Murphy Siding Where did the tie spacing standard come from? I walked the length of our spur last week and it reminded me that tie spacing is about 3/4 of an average man's step, so that every other step is on ballast.
Aside from the standard specifications, where they were derived from is a combination of:
A solid mat of ties would spread the load the most, would be the most expensive (esp. when the tie plates and spikes are considered), and impossible to tamp = not very practical.
- PDN.
Simple math tells us that for these tie spacings, the number of ties per mile would be about:
19-1/2" ==> 3,250
20 per 39' rail, about 23-3/8" ==> 2,707
20" ==> 3,170
Back in the day, for lightly used lines (such as yours) the tie spacing would tend to be farther apart.
ConRail specs for industrial spurs were something like 20/ 39' rail for curves up to and including 8 degrees, 24 per 39' rail for curves sharper than that. So most tracks would have a mix of spacings.
mudchicken* 24 ties per rail length ( 19 1/2") spacing is the common standard out west.
Wish I could remember where I saw that it's something like 3200 ties per mile, which is a number I use to explain to folks the cost of rehabbing track.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Murphy Siding rrnut282 Murph, The stringline method still lives. During the line construction project I was involved with twelve years ago, I helped the Track Foreman measure to one side of the centerline and pull a string on the ensuing marks. When the string was properly draped, he used spray paint to locate just one end of the ties as they were placed on the sub-grade stone. That makes sense as the easiest and therefore quickest way to do it. Of course, the *perfect* way to do it would have been to lay out the centerline of the track and then align the centerline of each tie to it.
rrnut282 Murph, The stringline method still lives. During the line construction project I was involved with twelve years ago, I helped the Track Foreman measure to one side of the centerline and pull a string on the ensuing marks. When the string was properly draped, he used spray paint to locate just one end of the ties as they were placed on the sub-grade stone.
Murph,
The stringline method still lives. During the line construction project I was involved with twelve years ago, I helped the Track Foreman measure to one side of the centerline and pull a string on the ensuing marks. When the string was properly draped, he used spray paint to locate just one end of the ties as they were placed on the sub-grade stone.
That makes sense as the easiest and therefore quickest way to do it. Of course, the *perfect* way to do it would have been to lay out the centerline of the track and then align the centerline of each tie to it.
Whose? Varies from 20-24 ties per rail length. Any more, the AREMA standard is being adopted by most. Before the last merger mania, most folks had their own slightly different versions.
* 24 ties per rail length ( 19 1/2") spacing is the common standard out west.
Where did the tie spacing standard come from? I walked the length of our spur last week and it reminded me that tie spacing is about 3/4 of an average man's step, so that every other step is on ballast.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
OT - Tree68's story of the teacher reminded me of a funny story. Young woman in my firearms training class regretted not following the instructor's direction to wear a high-necked cotton T-shirt to the range, when her firing-line neighbor's semi-automatic rifle ejected a spent (but still VERY hot) cartridge case onto her ample and mostly-exposed bosom. The cartridge case stayed where it landed long enough to brand a perfect image of itself onto a tender spot, then fell further down into her clothing. She howled like a banshee, instructor immediately stopped the firing, and in about half a millisecond about two dozen guys offered to help her remove the still-hot cartridge case from her clothing (she turned us down, darn it). The brand must have caused some interesting conversations over the next few months, because from what I saw she only owned extremely low-cut blouses and tops - plus one lonely high-necked cotton T-shirt, beginning the next day.
DeggestyOne thing that freshman lab instructors need to be careful about is taking hold of a piece of tubing which a freshman has heated on the end--my freshman lab instructor forgo oncet, and took hold of the end offered to him. Two years later, I remembered and never embarassed myself in that manner when examining one of my student's work
High school - learning tubing bending skills - One student had created a masterpiece and wanted to show the teacher. Teacher instinctively put his hand out, palm up, to receive (and presumably admire) the student's handiwork.
And promptly got a nice brand, in the shape of the still-hot tubing, on the palm of his hand.
