I can also remember letters in "Railway Post Office" in the issues following the challenge issued by DPM in the frontispiece article. More than a few readers were quite willing to bet on the GG1.
My memory of riding behind a GG1 was the first trip I had on the corridor back in the 60's. And the memory is of the push back into the seat when the engineer opened the throttle. I had not felt that when pulled by two K-4's after leaving Chicago heading toward Indianapolis and being delayed by an open Calumet River Bridge. After getting off the Colehour cutoff and onto the panhandle toward Logansport, we accelerated and got up to one hundred , (we were in the back vestibule and my dad was timing the mile posts with his Hamilton watch) But the GG-1s pulling the Broadway just pushed me back in my seat when we left North Philadelphia. The only acceleration that I remember being greater is jet airplanes on take of. So yes, I would bet on the GG-1.
Paul_D_North_Jr Overmod BaltACD In the early 20's the PRR K-4's would out accelerate the B&O's early Pacifics, when the B&O got their President P-7 Pacifics in 1927 they would leave the K-4's in the dust, then when the PRR electified with the GG-1's the competition was all in the PRR's favor. There was a picture in an issue of Trains in the late '60s that showed a brace of P-7s supposedly handily out-accelerating a GG1 that was putting up a remarkable cloud of dust. I wondered then, as I wonder now, if the relative position was an accident of the time the shutter was snapped, and the PRR train would be storming ahead just a few seconds later... but the caption said no, it wouldn't. (And it wouldn't be surprising to find that a 4-6-6-4 with 27x28" cylinders could accelerate pretty darn quickly...) PaulDNorthJr The picture that Overmod references was a frontispiece with commentary by David P. Morgan in the late 1960's, I think. He did write it in terms of a race, and used several lines of the lyrics from Stephen Foster's Camptown Races as part of it. But even he acknowledged that despite the B&O being in the lead at the moment, the PRR engineer would open the GG1's throttle and rapidly outrun the B&O train. The Magazine Index isn't working right now, so I can't provide a citation. Maybe later. - PDN. Somebody bet on the GG1 Pennsylvania and Baltimore & Ohio leaving Washington by Morgan, David P. Taub, Bill from Trains July 1966 p. 18 B&O electric prr race steam From Trains, July 1966, Vol. 26, No. 9, pgs. 18 - 19, by Editor David P. Morgan: Somebody bet on the GG1 HERE is railroading’s Camptown Races. We’re at trackside just east of Washington Union Station and opposite the Ivy City engine terminal. At 4 p.m. both Baltimore and Ohio No. 8, the Shenandoah, and Pennsylvania No. 154, the Embassy, departed Washington for the East; a minute or so later both trains have placed terminal trackwork behind their markers and are accelerating on timecards that demand an average mile-a-minute gait to reach Baltimore, the first stop, on time. Gwine to run all night! Gwine to run all day! Now here they come – B&O’s Pacific team Nos. 5122 and 5310, is out in front*, talking it up through almost clear stacks, getting a roll on a considerable consist. But on the outside iron, throwing back the roadbed dust (and catching up?), comes Pennsy’s redoubtable GG1 electric. Oh! doodah day! It could be anybody’s horse race. The dispassionate observer would surely place his wager on the energy in that 11,000-volt catenary, the 12 traction motors, and a 22:79 gear ratio. Not us, though. We’ll bet our money on the B&O nags – somebody bet on the GG1. Doodah! Doodah! - D.P.M. [*I estimate by the length of both B&O Pacifics plus about 3 boxcar-type express cars. – PDN] - PDN.
Overmod BaltACD In the early 20's the PRR K-4's would out accelerate the B&O's early Pacifics, when the B&O got their President P-7 Pacifics in 1927 they would leave the K-4's in the dust, then when the PRR electified with the GG-1's the competition was all in the PRR's favor. There was a picture in an issue of Trains in the late '60s that showed a brace of P-7s supposedly handily out-accelerating a GG1 that was putting up a remarkable cloud of dust. I wondered then, as I wonder now, if the relative position was an accident of the time the shutter was snapped, and the PRR train would be storming ahead just a few seconds later... but the caption said no, it wouldn't. (And it wouldn't be surprising to find that a 4-6-6-4 with 27x28" cylinders could accelerate pretty darn quickly...)
