charlie hebdo Overmod the 'rest' of the old South Pennsylvania grade
Overmod the 'rest' of the old South Pennsylvania grade
Overmodthe 'rest' of the old South Pennsylvania grade
I thought that became the Penn Turnpike. I imagine a decent RoW could still be cobbled out of several abandoned/underused lines.
Convicted OneWere cars that were originally built for a 6' gauge railroad any wider than modern cars? (think interior dimensions on a typical box car, for example.)
In the era of broad gauge on the Erie, no. (Look at contemporary Great Western practice and some of the early Indian railroads to see what was done).
In modern practice, most certainly yes (although the 'lateral overhang' on the German 3m 'Breitspurbahn' did not seem to be all that great, probably in part due to spot loading of the rail and the supporting structure for potentially unbalanced loads). It has been mentioned specifically that a good 6' gauge setup ought to be able to carry automobiles loaded transversely, something that makes many potential train-ferry operations far more practical than they would be with 'inline' or circus loading. I did some studies that indicated side-by-side loading of ISO series 1 containers 'should' be possible (albeit with so many practical restrictions as to make such a service unlikely) -- this was in the days before stack-trains became widely used and some means of 'doubling up' side-loaded COFC was potentially valuable in increasing effective containers per train for a given siding length. (And you could load things on top of the containers, too, on what amounted to large skeleton pallets...)
People might remember the Trains article from the early '70s about 'the case for the double-track train'. Something of that sort might easily be provided for 'wide-gauge' compatibility with otherwise perfectly-workable standard-gauge HAL structure...
charlie hebdoIf the Erie right of way could be secured, it would be an ideal core for HSR if some extensions into intermediate metro areas could be accomplished.
No better than trying to use the 'rest' of the old South Pennsylvania grade and route for HSR from Philadelphia west to Pittsburgh. Or something like the NY&NE, route of the celebrated White Train, as a basis for the second spine.
If you look carefully at accounts of how the Erie was constructed (and improved) you will find it had plenty of expedient-at-the-time curves, construction on rocky features, and a seemingly endless series of sawtooth grades across most of the route from Pennsylvania on west. Neither of these is remotely amenable to true HSR construction, even if constructed on the 'Chinese model' (of a bunch of strategically-placed columns with precast bridges launched across them by machine). Don't even ask to start feasibility planning if you want to be using a modern tracklaying machine (as in the recent Springfield double-track buildout).
The Ashland Railroad operates on the old Erie from Mansfield, OH to Ashland to West Salem, OH, about 25 miles or so. Ashland also has another line from Mansfield to Willard (old B&O).
Convicted One NKP guy The Atlantic & Great Western Railroad, later leased and owned by the Erie RR, was opened in 1863 with a 6' broad gauge, the same as the Erie had. So, if you had an area that was originally dual main 6' guage.....the overall right-of-way was probably broader to accomodate..... thus making the Erie an ideal route for wide loads Were cars that were originally built for a 6' guage railroad any wider than modern cars? (think interior dimensions on a typical box car, for example.)
NKP guy The Atlantic & Great Western Railroad, later leased and owned by the Erie RR, was opened in 1863 with a 6' broad gauge, the same as the Erie had.
So, if you had an area that was originally dual main 6' guage.....the overall right-of-way was probably broader to accomodate..... thus making the Erie an ideal route for wide loads
Were cars that were originally built for a 6' guage railroad any wider than modern cars? (think interior dimensions on a typical box car, for example.)
If the Erie right of way could be secured, it would be an ideal core for HSR if some extensions into intermediate metro areas could be accomplished.
There is a third segment. The Hoosier Valley Railroad Museum owns the right of way from Monterey to North Judson. Rails are in and used from the former C & O to just past Indiana 10. This came about when a grain elevator purchased the line in order to keep grain shipments going. Later, they deeded the last 800 feet to the museum so they could store C & O 2789. When they closed down, the rest of the property was deeded to the museum.
The Ohio & Mississippi which later became the St. Louis Division of the B&O had a gauge conversion - the story is contained in the following -
http://cincyrails.com/files/FromTheOhioToTheMississippi.pdf
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Another question about the Erie--the cahnge in track gauge was done quickly; how long did it take for the rolling stock to be altered to use the new gauge?
And the same question could be asked about the southern roads that changed their gauge in one day. I do not recall seeing any report on that.
Johnny
Except for the Lakefront Line and some other branches in the Calumet area, the EJ&E was outside the Chicago Switching District and had to be included in any routing instructions, unlike BRC, IHB & B&OCT. The Porter branch connected with the EJ&E main line at Griffith.
Because of its location, EJ&E could not be part of a direct route into Chicago.