I'm presuming the tubing probably took a ride...
9'-0" Ties common to ATSF and now BNSF main tracks and sidings. 8'-0" ties in the backtracks. (If there were 8'-6" ties somewhere, it was crap from somewhere else used as #2's.) UP also has started using 9 footers. 8'-6" ties would be the average national standard.
Covington Paul: 10 foot ties in concrete crossings is common. The field side crossing panels tend to be larger than their rubber or timber cousins. The overloaded rubber tired bubbas tend to impact the outer edge of the crossings so hard that the end of the tie crushed and then the panel wobbles on the remaining tie (not a good thing and the concrete panel will self destruct if this goes on for a while)
The length of the rail is totally dependent on the billet, which is now why you have the 33-39-78-144 foot lengths. The rolling table length is easier to deal with when changing mill practices.
Two brief discursi into the world of chemistry labs.
One thing that freshman lab instructors need to be careful about is taking hold of a piece of tubing which a freshman has heated on the end--my freshman lab instructor forgot once, and took hold of the end offered to him. Three years later, I remembered and never embarassed myself in that manner when examining one of my student's work
The second incident arose when I was rinsing sulfuric acid bottles--on one occasion, I ran only a little water into the bottle--and when I picked the bottle up, the bottom remained in the sink, neatly cut off by the heat of hydration.
Now, back to railroads
Johnny
Erik_MagSame way glass tubing used in chemistry can be broken cleanly by filing a groove and then snapping the tube at that point.
For larger glassware a much better approach (which translates to context) is to make the small nick, then heat the glassware and then quench it quickly. The resulting stress will provide a much cleaner separation, probably requiring less fire-polishing to give a safe edge.
A somewhat funnier way to accomplish this was inadvertently demonstrated by a hapless high-school chemistry 'colleague', who had discovered the joy of "whistlers". (For those who aren't natural tech hooligans, this consists of filling a relatively tall and thin glass vessel, like a graduated cylinder, with a flammable gas and then lighting the top; as the flame propagates down it causes shockwaves that create a rising whistling tone in the air/gas column inside)
He did this once or twice in a large graduated cylinder (about 500ml as I recall) that had a very small amount of water in the bottom. When he picked the thing up to put it away, the cylinder part separated neatly from the base: the shock had concentrated in the transition fillet there. The look on his face as he realized what his glassware bill had just become was priceless.
Murphy Siding I've read where the old narrow gauge lines were built on the cheap in order to cut costs. Does that mean their ties were little guys too? How 'bout when a narrow gauge was changed to standard gauge? Did having shorter ties limit the loads the trains were able to distibute to the ballast and thus put load restrictions on the line?
I've read where the old narrow gauge lines were built on the cheap in order to cut costs. Does that mean their ties were little guys too? How 'bout when a narrow gauge was changed to standard gauge? Did having shorter ties limit the loads the trains were able to distibute to the ballast and thus put load restrictions on the line?
Narrow gage ties are shorter than standard gage ties, although not necessarily in proportion. Because narrow gage has greater equipment overhang on the track than does standard gage, narrow gage tends to be less stable. So, there is a tendency compensate for the increased instablity of narrow gage by making narrow gage ties relatively longer in relation to gage than is the case with standard gage.
Many narrow gage lines were eventally rebuilt to standard gage. To keep this changeover as quick as possible, it was common to begin using standard gage ties for general tie relplacement maintenance a long time before the intended conversion of gage.
54light15 Cutting glass tubes, eh? I used to do that on boiler sight-glasses using a cutter similar to a strap wrench with cutting wheels. You had to apply hand pressure just so to get a clean break, otherwise it would shatter. I imagine the same thing could and did happen with brittle cast iron.
Cutting glass tubes, eh? I used to do that on boiler sight-glasses using a cutter similar to a strap wrench with cutting wheels. You had to apply hand pressure just so to get a clean break, otherwise it would shatter. I imagine the same thing could and did happen with brittle cast iron.
We cut our sight glasses that way.