BaltACD In the early 20's the PRR K-4's would out accelerate the B&O's early Pacifics, when the B&O got their President P-7 Pacifics in 1927 they would leave the K-4's in the dust, then when the PRR electified with the GG-1's the competition was all in the PRR's favor.
There was a picture in an issue of Trains in the late '60s that showed a brace of P-7s supposedly handily out-accelerating a GG1 that was putting up a remarkable cloud of dust. I wondered then, as I wonder now, if the relative position was an accident of the time the shutter was snapped, and the PRR train would be storming ahead just a few seconds later... but the caption said no, it wouldn't.
(And it wouldn't be surprising to find that a 4-6-6-4 with 27x28" cylinders could accelerate pretty darn quickly...)
PaulDNorthJr The picture that Overmod references was a frontispiece with commentary by David P. Morgan in the late 1960's, I think. He did write it in terms of a race, and used several lines of the lyrics from Stephen Foster's Camptown Races as part of it. But even he acknowledged that despite the B&O being in the lead at the moment, the PRR engineer would open the GG1's throttle and rapidly outrun the B&O train. The Magazine Index isn't working right now, so I can't provide a citation. Maybe later. - PDN. Somebody bet on the GG1 Pennsylvania and Baltimore & Ohio leaving Washington by Morgan, David P. Taub, Bill from Trains July 1966 p. 18 B&O electric prr race steam From Trains, July 1966, Vol. 26, No. 9, pgs. 18 - 19, by Editor David P. Morgan:
The Magazine Index isn't working right now, so I can't provide a citation. Maybe later.
- PDN.
From Trains, July 1966, Vol. 26, No. 9, pgs. 18 - 19, by Editor David P. Morgan:
My Dad's stories didn't encompass double headed Pacifics - just the standard 7 or 8 car train hauled by one of the President Pacifics vs. the standard PRR train with a GG-1.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
PaulDNorthJrThe picture that Overmod references was a frontispiece with commentary by David P. Morgan in the late 1960's, I think. He did write it in terms of a race, and used several lines of the lyrics from Stephen Foster's Camptown Races as part of it. But even he acknowledged that despite the B&O being in the lead at the moment, the PRR engineer would open the GG1's throttle and rapidly outrun the B&O train. The Magazine Index isn't working right now, so I can't provide a citation. Maybe later. - PDN. Somebody bet on the GG1 Pennsylvania and Baltimore & Ohio leaving Washington by Morgan, David P. Taub, Bill from Trains July 1966 p. 18 B&O electric prr race steam
I haven't done it in years, but before I was married I was able to pick up a lot of past issues of TRAINS (and other stuff) at various swap meets. I wouldn't know how well that would work today.
Lithonia Operator Paul_D_North_Jr Somewhere here a couple months ago - around the time of the 150th anniversary of completion of the Transcontinental Railroad, the Big Boy and 844 trains, and shortly afterwards - I seem to recall there was a thread about pacing, but I can't find it now. Anyway, I thought of and may have mentioned a frontispiece article in Trains. I finally found* a reference to it - it was about E7's or E8's as I recall - and this entry explains as well as I could: Three lovely ladies Pacing the Panama on a South Shore train by Golightly, J from Trains June 1968 p. 23 e8 ic Limited panama *I've always thought Golightly was a pseudonym (pen name), but now I'm not so sure. I saw it earlier today in another thread - the steam-powered rocket one, I think - in one of the historic reprints of a magazine article, likely from Mike/ wanswheel. - PDN. The link did not yield the story, only an index. Is that as good as it gets? Naturally, they want you to buy the back issue.
