for 40 mph freight trains, and publishing an intermodal schedule.
At the end of the day, it takes time and a competent sales department to attract customers to fill those intermodal trains and grow demand to add more trains. CSX lost that drive shortly after everything was prepared in Valleyfield and along the St. Lawrence Subdivision since that's when H Day happened.
Everything without an adequate operating ratio suddenly became something to kill, cut, or sell. Not the recipe this line needed when CSX management was looking out 10-15 years when they initiated the investment with the recognition their rewards wouldn't be immediate (They even did some work with an eye towards coming back in a few years to install signals and CTC with the upgrading).
Now, CSX is working with a narrow window of perhaps 24 months max with their planning, which doesn't gel with what was the gameplan with this line (And why it went up for sale almost immediately, just months after rehabilitation and an expensive terminal had been built).
I heard somewhere that CN would now have connection to NYS&W, but since the deal stops short of Syracuse, it seems like CSX would still be in the way.
MidlandMike I heard somewhere that CN would now have connection to NYS&W, but since the deal stops short of Syracuse, it seems like CSX would still be in the way.
The sale stops at Woodard, New York so that CSX can still acesss it's Oswego line. It's also safe to assume that it also inculdes trackage rights into CSX's East Syracause Yard, but not any connection to the Susie-Q.
Durring the Conrail split, CN wanted to acquire the Massena line and trackage rights around Syracuse in order to gain accesss to the Susie-Q. This was apart of a plan to gain access to the New York intermodal market, mainly to compete against CP's D&H. 1999 is not 2019 and several things have changed in the past 20 years. Mainly CSX and NS both acquiring 40% of the Susie-Q so that it can't really compete against CSX and NS in New York.
Even if the sale included an way to interchange with the NYS&W, it's most likley that CN would still send all of the freight traffic over CSX, if the recent announcement about joint intermodal services says anything.
Yes, they don't get a direct connection to the Susquehanna. Only buying south to Woodard NY, which is just north of the city of Syracuse. CSX is maintaining control south of there the last few miles, as is typical with such transactions. It also keeps under CSX ownership the connection to the Oswego branch to the port.
jeffhergert BaltACD Convicted One jeffhergert Because of seniority districts, and the bumping process should those CSX employees decide to stay with CSX, those who could be adveresly affected may not even work on that segment of CSX. I've always found such protections to be interesting. If you can offer some insight, how far ranging can such a bumping process extend? (or how are limitations set up, if that is an easier way to answer the question) Is the pecking order system wide? Could a displaced senior employee in New York bump a junior employee that is states away (assuming the senior employee is willing to move), or are there prescribed zones limiting the reach of seniority? Seniority Districts tend to be narrowly geographic. Carriers, for decades have been trying to get the crafts to expand the geographical purchase of the seniority districts. At one time on the Baltimore Division of the B&O - Baltimore to Philadelphia was one district. Baltimore to Brunswick was another district that included going to Patomac Yard. Then the Baltimore Division was combined with the Cumberland Division and the seniority districts were combined into a Maryland Division district that ran from Grafton, WV to Philadelphia via Cumberland, Brunswick and Baltimore as well as down to Potomac Yard. Subsequently the former Western Maryland RR rosters were dovetailed with the Maryland Division rosters. Then came CSX's acquisition of the RF&P and those employees were dovetailed into the now CSX Baltiomore Division roster - which now encompasses Grafton to Philadelphia and Philadelphia to Richmond & and all the permutations of origins and destinations. A employee being 'furloughed' in Philadelphia, if he has enough seniority can displace another employee in Grafton if the Philadelphia employee wants to continue to work. Employees, beyond new hire status, know intimately the extents of their own seniority districts. Depending on how it's done, employees may retain "prior rights" on the portion of the new district that was their own district. Tom hired out on district A, Harry hired out on district B. Both districts are combined. Both Tom and Harry can bid any job on the expanded district. If Tom is bumped, he could bump Harry on district A but might not be able to bump him on district B. I'm on multiple seniority rosters, all with the same date. The date I hired out. We really only have one consolidated roster, but there are multiple rosters dating back to previously separate districts. On those, people in one area have their original hire date on the roster for the territory they originally hired out on. On other districts, their date (and ranking) is the date the new consolidated roster took effect. To say it can get complicated really fast is an understatement. Jeff
The permutations of combining rosters boggle the mind - virtually no two combinations are the same - even within the growth of a single roster over time. If it can be thought of by man, it has been done somewhere, and done differently somewhere else.
jeffhergertDepending on how it's done, employees may retain "prior rights" on the portion of the new district that was their own district. Tom hired out on district A, Harry hired out on district B. Both districts are combined. Both Tom and Harry can bid any job on the expanded district. If Tom is bumped, he could bump Harry on district A but might not be able to bump him on district B.
Typically, where would this understanding be set forth? In the labor contract? As a company rule specific to the work location? Other?
Convicted One jeffhergert Depending on how it's done, employees may retain "prior rights" on the portion of the new district that was their own district. Tom hired out on district A, Harry hired out on district B. Both districts are combined. Both Tom and Harry can bid any job on the expanded district. If Tom is bumped, he could bump Harry on district A but might not be able to bump him on district B. Typically, where would this understanding be set forth? In the labor contract? As a company rule specific to the work location? Other?
jeffhergert Depending on how it's done, employees may retain "prior rights" on the portion of the new district that was their own district. Tom hired out on district A, Harry hired out on district B. Both districts are combined. Both Tom and Harry can bid any job on the expanded district. If Tom is bumped, he could bump Harry on district A but might not be able to bump him on district B.