Electroliner 1935 I am always amazed at the number of RR routes that entered Chicago from Indiana that are NO longer in operation. Similar lists for the North,West and South can be made. Also, the great number of manned interlocked crossings as they came into the area that are no more. Those I recall are: CCC&StL (to Inianapolis) via IC @ Kankakee C&O (to Cincinnati) via C&WI @ State Line Erie via C&WI @ State Line Monon via C&WI @ State Line Line still exists but enters over CN (former GTW) Michigan Central via IC @ Kensington NKP PCC&StL (PRR) from Logansport, via Air Line Jct with Passenger trains going N to PRR @ Colehour Jct Wabash (to Detroit) via C&WI @ State Line Remaining B&O now CSX to Pittsburgh no longer crosses the Calumet River next to the PRR & NYC. It now heads to Blue Island's Barr yard. NYC (LSMS) Now NS. Pere Marquette (C&O) Used to enter via B&O. Now enters NS (NYC) at Porter IN PRR (from Ft Wayne) Line still exists but no longer enters Chicago. NS has rights over regional owner which now terminates in former NKP (NS) @ Hobart. What did I miss?
I am always amazed at the number of RR routes that entered Chicago from Indiana that are NO longer in operation. Similar lists for the North,West and South can be made. Also, the great number of manned interlocked crossings as they came into the area that are no more.
Those I recall are:
CCC&StL (to Inianapolis) via IC @ Kankakee
C&O (to Cincinnati) via C&WI @ State Line
Erie via C&WI @ State Line
Monon via C&WI @ State Line Line still exists but enters over CN (former GTW)
Michigan Central via IC @ Kensington
NKP
PCC&StL (PRR) from Logansport, via Air Line Jct with Passenger trains going N to PRR @ Colehour Jct
Wabash (to Detroit) via C&WI @ State Line
Remaining
B&O now CSX to Pittsburgh no longer crosses the Calumet River next to the PRR & NYC. It now heads to Blue Island's Barr yard.
NYC (LSMS) Now NS.
Pere Marquette (C&O) Used to enter via B&O. Now enters NS (NYC) at Porter IN
PRR (from Ft Wayne) Line still exists but no longer enters Chicago. NS has rights over regional owner which now terminates in former NKP (NS) @ Hobart.
What did I miss?
The EJ&E had a line to Porter., although I don't know if you consider the "J" as a Chicago road.
Convicted One Erie was originally 6' guage, correct?
Erie was originally 6' guage, correct?
The Atlantic & Great Western Railroad, later leased and owned by the Erie RR, was opened in 1863 with a 6' broad gauge, the same as the Erie had. Through trains with no change of car or gauge began by 1864 to operate from Jersey City to Hamilton (near Cincinnati), Ohio.
In 1880 the entire 325 miles from Dayton to Leavittsburg, Ohio were re-gauged on June 22, by more than 2,500 men stationed along the line. "The work began at 3 AM and ended at 9 AM, 'the shortest piece of work of this kind on record,' according to one newspaper." The same year the Erie (through its midwestern predecessors) opened its line to Chicago from the A&GW (in 1880 it was the New York, Pennsylvania and Ohio, or Nypano, Railroad) connection at Marion, Ohio.
Perhaps the line to Chicago was built to 6' gauge standards, including the necessarily wider right of way.
CSSHEGEWISCH The entrance wasn't that great since they used a joint terminal road (C&WI) once they got into Illinois. Hammond yard was relatively small and a lot of transfers to Clearing were needed to sort the connections.
The entrance wasn't that great since they used a joint terminal road (C&WI) once they got into Illinois. Hammond yard was relatively small and a lot of transfers to Clearing were needed to sort the connections.
Thanks for that clarification. I always believed that the situation was more like you point ou', and when he posted it just didn;t sound right....but I started to supect my memory might be at fault....
not this time anyway.
The passenger insisting on going by Erie from Buffalo to Chicago would take and the evening train from Buffalo southeast to Hornell, NY, and the go west on the Erie Limited on the main line to Chicago. Pass riders possibly did this.
The Erie main line had two advantages: High and wide loads without problems and an excellent direct Chicago entrance.
tpatrick A shipper or passenger in Buffalo bound for Chicago could not take the Erie because Erie had no Buffalo - Chicago line. Buffalo was the west end of its division. The Erie main line went south of Buffalo parallelling the NY/PA state line, the westernmost station in New York being Jamestown. A passenger determined to ride the Erie could take PRR or B&O south from Buffalo and connect with the Erie at Olean NY, Salamanca NY or Corry PA and then ride west.
A shipper or passenger in Buffalo bound for Chicago could not take the Erie because Erie had no Buffalo - Chicago line. Buffalo was the west end of its division. The Erie main line went south of Buffalo parallelling the NY/PA state line, the westernmost station in New York being Jamestown. A passenger determined to ride the Erie could take PRR or B&O south from Buffalo and connect with the Erie at Olean NY, Salamanca NY or Corry PA and then ride west.