Paul_D_North_Jr Somewhere here a couple months ago - around the time of the 150th anniversary of completion of the Transcontinental Railroad, the Big Boy and 844 trains, and shortly afterwards - I seem to recall there was a thread about pacing, but I can't find it now. Anyway, I thought of and may have mentioned a frontispiece article in Trains. I finally found* a reference to it - it was about E7's or E8's as I recall - and this entry explains as well as I could: Three lovely ladies Pacing the Panama on a South Shore train by Golightly, J from Trains June 1968 p. 23 e8 ic Limited panama *I've always thought Golightly was a pseudonym (pen name), but now I'm not so sure. I saw it earlier today in another thread - the steam-powered rocket one, I think - in one of the historic reprints of a magazine article, likely from Mike/ wanswheel. - PDN. The link did not yield the story, only an index. Is that as good as it gets? Naturally, they want you to buy the back issue.
Somewhere here a couple months ago - around the time of the 150th anniversary of completion of the Transcontinental Railroad, the Big Boy and 844 trains, and shortly afterwards - I seem to recall there was a thread about pacing, but I can't find it now.
Anyway, I thought of and may have mentioned a frontispiece article in Trains. I finally found* a reference to it - it was about E7's or E8's as I recall - and this entry explains as well as I could:
*I've always thought Golightly was a pseudonym (pen name), but now I'm not so sure. I saw it earlier today in another thread - the steam-powered rocket one, I think - in one of the historic reprints of a magazine article, likely from Mike/ wanswheel.
The link did not yield the story, only an index. Is that as good as it gets? Naturally, they want you to buy the back issue.
Beautiful. Thanks for the post and the memories.
On a significantly grosser note, has anyone of you ever used the porcelain throne that is behind the second prime mover of an E-8 when it is running at 80 mph wide open? Not something you choose without need.
Paul_D_North_JrSomewhere here a couple months ago - around the time of the 150th anniversary of completion of the Transcontinental Railroad, the Big Boy and 844 trains, and shortly afterwards - I seem to recall there was a thread about pacing, but I can't find it now. Anyway, I thought of and may have mentioned a frontispiece article in Trains. I finally found* a reference to it - it was about E7's or E8's as I recall - and this entry explains it as well as I could: Three lovely ladies Pacing the Panama on a South Shore train by Golightly, J from Trains June 1968 p. 23 e8 ic Limited panama *I've always thought Golightly was a pseudonym (pen name), but now I'm not so sure. I saw it earlier today in another thread - the steam-powered rocket one, I think - in one of the historic reprints of a magazine article, likely from Mike/ wanswheel. - PDN.
Anyway, I thought of and may have mentioned a frontispiece article in Trains. I finally found* a reference to it - it was about E7's or E8's as I recall - and this entry explains it as well as I could:
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Good writing like this is hard to find anymore. Much better than discussing the 3rd paint scheme on a Dash 8 whatever.
Paul_D_North_JrThe picture that Overmod references was a frontispiece with commentary by David P. Morgan in the late 1960's, I think. He did write it in terms of a race, and used several lines of the lyrics from Stephen Foster's Camptown Races as part of it. But even he acknowledged that despite the B&O being in the lead at the moment, the PRR engineer would open the GG1's throttle and rapidly outrun the B&O train. The Magazine Index isn't working right now, so I can't provide a citation. Maybe later. - PDN.
Above is the Timetable schematic for AF.
The RF&P is using, I think, a form of the PRR track numbering scheme - with the railroad being North-South - from the East Side the tracks are numbered 1 - 2 -3 - 4. On the PRR the 'middle tracks' #2 & #3 were the express tracks. There are a few locations where there are tracks #1 and #4. Some of these CSX have now designated as sidings instead of Main tracks.
During the years that the BD Desk was in Baltimore. #1 track was extended from AF South to Franconia 6.3 miles. #1 track has been extended North from Crossroads to Hamilton 2.5 miles and now ends at Control Point Fredericksburg making it 5.7 miles in length. Crossroads is the Control Point that leads to VRE's maintenance faciltiy for Fredericksburg.