Local contract negotiations between the company and the craft that take place just prior to the change(s) in the seniority district(s). The results of these negotiations end up being addendum's to the Craft's National Agreement with the Carrier.
When CSX originally centralized their Dispatching Center in Jacksonville in the lat 1980's - negotiations were conducted between the company and each of the existing dispatching offices that pertained to how to dovetail the seniority dates, prior rights to various jobs, they ability exercise seniority to other territories based upon original office and railroad - and on and on an on. The original implementing agreement also called for a pay incentive to attract dispatchers from existing offices (which would be eliminated) to Jacksonville.
After the origination of the centralized Jacksonville office, some field offices continued to exist for whatever extenuating reasons. The dispatcher that stayed with those offices lost their ability to have their original dispatcher's seniority dovetailed to the Jacksonville roster; they would get new seniority dates when those offices were finally moved to Jacksonville.
When territory is added or subtracted from a desk in a 'material' way that gives the incumbents on that desk the rights to 'bump' junior employees from other desks that are more to the former incumbents liking. Between bumping and becoming qualified on 'new' territories - it can take up to a year (or more) for a bump string to work itself to its end (bumped employees have the right to bump junior employees once they are released from their prior position).
By the same token, there was another implementing agreement that was negotiated for the 2008 decentralizing of the Train Dispatchers. That agreement allowed dispatchers to 'bid' to the job and office of their choice in seniority order. As would be expected, most of the 'old heads' bid in the positions of the Jacksonville Office. The Baltimore Office, for the most part, ended up with those with the least senioity (they didn't have enough seniority to bid in jobs anywhere else). Subsequent to the decentralization, those who had Jacksonville seniority could bid, in seniority order, to vacancies that opened at any of the decentralized offices. New hires after decentralization, created seniority ONLY in the office they were hired into.
I have no idea of what the conditions and/or negotiations were when the offices were RE-centralized back to Jacksonville in 2017, having retired in December 2016.
Thanks Balt,
As someone who has never worked in a "organized" environment, I always find such stories interesting.
Most of my career I worked for a company that paid very well, but had a tyrannical environment with rules that were arbitrary and capricious. The daily "chore" was usually some variant of "how much more of this am I willing to put up with just for the pay?" So it's interesting to read of instances where employee rights are a factor.
Convicted OneThanks Balt, As someone who has never worked in a "organized" environment, I always find such stories interesting. Most of my career I worked for a company that paid very well, but had a tyrannical environment with rules that were arbitrary and capricious. The daily "chore" was usually some variant of "how much more of this am I willing to put up with just for the pay?" So it's interesting to read of instances where employee rights are a factor.
And thus the labor union movement and today we celebrate Labor Day.
In my 51 year career I spent 20 years as 'non-contract' management and 31 years as a contract employee. The experiences led me to champion the phrase 'I work for money, not prestige.'
Anyone know if this is now official? Local news isn't saying anything.
The sale last I heard was supposed to be effective today, but only silence.
I've got a friend who is a customer on the line. He hasn't said anything (and I haven't asked), but since that business has been closed up until this week, I'd imagine that's no high on his list of concerns.
If you happen by a crossing, take a look at the blue sign and see what it says. In theory, they should reflect the operator of the line, presuming they've been changed out in a timely manner.
I'd be interested, too, as I suspect it will mean a change in the radio channels they'll be using.
Did CSX have a specific frequency (channel) for the line different than any other in the vicinity? Wouldn't it transfer with the line as well as the base stations?
tree68If you happen by a crossing, take a look at the blue sign and see what it says. In theory, they should reflect the operator of the line, presuming they've been changed out in a timely manner.
Larry, I'm not familiar with the "blue signs." Could you describe them more, or link to a photo of one?
Hundreds of times I've crossed tracks and not been able to determine what railroad it is. Sometimes I see black stenciled reporting marks or something on cable cabinets, and sometimes there are no trespassing signs with the road's name. But often there are no identifiers I can find. Please tell me about the blue signs.
Lithonia OperatorPlease tell me about the blue signs.
Every registered crossing is required to have signs indicating the crossing number/ID and a number to call to report problems. They used to take a number of forms, I believe the blue sign is now the standard.
Very interesting.
Since I don't live very near any lines here in Maine, most of my train-watching happens in the rural South when we're down for the winter. I'm willing to bet there is rampant non-compliance in the rural South!
Lithonia OperatorVery interesting. Since I don't live very near any lines here in Maine, most of my train-watching happens in the rural South when we're down for the winter. I'm willing to bet there is rampant non-compliance in the rural South!
If there is rampant non-compliance, there will be rampant FRA fines - rural South or any where elese in the USA.
That being said, it may take some time, when a property changes hands, for all the road crossing signs to be updated to the new ownership. I don't believe it is realistic to expect all crossing designator signs to be properly changed on the first days of new ownership. Secondly, in a number of cases, even though ownership has changed on paper, the operating personnel (T&E, MofW, Dispatching) may remain the same for a period of time until the new ownership is able to staff and supply their own forces for those functions.
Remember, when Amtrak was created, for a number of years thereafter it was actually railroad personnel still doing the work - for Amtrak under a operating contract.
I was in town today, but didn't hit any crossings. Maybe Sunday.
I would imagine dispatching will just go to whoever does US dispatching for CN. The logistics of sending all the "bases" to that point instead of Jax will be one issue to be dealt with, as will changing the radios over to the new frequencies. The line is still running on the old Conrail frequency of 160.800 MHz.
Never mind all the PTC stuff (and there is a lot of it) even though this is "dark" territory.
I'd just about bet on a "maintenance window," perhaps of several days, while those technical changes are made.
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