Approximately 30 years ago, PA established a Rail Commision to look into HSR from Pilly to Pittsburgh. [I worked under its Chairman later in my university position.] It eventually was established that it wouldn't work due to (1) the on-going loss of population in Pittsburgh and (2) every state politican along the line wanted a stop in his/her district so HSR would have been a HS local! [Sound familiar CA?]
Anyway, he did tell me that if HSR would ever occur in the east other than NYC-DC which he felt was a "given", he believed the best would probably be a HSR from NYC-Philly-Pitt-Columbus-Indianapolis-Chicago with possibly a HSR connection to St. Louis from Indy. His thinking was that the majority of the HSR passengers would probably not be traveling the entire distance since the HSR couldn't compete with the jet airplane. He visualized something like 8-9 hour service from NYC to Chicago but shorter distances would be favored over plane travel (examples: approx. 1 hour or so Pitt-Col. and Col.-Indy). The in-between stops would have been Newark, Philly, Harrisburg, Pitt, Columbus, and Indy. Possibly it would work if some of the HSR trains would take longer with other stops: Lancaster, Altoona, Dayton, Richmond, and around Lafayette were possibilities he mentioned.
The interesting thing is that though the commission was made up of rail enthusists and was under pressure from outside interests who wanted it, they did reject the idea as too expensive and impractical. He told me he felt the idea was "20 years too late or maybe 20 years too early".
Yes, indeed, it used toi be.... M/ mother, who went to a girls' school in Northfield, Massachusetts, in the teens, once told me that back then it was possible to ride all over New England for a nickel if you knew where to transfer. (Of course, she did not mean up into northern Maine.)
Johnny
Thinking of this thread topic in the context of "the way it used to be"....I noticed a parallel with the interurbans. I recall as a child passing by derelict infrastructure that once was core to that industry's operation. Of course as someone who had never seen the interurbans operate...a lot of it did not make complete sense. I had to spend a few years learning what an interurban was, before "what it no longer was" started to make complete sense.
I think the same can be true in regard to the current freight railroads with their shift away from a customer intensive (team tracks, freighthouses, passenger service, etc) business model, to their current preference for long haul to the point they have disdain for anything strictly local.
The east end of four tracks out of Chicago was before Clarke Junction (crossing of the B&OCT), I believe, at the west end of Gary.This is the sad part of the tale: through Gary, the number of tracks on this line is now down to zero. There's still a crossing in the pavement at Clark Road, but no tracks on either side of it. This would probably be the last glimpse that people on the Broadway and 20th Century Limited would have had of each other in the race out of Englewood (at this grade crossing--intervening growth would preclude much of it).
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
timzEast end of four tracks was ... Hobart? Tolleston?
You're most likely correct, but it "puffed back up" to 4 tracks again in other locations to the east.
The area I was speaking of would be thru Fort Wayne between 'Junction' and 'Mike'. 20 years ago I walked the whole thing, east past Mike all the way to what was then the Triple crown yard.....And the thing that struck me most notable was all the line side industrial buildings that had "dock hi" doors all along the side of the facing buildings....that were a good 50-60 feet away from the single remaining main. All those sidings just gone. Of course many of the buildings were long empty as well. But at one time I'm sure it was quite a spectacle.
It's too bad that when I was younger I didn't realize that I was living through the end of an era.....or I would have paid better attention.
The NS is still running several trains thru Bucyrus on this line. They updated the signals for PTC at Colsan. Mostly oil trains west of Bucyrus. But they do run some mixed freight. They use the Y in Bucyrus to go east off the NS mainline. They also use it for trains coming from the east on the NS mainline. I live close to the NS main so I keep an eye on it daily
Electroliner 1935I believe the B&O had a bascule bridge north of and adjcent to the four PRR/NYC lift bridges. Also the former PRR main line east of Inianapolis IN was double track cab signaled all the way to Pittsburgh. Except for the passenger route through Dayton from East of Richmond IN to Xenia OH which was single track and freight mostly went via Urbana OH. This also had heavy (156#) rail. Almost all gone except for Ohio Cemtal East of Columbus.
Also the former PRR main line east of Inianapolis IN was double track cab signaled all the way to Pittsburgh. Except for the passenger route through Dayton from East of Richmond IN to Xenia OH which was single track and freight mostly went via Urbana OH. This also had heavy (156#) rail. Almost all gone except for Ohio Cemtal East of Columbus.