Welding on cast iron parts is very difficult too.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Speaking of tie lengths-- it just so happens that last week I was looking at tracks at a road crossing and noticed that the ties next to the crossing (and I assume all of them under the pavement) were about two feet longer than the rest of the ties. Is this standard practice at crossings to distribute the load under the constant pounding of heavy traffic? Is this standard practice system wide, or is it just done in soft ground like ours?
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
The old iron rails were more brittle than current steel rails. A chiseled nick in the rail would presumably start a crack and the hammer blow would lengthen it. Same way glass tubing used in chemistry can be broke cleanly by filing a groove and then snapping the tube at that point.
Murphy Siding Euclid I understand that an early method of cutting rails was to score them with hammer and chissel and then break them. I misread that the first time. It wasn't until I saw Paul's reference to your post that I caught that you said rails and not ties. That makes the rails sound rather fragile.
Euclid I understand that an early method of cutting rails was to score them with hammer and chissel and then break them.
I understand that an early method of cutting rails was to score them with hammer and chissel and then break them.
I misread that the first time. It wasn't until I saw Paul's reference to your post that I caught that you said rails and not ties. That makes the rails sound rather fragile.
In some respects they are. Serious flat spots 'can' act like a chisel on the top of the rail and create a point where the rail can fracture. This is one of the reasons that the Class 1 carriers have installed WILD Detectors (Wheel Impact Load Detectors) which measure in real time flat wheels from minor to major. Major flat wheels after detection are restricted to 10 MPH and must be set off in the nearest set off location. After setout the car department will rewheel the offending axle set. Remember on a 286K loaded car the 'edge' of a flat spot will be hitting the top surface of the rail like a chisel with 37750 pounds of load force plus the speed of the train at impact.
It is not unusual for trains with serious flat wheels to leave track circuits on behind their trains operation - investigation of these track circuits by signal personnel frequently find broken rail(s) to be the cause of the track circuit staying on.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Cannot remember the lengths. But many years ago noted that what is now CalTrain had shorter length ties than what was on other RRs. However as well the ties appeared slightly closer to each other. Is that the same now or has CalTrain changed it as it goes thru the latest tie replacements? Guess for some reason SP when they last laid rail and ties did shorter ties for some reason?
Murphy Siding This month's May issue of Trains Magazine is mostly devoted to the 150th anniversay of the finishing of the first transcontinental railroad. In it, there is a photo of a section of track laid by the Central Pacific Railroad. It shows a section of track where a string line was used to align one end of the ties in a straight line, with the other side running 'wild' as the tie length varied a bit. In the past, we've had some good discussions about why standard railroad gauge is 4'-8-1/2". (The standard conclusion is basically, 'because it's always been that way'.) What is the common length of a railroad tie, and why? I'm guessing it's a nominal 8' length? Also, one of the articles mentions cutting of rails to make a curve. How did they cut rails in the field in 1869? Big, honkin' hacksaw?
In the past, we've had some good discussions about why standard railroad gauge is 4'-8-1/2". (The standard conclusion is basically, 'because it's always been that way'.) What is the common length of a railroad tie, and why? I'm guessing it's a nominal 8' length? Also, one of the articles mentions cutting of rails to make a curve. How did they cut rails in the field in 1869? Big, honkin' hacksaw?
I understand that back in the day - such as during the Transcon and some years afterwards - the standard tie length was 8'. Over the years it was increased to 8'-6", most likely due to increased axle loads. I understand at least 1 western road - ATSF or UP? - had or has a standard length of 9'-0".
Sinec most ties were shipped on flatcars back then - far easier to load and unload by manual labor than in a gondola - the car width would not have been a factor in the tie length.
From a balanced structural perspective, a good tie length would be 10'. Since the rails are just under 5' from center-to-center (not gage faces), a 10' tie would have equal lengths on each side of the rail, and distribute the load a little better than 8'-6". Likely the reason that isn't used is just economics.