Greendale milepost CFP 4.8 is the Control Point that separates the Florence Division and it's Richmond Terminal from the Baltimore Division. It is controlled by the Florence Division dispatcher. #4 track has been extended from Richmond's Staples Mill station to Greendale to facilitate Amtrak operations at Staples Mill.
A little more on the former RF&P. Unless there has been a major rebuilding effort in the past few years, track #1 exists only in several locations (Balt, do you have any knowledge as to why the two tracks that run the full distance are numbers 2 and 3?
As to Fredericksburg, the track is elevated at the station, with an elevator on only one side (by track 2), but with ramps on both sides. The two times that I rode from there to Washington, my cousin and I waited by track 2 for the train--and both times the train came in on track 3. The first time, there was no announcement; the second time there was an annoucement a minute or so before the train arrived; in both instances there was quite a movement--down to the street level, under the track, and up the ramp. If my cousin had not been with me, I would have missed the train, for she raced down and up, and told the conductor that I was coming (pushing my rollator). This stook plsce so quickly I did not get to hug my cousin goodby the second time.
As to Alexandria, last year, I came in from Meridian, Mississippi, and detrained next to the station--and when I boarded to continue to Washington, I boarded an Amtrak train on the same track. I may misremember, but it seems to me that the track next to the station is called "track 2" (in Fredericksburg, the tracks are called in accord with RF&P practice).
For the information of those who are not aware of the RF&P practice, the zero milepost is in Richmond.
Johnny
Electroliner 1935 BaltACD Dispatching the BD Desk (RF&P) on CSX has elements of high volume commuter traffic interspersed with Amtrak traffic as well as CSX freight traffic - especially between Union Station (CP Virginia) and Control Point 'AF', as between those points you have both the Fredericksburg & Manassas VRE commuter schedules as well as all Amtraks that operate on the I-95 corridor as well as those that operate on the NS to Manassas and beyond. CSX freight traffic in both directions stir the situation. While it is only 8 miles between CP Virginia and CP AF, the territory is triple track from Virginia to L'enfant where it becomes 2 tracks for 1.4 miles over The Long Bridge over the Potomac where it becomes 3 tracks again at CP RO and remains 3 tracks to CP AF where the configuration has 4 Main tracks as well as the 'South Siding' and the 'North Pass Track' - NS accesses CSX from both the East and West sides of the CSX North-South Mains. At times a very lively piece of railroad. Are all tracks signalled for both directions. Is there any track assignments for the Alexandria VA station or can you use any track there?
BaltACD Dispatching the BD Desk (RF&P) on CSX has elements of high volume commuter traffic interspersed with Amtrak traffic as well as CSX freight traffic - especially between Union Station (CP Virginia) and Control Point 'AF', as between those points you have both the Fredericksburg & Manassas VRE commuter schedules as well as all Amtraks that operate on the I-95 corridor as well as those that operate on the NS to Manassas and beyond. CSX freight traffic in both directions stir the situation. While it is only 8 miles between CP Virginia and CP AF, the territory is triple track from Virginia to L'enfant where it becomes 2 tracks for 1.4 miles over The Long Bridge over the Potomac where it becomes 3 tracks again at CP RO and remains 3 tracks to CP AF where the configuration has 4 Main tracks as well as the 'South Siding' and the 'North Pass Track' - NS accesses CSX from both the East and West sides of the CSX North-South Mains. At times a very lively piece of railroad.
Are all tracks signalled for both directions. Is there any track assignments for the Alexandria VA station or can you use any track there?
Passenger trains cannot use Track #1 in making their station stops at Alexandria, only tracks #2 & #3, there is a fence between #2 track and #1 track. South of AF toward Fredericksburg VRE's must operate on #2 track in both directions accout station configurations. Note-Some VRE stations can handle trains on both #2 & #3 Main tracks, however, there is at least one station between each Control Point that requires operation on #2 track, so from a Dispatchers perspective all VRE's between Fredericksburg and Alexandria are operated on #2 track.