From my experiences of riding the B&O into and out of Chicago and seeing the drawbridges in the area, as well as working in Cleveland and all the various bridges over the Cuyahoga River - when I went South and saw what were being used as drawbridge along the ACL & SCL routes - they looked like 'Tinkertoys'.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
The Deutsche Bahn uses a mixture of existing stretches, rebuilt stretches, new high speed track next to existing track and totally new stretches, such as from Frankfurt Airport to Koeln. Seems to work well enough for their ICEs.
I believe the B&O had a bascule bridge north of and adjcent to the four PRR/NYC lift bridges.
They may have continued to near Englewood. There were four parallel double track vertical lift bridges over the Calumet River at one time. One has since been removed and two are out of service.
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Convicted Onethere were 4 mains (two freight, two passenger) plus sidings, and now seeing only one rickety main
I've always liked playing "connect the dots" with historic routes, but the Europeans, Japanese, and Chinese don't do HSR this way. It's all new, due to curves and grade-crossings.
But, if you want to adjust your fantasy machine a bit, you can play "connect the dots" with historic routes and simply assume a maximum speed of around 110 (this would be roughly what European regional services run at on their historic routes). Then, mix in new HSR routes into your fantasy and you've got a nice modern passenger rail system.
Of course, you can always tweak the fantasy with the assumption of increased gravity which renders air travel more expensive (impossible!) plus something which renders automobiles unusable and THEN you can start running the Broadway and 20th Century on the 110 mph historic routes (complete with new Budd built stainless steel equipment, and even the Riley - assuming that route still exists). Yeah, the ol' fantasy machine can be used for lots of purposes...)
Deggesty The PRR had a line from Pittsburgh to St. Louia that went through Columbus and Indianapolis. In October of 1971, I rode over it from Pittsburgh to Indianapolis and from Terre Haute to St. Louis--Conrail had already switched the traffic from Indianapolis to Terre Haute to the former NYC; the PRR line here no longer exists west of Davis (just west of Indianapolis).
The PRR had a line from Pittsburgh to St. Louia that went through Columbus and Indianapolis.
In October of 1971, I rode over it from Pittsburgh to Indianapolis and from Terre Haute to St. Louis--Conrail had already switched the traffic from Indianapolis to Terre Haute to the former NYC; the PRR line here no longer exists west of Davis (just west of Indianapolis).
I wonder just how much traffic the CN has between Jackson and New Orleans now. When I lived beside the main, 55 miles south of Jackson, in the early sixties, the line was double track with ABS. Now, it is single track, with CTC--and only one, instead of four, passenger trains a day each way. There were three through daily freights scheduled each day, running about 180 cars each.
Convicted One Los Angeles Rams Guy I thought it was an utter travesty how CR was able to get away with downgrading the mainline west of Crestline that resulted in the elimination of the Broadway Limited Walking through the areas where previously there were 4 mains (two freight, two passenger) plus sidings, and now seeing only one rickety main remaining, is a solemn experience.
Los Angeles Rams Guy I thought it was an utter travesty how CR was able to get away with downgrading the mainline west of Crestline that resulted in the elimination of the Broadway Limited
Walking through the areas where previously there were 4 mains (two freight, two passenger) plus sidings, and now seeing only one rickety main remaining, is a solemn experience.
Which only goes to prove just how much traffic is required to make any individual rail line profitable as single track, let alone 4 tracks.
As someone who's been very interested in the former PRR Chicago - New York mainline (particularly the segment from Crestline, OH westward), I thought it was an utter travesty how CR was able to get away with downgrading the mainline west of Crestline that resulted in the elimination of the Broadway Limited. Call me nostalgic but for me, the only way from Chicago to New York is the PRR.
CSSHEGEWISCH Now that the former Big Four route has been abandoned in part, the former Monon route is about all that's left between Indianapolis and Chicago and that's not even close to being the basis of a high-speed route.
Now that the former Big Four route has been abandoned in part, the former Monon route is about all that's left between Indianapolis and Chicago and that's not even close to being the basis of a high-speed route.
Looks like its yes
take a look at this: https://midwesthsr.docsend.com/view/xd7iymx
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
charlie hebdo oltmannd charlie hebdo Since it's virtually unused, this could be bought by the government and become part of a passenger-only higher speed or full high speed line from Chicago east. It could. Or the old Erie ROW, too. But the problem is the route misses all the bigger population centers. NS was running "directional" petroleum trains on the route a few years ago. I don't know if that practice has totally stopped or not. Perhaps spurs could connect to cities it misses. Didn't the old PRR have a line into Columbus? I seem to recall that the French HSR often missed major cities. In Germany most routes use older, slower repackage into cities, which increases time. But in the case of Kassel, the fast line station (Kassel-Wilhelmshoehe) was located well outside the city.
oltmannd charlie hebdo Since it's virtually unused, this could be bought by the government and become part of a passenger-only higher speed or full high speed line from Chicago east. It could. Or the old Erie ROW, too. But the problem is the route misses all the bigger population centers. NS was running "directional" petroleum trains on the route a few years ago. I don't know if that practice has totally stopped or not.
charlie hebdo Since it's virtually unused, this could be bought by the government and become part of a passenger-only higher speed or full high speed line from Chicago east.