tpatrick A shipper or passenger in Buffalo bound for Chicago could not take the Erie because Erie had no Buffalo - Chicago line. Buffalo was the west end of its division. The Erie main line went south of Buffalo parallelling the NY/PA state line, the westernmost station in New York being Jamestown. A passenger determined to ride the Erie could take PRR or B&O south from Buffalo and connect with the Erie at Olean NY, Salamanca NY or Corry PA and then ride west. The Erie/EL did operate from its main line (which could have included traffic from or to Chicago) to Buffalo. One comment pointed out the B&SW line going west and southwest from Buffalo joined the main line east of Jamestown. I don't think there were ever any through passenger trains on the line and the local passenger operation on the B&SW between Buffalo and Jamestown was gone by the 1950's so the statement about no passengers is correct after that time, but shippers is another matter. At one time, through freights did travel to and from the main to Buffalo via the B&SW, but I believe by the 1970's that was over. Probably because of the steep grade climbing up from Buffalo and Lake Erie. There were plenty of timetable restrictions about retainers, etc. because of that grade. In the 1970's, a Buffalo Block was made at Marion and moved east on a Meadville train, MF74, daily. Occasionally, you would get a solid unit coal train for Buffalo off the C&O at Marion. The Buffalo traffic and that occasional through train would move direct to Buffalo via the main, then the River Line between Cuba, NY and River Jct. and then get on the Hornell to Buffalo main at River Jct. Not the most direct route and to go west to the main, the train had to first go east out of Buffalo. If there had been enough Buffalo traffic originating at Chicago, it could have been run in a direct train to Buffalo via this route. As far as I know, that never happened, but as I wrote, there were occasionally solid Buffalo trains originating at Marion and run as a solid Buffalo train all the way to Buffalo from the Erie/EL main.
There is still two remnants active in Indiana. In Decatur, less than a mile is still used to access an industrial park East of town. It is accessed via the former GR&I from Fort Wayne, now just a branch line of regional Chicago, Fort Wayne, and Eastern.
There is another short remnant in Laketon, In that is used to service an asphalt (liquid) distributor. It is accessed via the NS's former Big 4 Michigan Branch.
Most, but not all, state highway bridges over the former Erie have been removed. In places like Huntington, there are now buildings on top of the former R/W.
The poor (literally!) "weary Erie" seems to me to be the Rodney Dangerfield of American railroads ("I get no respect!"). The Erie was an early and interesting trunk line and its spirit is still kept alive today in a few places. For example, in Kent, Oho, a local train of the Akron Barberton Cluster Railway (a subsidiary of the W & LE) uses the former tracks of the Erie to serve a few business customers in the Kent and Ravenna areas several times a week. These former Erie tracks were once the Atlantic & Great Western Railroad (Ohio) and the first shovelful of earth for its construction was turned at the Main Street crossing in Kent in 1853 (and completed in 1863). So today, watching the old switch engines or former road engines of the ABC Ry taking a train back and forth and through Kent is to be reminded of the old Erie Railroad and its role in the history and development of Kent (re-named after Marvin Kent, President of the A&GW RR).
Kent, by the way, is an old Erie (and A&GW beforehand) town that is proud of its railroad history and shows it in a number of ways. For example, some of the A&GW & Erie's former Kent shops (1864) still stand alongside tracks the ABC local uses, and the handsome 1875 passenger station, once one of the two biggest in northern Ohio, was restored and has been a fine restaurant for the past 35 years. It's a great place to eat and see (and feel) the CSX trains rushing through town on the tracks of what some Kentites still refer to as the B&O.
The little bit of the Erie that's still "alive" these days includes Kent. Come and see.
dmoore74 Ah, but in the end it worked out to their advantage, especially when the new S-class Berkshires shows up in the 1920s. By bypassing major cities and their attendant congestion the Erie was able to market itself as a high-speed carrier of perishables and other time-sensitive freights from Chicago to New York, and vice versa. With the new Berkshires they "got it done." tpatrick A shipper or passenger in Buffalo bound for Chicago could not take the Erie because Erie had no Buffalo - Chicago line. Buffalo was the west end of its division. The Erie main line went south of Buffalo parallelling the NY/PA state line, the westernmost station in New York being Jamestown. A passenger determined to ride the Erie could take PRR or B&O south from Buffalo and connect with the Erie at Olean NY, Salamanca NY or Corry PA and then ride west. That was one of the Erie's big problems. It bypassed most of the major cities on its way to Chicago. Cleveland, Cincinnati and Indianapolis were all on branches.
Ah, but in the end it worked out to their advantage, especially when the new S-class Berkshires shows up in the 1920s.
By bypassing major cities and their attendant congestion the Erie was able to market itself as a high-speed carrier of perishables and other time-sensitive freights from Chicago to New York, and vice versa. With the new Berkshires they "got it done."
That was one of the Erie's big problems. It bypassed most of the major cities on its way to Chicago. Cleveland, Cincinnati and Indianapolis were all on branches.
The Erie had a line from Buffalo to the Jamestown area. A few months back it was the subject of a thread on a proposed commuter line.
http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/742/p/271215/3081605.aspx
Erie Western's logo looked very similar due to the circular "E" diamond shape was used like what Erie had and later modified with maroon and grey colors following the Erie Lackawanna merger in 1960.
Much of it was abandoned, scrapped, and they even mined the ballast.
That and the real estate sales made the E-L worth far more dead than alive. The liquidation of the railroad enriched shareholders of the former E-L for a couple of decades. Some major institutional investors cut bait and lost out on tens of millions in profit they could have realized within ten years.
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