Further NOTE - on the RF&P Numbers 2 and 3 are the Main tracks - as they were when the territory had current of traffic signalling, when #2 would have been the Northbound track and #3 the Southbound track.
BaltACDDispatching the BD Desk (RF&P) on CSX has elements of high volume commuter traffic interspersed with Amtrak traffic as well as CSX freight traffic - especially between Union Station (CP Virginia) and Control Point 'AF', as between those points you have both the Fredericksburg & Manassas VRE commuter schedules as well as all Amtraks that operate on the I-95 corridor as well as those that operate on the NS to Manassas and beyond. CSX freight traffic in both directions stir the situation. While it is only 8 miles between CP Virginia and CP AF, the territory is triple track from Virginia to L'enfant where it becomes 2 tracks for 1.4 miles over The Long Bridge over the Potomac where it becomes 3 tracks again at CP RO and remains 3 tracks to CP AF where the configuration has 4 Main tracks as well as the 'South Siding' and the 'North Pass Track' - NS accesses CSX from both the East and West sides of the CSX North-South Mains. At times a very lively piece of railroad.
The picture that Overmod references was a frontispiece with commentary by David P. Morgan in the late 1960's, I think. He did write it in terms of a race, and used several lines of the lyrics from Stephen Foster's Camptown Races as part of it. But even he acknowledged that despite the B&O being in the lead at the moment, the PRR engineer would open the GG1's throttle and rapidly outrun the B&O train.
I only know the stories my father related to me. As we all know today - a single picture doesn't answer all possible questions or support all positions.
BaltACDIn the early 20's the PRR K-4's would out accelerate the B&O's early Pacifics, when the B&O got their President P-7 Pacifics in 1927 they would leave the K-4's in the dust, then when the PRR electified with the GG-1's the competition was all in the PRR's favor.
Electroliner 1935And this is for Balt. That three track BN Chicago racetrack must be a fun job to dispatch. The Metra rush hour commuter volume is I suspect only matched by the PRR & Long Island Penn Station density. It has in the evening outbound locals on the north track being overtaken by outbound express trains on the center track and the inbounds on the south track. Throw in a late Amtrak CZ or SW Chief and the dispatcher has his hands full. I've watched the CZ come East on the center track, pass an inbound scoot at Downers Grove, and move over to the South track in front of said scoot, while an outbound scoot does its business on the north track. As soon as the CZ got off the center track, about two minutes later an outbound express to Naperville roars through on the center track, followed three minutes later by an express to Downers Grove coming off the center track to the north track. What a show.
As a kid, riding the B&O, was in the 'races' between B&O & PRR from Washington Union Station to just beyond F Tower where the PRR rails turned to the East. Info from my father - In the early 20's the PRR K-4's would out accelerate the B&O's early Pacifics, when the B&O got their President P-7 Pacifics in 1927 they would leave the K-4's in the dust, then when the PRR electified with the GG-1's the competition was all in the PRR's favor.
Dispatching the BD Desk (RF&P) on CSX has elements of high volume commuter traffic interspersed with Amtrak traffic as well as CSX freight traffic - especially between Union Station (CP Virginia) and Control Point 'AF', as between those points you have both the Fredericksburg & Manassas VRE commuter schedules as well as all Amtraks that operate on the I-95 corridor as well as those that operate on the NS to Manassas and beyond. CSX freight traffic in both directions stir the situation. While it is only 8 miles between CP Virginia and CP AF, the territory is triple track from Virginia to L'enfant where it becomes 2 tracks for 1.4 miles over The Long Bridge over the Potomac where it becomes 3 tracks again at CP RO and remains 3 tracks to CP AF where the configuration has 4 Main tracks as well as the 'South Siding' and the 'North Pass Track' - NS accesses CSX from both the East and West sides of the CSX North-South Mains. At times a very lively piece of railroad.
tree68Imagine the "races" out of Chicago, between NYC and PRR. I don't have any idea how far the two ran side-by-side, but I'd imagine it was fun for the passengers, too.
