From the article: We Energies is working with Union Pacific to test the concept of having the trains run twice as long as the ones they normally run. This move concerns some Racine officials because of the slow speed restrictions on that portion of the track.
https://www.racinecountyeye.com/mega-coal-trains/
Drivers waiting 15-20 minutes for a train to clear a crossing do not find it acceptable just because drivers arriving at other times will be less likely to encounter a train. That argument is a red herring. Also, people who experience these mega delays at grade crossings will learn to take more chances to beat the train when they see crossing signals come on.
it would be interesting to find out what track speed is through Racine and what speed the coal trains are authorized to move at.
A 3-mile-long train would take 15 minutes to clear a crossing if it was moving at 12 miles per hour.
If it is moving at 45 mph it would take 4 minutes to clear the crossing.
Granted, 4 minutes can feel like an awfully long time if you are staring at what seems like an endless string of bathtub gondolas.
kgbw49 Granted, 4 minutes can feel like an awfully long time if you are staring at what seems like an endless string of bathtub gondolas.
Not if your a rail fan!
Anyway I can understand why local official are against this. 4 mins is still a long wait at a crossing for the average non rail fan! And that’s at a higher than normal speed. Hope UP and the City can negotiate a solution!
Regards, Isaac
I model my railroad and you model yours! I model my way and you model yours!
I wonder if Racine has a resident "white knight" industry similar to what the Mayo clinic was for Rochester?
From the article:
“Racine Fire Department staff have physically timed the regular 147-car trains, which are taking anywhere from 9 to 16 minutes to clear at grade railroad crossings in the City of Racine beginning at Dekoven Avenue. These times were found under the best conditions and assuming there are no mechanical failures to the trains, Chief Hansen said.”
“Alternatively, the railroad may try to increase the train length to 294 cars to equalize the total number of tons delivered with single or double trains,” Conway said.”
Right now they are testing trains at 270 cars.
The trains doubled to 294 cars would take up to 32 minutes to pass over a crossing. So we are not talking about 4 minutes of delay with this issue.
LensCapOnkgbw49 Granted, 4 minutes can feel like an awfully long time if you are staring at what seems like an endless string of bathtub gondolas. Well, not if your me....
Well, not if your me....
Me, too. My wife will drive a mile out of her way to get to an open crossing.
I'll drive a mile out my way to get to a busy crossing.
York1 John
Wow, I can feel their pain having been caught more than once behind Joe Lunchpail on the METRA express heading into Chicago on an Amtrak Milwaukee to Chicago train. Like getting caught behind a school bus that stops at every street corner.
If Racine did'nt have a speed restrion and the train could run at track speed the crossing would not be block anywhere as long.
Caldreamer
The standard Oak Creek trains run around 145 to 150 cars. The 270 car trains are two 135 cars joined together. 135 +/- cars being normal for many other power plants now. I imagine the 294 number comes from putting two normal Oak Creek together.
All the 269/270 car trains they've run come from the same mine. Other mines loading for Oak Creek have been loading the 145+ car trains. I had one from that single mine last trip and it was 146 cars, back to what was normal. They ran 5 trains that I know of. I've heard of two that got knuckles in my area.
That's going to be the biggest concern. When one breaks down, it might take a couple hours to get things back together again. There's few places out here in the sticks where an almost 3 mile train will stop and not block anything. I imagine the closer to larger urban areas and the number of places it will fit is fewer yet.
Jeff
When anyone(?), 'Shopping or delivering kids' Mom, or just 'Joe Citizen' get under a steering wheel; their 'mission' seems to be race to THEIR destination! TIME is their enemy...
THe thrust of the major 'Racine Complaint' seems to be the interdiction of their city services, FD or PD or Ambulance. Sure seems like a case of the squeeking wheel get the attention stuation.
No where is it mentioned in the article that there is a plan to provide responses, by adding locations for any of those required services in the City of Racine.
samfp1943'Racine Complaint'
Russell
kgbw49it would be interesting to find out what track speed is through Racine and what speed the coal trains are authorized to move at.
The issue probably has little to do with the time it takes the double-long train to clear any given crossing at road speed. It's what happens when for any reason the train stops across every crossing for miles around and there are no convenient overpasses or duckunders. Without warning to first responders.