Since it's virtually unused, this could be bought by the government and become part of a passenger-only higher speed or full high speed line from Chicago east.
It could. Or the old Erie ROW, too. But the problem is the route misses all the bigger population centers.
NS was running "directional" petroleum trains on the route a few years ago. I don't know if that practice has totally stopped or not.
Perhaps spurs could connect to cities it misses. Didn't the old PRR have a line into Columbus?
I seem to recall that the French HSR often missed major cities. In Germany most routes use older, slower repackage into cities, which increases time. But in the case of Kassel, the fast line station (Kassel-Wilhelmshoehe) was located well outside the city.
If you were looking to do a good "connect the dots" with available ROW, you could use the old PRR panhandle from Pittsburgh through Columbus to Indy. From Indy to Chicago...not sure what you could grab. I think there is a group thinking about this stuff and pushing out plans. It might be worth hunting for. Maybe a few years back...
charlie hebdomore viable than South Bend and Toledo.
I suspect that Toledo gets extra weight due to it's proximity to Detroit, and (big "and" there) Cleveland/Buffalo could be a good connection point to a complimentary line to the big cities on the east coast.
I have a pretty good lead that one of those mammoth tunnel boring machines is going to be available for sale used in a couple years. A pet fantasy of mine would be to buy that, and tunnel through Pennsylvania to link Pittburgh to Philly with a low slope tangent, and then lease the tunnel to a HSR operator....Making Chicago to Pittburgh more attractive.
Unfortunately in addition to all the obvious reasons why I'll never do that, I just wouldn't live long enough to see it ever bear fruit.
Convicted One charlie hebdo Since it's virtually unused, this could be bought by the government and become part of a passenger-only higher speed or full high speed line from Chicago east. The line has been used in sort of a nutshell game by people making dubious claims trying to build grass roots support for a HSR line between Chicago and various points east. Generally they present their idea, saying "we'd like to do this" (which is the former PRR line we are talking about)...then they continue by saying "of course there are options" and then they show another map which depicts the line just mentioned PLUS an alternate route that just happens to connect Cleveland,Toledo, South Bend, and Chicago..... The presentation wreaks just a little too much of an effort to stimulate taxpayer support in as broad an area as possible while making no tangible commitment that the line will serve any one area. When they come around and say they are willing to commit $10 billion of their own money, and will build the line where ever they can get a taxpayer commitment to match them...then I'll start paying attention. The guys just seem a little too much like hucksters trying to attach a siphon hose to a "public private partnership" where they draw all the pretty pictures and control the farebox, while the taxpayer gets to do all the heavy lifting. You need a desirable endpoint on each end of thre line to make it really work, and while I am sure Chicago qualifies, I have serious doubts that either Columbus or Pittsburgh is going to excite many private deep pockets. So my suspicion would be that the South Bend-Toledo-Cleveland option is the one they really want to build
The line has been used in sort of a nutshell game by people making dubious claims trying to build grass roots support for a HSR line between Chicago and various points east.
Generally they present their idea, saying "we'd like to do this" (which is the former PRR line we are talking about)...then they continue by saying "of course there are options" and then they show another map which depicts the line just mentioned PLUS an alternate route that just happens to connect Cleveland,Toledo, South Bend, and Chicago.....
The presentation wreaks just a little too much of an effort to stimulate taxpayer support in as broad an area as possible while making no tangible commitment that the line will serve any one area.
When they come around and say they are willing to commit $10 billion of their own money, and will build the line where ever they can get a taxpayer commitment to match them...then I'll start paying attention.
The guys just seem a little too much like hucksters trying to attach a siphon hose to a "public private partnership" where they draw all the pretty pictures and control the farebox, while the taxpayer gets to do all the heavy lifting.
You need a desirable endpoint on each end of thre line to make it really work, and while I am sure Chicago qualifies, I have serious doubts that either Columbus or Pittsburgh is going to excite many private deep pockets.
So my suspicion would be that the South Bend-Toledo-Cleveland option is the one they really want to build
Why? Columbus and Pittsburgh are a lot more viable than South Bend and Toledo.
charlie hebdoSince it's virtually unused, this could be bought by the government and become part of a passenger-only higher speed or full high speed line from Chicago east.
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