I understand that both RRs adjusted their schedules to get the two trains to meet where the tracks got close, just so they could race to where they diverged.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
This takes me back to 1961 when I moved to an apt in Berwyn IL next to the BN three track "racetrack". I watched in happy amazement as a Scoot (commuter) train came outbound on the North track, the Denver Zepher passed the Scoot on the middle track and an outbound freight crawled past on the south track. Most train activity I had seen since Cincinnati Union station. And for pacing, as Carl notes, frequently I have been on a scoot and we pass a freight just coming out of the Cicero yard and then slow for a station stop and the freight passes us only for us to overtake it after the stop. When the freight gets up to 45mph, he usually leaves us behind.
And this is for Balt. That three track BN Chicago racetrack must be a fun job to dispatch. The Metra rush hour commuter volume is I suspect only matched by the PRR & Long Island Penn Station density. It has in the evening outbound locals on the north track being overtaken by outbound express trains on the center track and the inbounds on the south track. Throw in a late Amtrak CZ or SW Chief and the dispatcher has his hands full. I've watched the CZ come East on the center track, pass an inbound scoot at Downers Grove, and move over to the South track in front of said scoot, while an outbound scoot does its business on the north track. As soon as the CZ got off the center track, about two minutes later an outbound express to Naperville roars through on the center track, followed three minutes later by an express to Downers Grove coming off the center track to the north track. What a show.
It can get quite interesting when the pacing is between two 767's at 35,000 feet westbound over the Pacific.
tree68 Imagine the "races" out of Chicago, between NYC and PRR.
Imagine the "races" out of Chicago, between NYC and PRR.
Born too late to really have experienced the NYC-PRR race out of Chicago, but did have first hand experience with two BART trains leaving McArthur station at the same time (Back when Concord service was McArthur to Concord).
Every once in a while, UP will enertain Metra's passengers on the West Line with a freight that may fall behind or outstrip the scoot. It wouldn't be a contest, except for the station stops.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Imagine the "races" out of Chicago, between NYC and PRR. I don't have any idea how far the two ran side-by-side, but I'd imagine it was fun for the passengers, too.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Paul_D_North_Jr Somewhere here a couple months ago - around the time of the 150th anniversary of completion of the Transcontinental Railroad, the Big Boy and 844 trains, and shortly afterwards - I seem to recall there was a thread about pacing, but I can't find it now. Anyway, I thought of and may have mentioned a frontispiece article in Trains. I finally found* a reference to it - it was about E7's or E8's as I recall - and this entry explains as well as I could: Three lovely ladies Pacing the Panama on a South Shore train by Golightly, J from Trains June 1968 p. 23 e8 ic Limited panama *I've always thought Golightly was a pseudonym (pen name), but now I'm not so sure. I saw it earlier today in another thread - the steam-powered rocket one, I think - in one of the historic reprints of a magazine article, likely from Mike/ wanswheel. - PDN.
I rode the IC's Pannyma (as the IC people in South Mississippi called it) and the Seminole out of Chicago once each, and also did not notice any South Shore train alongside. Nor, when I rode the South Shore to South Bend and back did I have the pleasure of running alongside an IC train. Oh, well, not all of us can have that interesting experience of pacing without having to worry about other traffic along our way.
CSSHEGEWISCH Deggesty Paul, I remeber that item about riding a South Shore train alongside the Panama--and wishing I could been there. Not quite the same as the "Panama Ltd", but I've paced a number of freights while riding the South Shore, almost always in the southbound direction. I do remember pacing the "Shawnee" (remnant of the "Seminole") on a Sunday evening and that it had about a dozen deadheading Harriman coaches in the consist.
Deggesty Paul, I remeber that item about riding a South Shore train alongside the Panama--and wishing I could been there.
Paul, I remeber that item about riding a South Shore train alongside the Panama--and wishing I could been there.
Got to ride the Panama as a kid, don't recall pacing any CSSB trains.
One of my favorite short articles, remember the vivid imagery of slowly passing the train. Also comments in subsequent issues about the acceleration rate of M.U.'s versus locomotive hauled trains.
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