One of the presumptive joys of actually-scheduled PSR is that the railroad could run these trains with Amtrak-level padding so the passage across Racine would be Panama-Limited-set-your-watch-to-the-radio precise. That gets rid of most of the uncertainty about when the mobile Chinese Wall will be afflicting any given location in Racine -- and in fact reduces crossing block time (over the extra approach and clearing time for the 'second independent train) by what may be several minutes a day. The problem still remains what happens if the train dies and can't be split at critical crossings within a reasonably short time.
Argument could be made that with more trains there are more opportunities for collision accidents (or other failures) daily. You're essentially platooning two trains with a very short (~â…›" between knuckle faces?) following distance. Wonder if there is a way to control braking to put the 'joint' at what constitutes the 'middle DPU at a chosen strategic crossing and then have police or other first response get the conductor there ASAP to do the split...
Geez Overmod, that sounds like a real stretch.
Let me see here...
On one hand, we had part of UP working overtime to produce a PR triumph with the Big Boy restoration and the Golden Spike celebrations, and...
On the other hand, we have another part of UP working overtime to produce a PR disaster.
Do the different parts of UP talk to one another? Just asking.
This is NOT a railroad like the Cartier up in Labrador rolling through a wilderness where the only thing the train is going to inconvenience is a moose, nor is it the Rio Tinto rolling through a desert in Australia where it's not going to inconvenience anything besides lizards. Were talking about a populated area with real-live people in it.
And since no-one else has said it yet, I will.
A 270 car train is asinine.
A 270 car train is an incident waiting to happen.
A 270 car train flies in the face of common sense.
That coal isn't going to spoil if it doesn't get to where it's supposed to be right this minute.
What's the point of this? To save a few miserable dollars in crew salaries? Penny-wise and pound foolish. Wait 'till the lawsuits start...
Flintlock76And since no-one else has said it yet, I will. A 270 car train is asinine. A 270 car train is an incident waiting to happen. A 270 car train flies in the face of common sense. That coal isn't going to spoil if it doesn't get to where it's supposed to be right this minute. What's the point of this? To save a few miserable dollars in crew salaries? Penny-wise and pound foolish. Wait 'till the lawsuits start...
To which I would add, JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN, DOESN'T MEAN YOU SHOULD.
Be a good neighbor. The communities have voters that may get legislation passed that you might not want. If these trains tie up towns all along its route, the sum af all the complaints may rise to a turning point.
zardoz Back in my day (1990s) the speed limit on the Kenosha sub through Racine was 30mph; outside the city the limits it was 40. Not too sure what the speed is now. And those speeds were from before the RR fixed up the tracks, getting rid of the stick rail. Kenosha won't be bit too badly due to the elevation thru town, with only one grade crossing at each end of the city.
Back in my day (1990s) the speed limit on the Kenosha sub through Racine was 30mph; outside the city the limits it was 40. Not too sure what the speed is now. And those speeds were from before the RR fixed up the tracks, getting rid of the stick rail. Kenosha won't be bit too badly due to the elevation thru town, with only one grade crossing at each end of the city.
As a current resident of Kenosha, I can tell you speed limits north of the Metra station haven't changed, despite much of the line having welded rail. As was noted, the line through Kenosha is fully elevated for over 5 miles, but crossings begin just north of where the double track reduces to single; there is still potential for problems due to a stalled train on the north end of town.
I don't know the current posted speed limit through Racine (or if there are slow orders that reduce it), but I believe there are only a few places to get across the tracks via an over- or underpass: Durand Ave., 9th St., 6th St., Mound Ave., and Douglas Ave. on the far north end of town. Other than Durand and Douglas, all the other crossings are within a quarter mile of each other on either side of the Root River. As best as I can tell, there are no grade crossings between the Douglas overpass and the Oak Creek power plant.
As much of a railfan as I am, I can completely understand the concerns of the Racine community!
Zardoz, thank you for that information. I thank you for answering my query.
If the track speed is 30 MPH a three mile long train will take 6 minutes to pass.
A 1.5 mile long train will take 3 minutes to pass at 30 mph.
I lived in Rochester during the DM&E proposed coal train project. I was actually one of the local hoi-polloi invited to the dedication of the Gonda Building. If you search the Rochester Post-Bulletin you will find an article on a proposed by-pass that ended up getting significant consideration before the project was stalled after DM&E bought the IC&E properties for an enormous sum of money at the time, which pretty much used up all their financing capacity.