Rails back then were cut just as Euclid said - score a line with a chisel and then hit it with a hammer. Since the rails back then were wrought iron, it was reasonably practical. This was still done in some places until the 1940's, even though steel was prevalent - only on small rails, though.
Lengths of rails in the article ranged from 24 ft. (pg. 34, col. 1, and pg. 35, col. 1), 28 ft. (pg. 35, col. 1), and 30 ft. (pg. 34, col. 1 photo caption); all 3 lengths are mentioned in the sidebar in cols. 1 -2 on pg. 36. It says the lengths were limited by the holds and hatchways of the ships.
Back in the 1979 -1980 time frame I did cut a 130 lb. rail with a typical workshop hacksaw, to use as an andiron. Took 2 hours or so with a couple rest periods, and wore out a couple blades. Cut wasn't very straight. Never did it again. Anytime after that when I needed such a thing I was able to nicely 'incentivize' a trackworker to do it with a tool designed for that purpose, either a power hacksaw or an abrasive rail saw.
BaltACD Overmod Erik_Mag The article on track laying mentioned that the rail lengths delivered to the CP varied as a function of what would fit in the holds of the ship. It might be amusing to note that this is still true today, for UP. There is at least one ship that has been specially modified to handle mill rail in lengths that minimize the need for shop joint welding. Of course the length is many times greater... I 'believe' UP is currently getting rail from Japan that is rolled in 480 foot (or thereabouts) lengths. Minimizes plant welding to get to rail train lengths.
Overmod Erik_Mag The article on track laying mentioned that the rail lengths delivered to the CP varied as a function of what would fit in the holds of the ship. It might be amusing to note that this is still true today, for UP. There is at least one ship that has been specially modified to handle mill rail in lengths that minimize the need for shop joint welding. Of course the length is many times greater...
Erik_Mag The article on track laying mentioned that the rail lengths delivered to the CP varied as a function of what would fit in the holds of the ship.
It might be amusing to note that this is still true today, for UP. There is at least one ship that has been specially modified to handle mill rail in lengths that minimize the need for shop joint welding. Of course the length is many times greater...
I 'believe' UP is currently getting rail from Japan that is rolled in 480 foot (or thereabouts) lengths. Minimizes plant welding to get to rail train lengths.
In the August , 2018; TRAINS Newswire: There is a story relating to the delay of the ship "Pacific Spike" and how one of its deliveries to California was delayed by Administration Tarrifs: "UP rail shipment delayed nearly six weeks; Trump's tariffs involved" By Jody Meacham | August 1, 2018
article linked@ https://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2018/08/01-up-rail-shipment-delayed-six-weeks-trumps-tariffs-involved
Article includes photos of the ship and its unloading.
FTA:"...One shipment that took two weeks to cross the Pacific Ocean was held up for nearly six more weeks in San Francisco Bay until the tariff was paid, although a Union Pacific representative says the delay did not slow down the railroad’s rail replacement work..."
Further, FTA:"...The 623-foot cargo ship Pacific Spike, built specifically to carry long rail, entered the bay May 4 but remained there until June 13 and the tariff paid before it completed its voyage to the inland Port of Stockton. UP declined to state who paid the tariff..."
BaltACDI 'believe' UP is currently getting rail from Japan that is rolled in 480 foot (or thereabouts) lengths.
Source of one of the original tariff foofaraws, if I recall correctly. One shipment aboard the Pacific Spike was held up for weeks while discussion went on about the UP's exemption (based on the claim that no domestic supplier could match the unwelded length).
Erik_MagThe article on track laying mentioned that the rail lengths delivered to the CP varied as a function of what would fit in the holds of the ship.
Got my issue last night.
The article on track laying mentioned that the rail lengths delivered to the CP varied as a function of what would fit in the holds of the ship. IIRC, most of the rail was 30' or shorter.
Ties for the CP came mainly from the forests near the CP line over the Sierras and there was plenty of water power avalble to run the sawmills. From what I remember of driving along the Humbolt river, there wasn't much in the way of wod suitable for ties east of the Sierras.
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