Those 1.5 mile coal trains were to be run through Rochester at 45 mph, which is a speed they could make because they would be running down Byron Hill to the Zumbro River crossing right in downtown Rochester.
They would take 2 minutes to pass at that speed. There were anticipated to be 20 loaded and 20 empty trains each way at build-out. That total amount of delay per day was a big concern and negotiations were undertaken to add two key grade separations in addition to the existing ones due to emergency response concerns.
Emergency response is a big concern. If there are not fire and ambulance services on both sides of the track that can literally be the difference between life and death for a heart attack victim or a whether a house is saved or burns down.
6 minutes is a long time to stare at what seems like an endless string of bathtub gondolas and even the average person who is not a first responder (or not a rail fan) is going to be upset.
samfp1943No where is it mentioned in the article that there is a plan to provide responses, by adding locations for any of those required services in the City of Racine.
Thats not much of a solution. You really need to have all locations of FD stations to have full access to all the locations in the city limits. Otherwise, good luck with multi-alarm fires or the bigger disaster like a plane crash in which your resources are stretched to the limit. In my view they should be working on overpasses and underpasses. When CP took over Milwaukee, way out in the Lake Country they put in a underpass to increase access to the town of Summit. It wasn't that expensive with a steel bridge for the railroad track (less expensive than a new FD location). The railroad track was already elevated at the location. They also replaced the overpass in Nashotah back when I was a kid with a widened concrete bridge. Before it was a very narrow two lane all wood trestle type overpass the railroad put in. So in my view some of these local communities that complain about blocked crossings should have more than enough budget with state aid rolled in to put in an overpass or underpass. I can see the complaint in downtown congested areas but not in the rural areas which both Kenosha and Racine have not too far from downtown. The longer trains only cut off parts of town because the cities only do planning in a reactive rather than proactive manner.
Convicted One I wonder if Racine has a resident "white knight" industry similar to what the Mayo clinic was for Rochester?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
DM&E bought I&M Rail Link for $150 million in 2002.
https://www.joc.com/rail-intermodal/dme-buys-im-rail-link_20020303.html
Five years later, Canadian Pacific bought back the lines it had sold to Washington Companies in 1997, plus the DM&E, for $1.5 billion.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-canadianpacific-dme/cp-rail-agrees-to-buy-dme-for-at-least-1-5-billion-idUSN0543024620070906
Rochester now has the same traffic mix rolling through it - grain trains, ethanol trains, and the occasional manifest - handful of trains per day.
FWIW, This is not new problem. When I was very young (<3) about 1939, I lived in Glen Ellyn IL just South of the ROW of the C&NW and CA&E on a one block long street. The fire dept. station was on the North side of the tracks. A house at the South end of my street caught fire and due to trains blocking the crossings, burned to the ground. I do not know whether anyone died but the house was gone.
Barrington had issues with the CN's traffic on the EJ&E purchase and there was an event of delayed paramedic response. In my minds, RR's are literally "playing with fire" dragging multi-mile long trains through towns. Though not new, public be dammed attitudes I believe will rise to byte them where it hurts.
Despite ongoing consolidation of multiple engine companies in one firehouse, the Chicago Fire Department has maintained a handful of single-engine firehouses in order to maintain some sort of fire coverage in areas (like my old neighborhood) that could get boxed in by blocked grade crossings.
Emergency coverage is often used as a red herring by some municipalities in order to avoid having to build a strategic overpass that they opposed in the past for "esthetic" reasons.
Electroliner 1935FWIW, This is not new problem. When I was very young (<3) about 1939, I lived in Glen Ellyn IL just South of the ROW of the C&NW and CA&E on a one block long street. The fire dept. station was on the North side of the tracks. A house at the South end of my street caught fire and due to trains blocking the crossings, burned to the ground. I do not know whether anyone died but the house was gone. Barrington had issues with the CN's traffic on the EJ&E purchase and there was an event of delayed paramedic response. In my minds, RR's are literally "playing with fire" dragging multi-mile long trains through towns. Though not new, public be dammed attitudes I believe will rise to byte them where it hurts.
Communities that DON'T face the reality of thier situations are just trying to put thier own failings on the backs (and pocketbooks) of the carriers because in most cases, without the carrier having been built in the first place the community never would have been created. Most communities West of the Alleghenies exist only because a railroad went through the place.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD Electroliner 1935 FWIW, This is not new problem. When I was very young (<3) about 1939, I lived in Glen Ellyn IL just South of the ROW of the C&NW and CA&E on a one block long street. The fire dept. station was on the North side of the tracks. A house at the South end of my street caught fire and due to trains blocking the crossings, burned to the ground. I do not know whether anyone died but the house was gone. Barrington had issues with the CN's traffic on the EJ&E purchase and there was an event of delayed paramedic response. In my minds, RR's are literally "playing with fire" dragging multi-mile long trains through towns. Though not new, public be dammed attitudes I believe will rise to byte them where it hurts. Communities that DON'T face the reality of thier situations are just trying to put thier own failings on the backs (and pocketbooks) of the carriers because in most cases, without the carrier having been built in the first place the community never would have been created. Most communities West of the Alleghenies exist only because a railroad went through the place.
Electroliner 1935 FWIW, This is not new problem. When I was very young (<3) about 1939, I lived in Glen Ellyn IL just South of the ROW of the C&NW and CA&E on a one block long street. The fire dept. station was on the North side of the tracks. A house at the South end of my street caught fire and due to trains blocking the crossings, burned to the ground. I do not know whether anyone died but the house was gone. Barrington had issues with the CN's traffic on the EJ&E purchase and there was an event of delayed paramedic response. In my minds, RR's are literally "playing with fire" dragging multi-mile long trains through towns. Though not new, public be dammed attitudes I believe will rise to byte them where it hurts.
It is a two way street. Railroads built into undeveloped territory in the hope of settling it and handling its transportation needs. The focal points of that new settlement are today’s towns. They don’t owe the railroads anything. Without the settlement, the railroads would not exist.
So railroads do not have an unlimited natural right to block grade crossings. DPU has suddenly made much longer trains possible. This will naturally bring to focus the issue of blocking crossings with moving trains, to add to the historical issue of blocking crossings with stopped trains. There is a limit to how far this can go.
Euclid ... Railroads built into undeveloped territory in the hope of settling it and handling its transportation needs. The focal points of that new settlement are today’s towns. They don’t owe the railroads anything. Without the settlement, the railroads would not exist.
This is less a moral question than a purely legal one -- the modern towns don't owe the railroad anything, and its government and residents alike probably, by and large, now see the railroad only as a dangerous nuisance that splits their community. The days when a railroad contributed more than occasional switching to a few facilities are long gone, and we can bewail that as railfans but I doubt it makes any difference to most townspeople. As well try to argue that Southerners have residual 'privilege' from the days of chattel slavery. Now is now. And the usual question will be some variant of 'what have you done for me lately' with the railroad giving a very lame answer at best.
Whether or not the railroad has 'priority' under law means nothing with respect to 'accidental' blockage of crossings for more than the few minutes -- often allotted in local statutes -- a train is allowed to block a crossing in a given town. There is no Federal rule or priority that disallows a town to require a crew to break a train at one or more crossings after a given (usually fairly short; 10-15 minute) time standing. These statutes were likely written and passed in the 'old days' of multiple-person crews and relatively short trains -- I'd be surprised if the crew could even get to the rear end of a doubled coal train (even with motorized aid!) within the appropriate time to set up and break. We won't take up the issue whether the towns understand about brake tests and full inspection after emergency application ... they wouldn't want to hear it anyway.
Once again, this demonstrates the importance of having either a 'bridge capability' in the PTC SDRs, or providing some effective way to establish good communications between the train crew and specific local communities and first response departments. Even a little warning might allow considerable cooperation between railroaders and town to get roads open or trains underway 'timely'.
Balt makes a good point, and maybe there's some things Racine can do that they're not doing, but the fact remains someone at UP hasn't learned the lesson most of us learn as kids, either the hard way or by example, which is...
You don't poke a hornets nest with a stick! You're going to lose, not the hornets.
Flintlock76You don't poke a hornets nest with a stick! You're going to lose, not the hornets.
How about: Never expect to be able to teach a pig to sing, you'll only waste your time and annoy them pig.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.