The ex SP, and now UP Golden St Route, has an interesting trackage rights history spanning almost 25 yrs. As a result of the 1995 BNSF merger, SP was awarded rights on SF trackage Hutchinson-Chicago. Although rarely used in current times, this rights agreement remains in effect under UP. As a result of the 1996 SP-UP merger, BNSF was given rights on UP from Topeka-Vaughn, NM. Included was access to shippers @ McPherson and Liberal. No such trains have ever operated between Topeka-Hutchinson. West of Hutch to Vaughn, some reroute trains have been operated, most recent as of last summer. On UP, these BNSF trains are operated by the UP crews. In 2003 plans were put in place to begin operating some intermodal service west of Hutch w/BNSF crews. This would have pulled the remaining Z trains off the Raton Pass line and on to UP. Labor relations and the unions crafted Newton-Liberal crew district for this new pool. At 216 miles, this would have been a good paying pool to work. The rd frmn out of Newton became qualified on this run but that is as far as it went. For whatever reason, this fell apart and even though the trains came to UP, BNSF crews never did. I had hoped that some sort of agreement would have come about as I would have been able to hold, at least the bottom 1/3 of the slots. When the double tracking down south came about, that killed any chances of a BNSF pool on the UP Golden St line across southwest KS.
RailRoader608 I understand the Class 1s have agreements in place so that railroads can run trains over one another's track. CSX and NS have a lot of overlap. As do BNSF and UP. If BNSF is running a train on track owned by UP does that train have a BNSF crew or UP crew? Answer: In a true "trackage rights" arrangement, the tenant will use its own crews. How are fees calculated? Train mile? Gross ton-mile? Answer: It varies. Many older trackage rights agreement use car miles. Newer agreements tend to use train miles for ease of administration. But there is no set standard and plenty of exceptions. In the end, it all depends on what the parties negotiate (or, in the case of trackage rights the STB requires in a merger, what the STB imposes) Is there an industry standard $___ per train mile fee or does it vary greatly between areas and railroads? Answer: There is no "industry standard" trackage rights fee. But, as information, the trackage rights fee for the rights BNSF obtained in the UP-SP merger ranged from 3.0 to 3.1 mills per gross ton mile. See STB Finance Docket 32760, Decision No. 44 served August 6, 1996, p. 140 (available on STB website). This has undoubtedly been indexed up over the last 22 years.
I understand the Class 1s have agreements in place so that railroads can run trains over one another's track. CSX and NS have a lot of overlap. As do BNSF and UP.
If BNSF is running a train on track owned by UP does that train have a BNSF crew or UP crew?
Answer: In a true "trackage rights" arrangement, the tenant will use its own crews.
How are fees calculated? Train mile? Gross ton-mile?
Answer: It varies. Many older trackage rights agreement use car miles. Newer agreements tend to use train miles for ease of administration. But there is no set standard and plenty of exceptions. In the end, it all depends on what the parties negotiate (or, in the case of trackage rights the STB requires in a merger, what the STB imposes)
Is there an industry standard $___ per train mile fee or does it vary greatly between areas and railroads?
Answer: There is no "industry standard" trackage rights fee. But, as information, the trackage rights fee for the rights BNSF obtained in the UP-SP merger ranged from 3.0 to 3.1 mills per gross ton mile. See STB Finance Docket 32760, Decision No. 44 served August 6, 1996, p. 140 (available on STB website). This has undoubtedly been indexed up over the last 22 years.
Looking back, I grew up with all sorts of trackage rights operations. South Shore operated over IC between Kensington and Randolph Street, BRC had trackage rights on CWI to South Shore's Burnham Yard, IHB operated over PRR's SC&S and Calumet River lines to serve some steel mills, Monon had unexercised rights over South Shore between Michigan City and Burnham. These are just in or near my old neighborhood, I'm sure there were others.
Trackage rights was, and is, quite common. It might be many miles between stations or less than a mile at a station or terminal area.
Here's a list of trackage rights the Rock Island used over other railroads. The second part of the list is rights used by other railroads over the RI.
https://web.archive.org/web/20160331101821/http://rits.org/www/structures/ritrrts.html
Jeff
Quoting Balt " NS had a line from Jacksonville to Palatka to service several customers. NS abandoned that line but negotiated trackage rights with CSX to operate a NS crew from Jacksonville to Palatka to service those customers and return the freight to the NS yard at Jacksonville." Balt, the Southern's line to Palatka left the Macon-Jacksonville line at Valdosta and from there went to Palatka. I do not doubt that the cost of using the NS' line from Valdosta to Jacksonville and then using the CSX from Jacksonville to Palatka is less than the cost of maintaining the GS&F's original line down to Palatka from Valdosta.
Incidentally, KCS Fan (may his soul rest in peace) once posted of riding in the car with his father along that section and they were passed by a GS&F freight as his father was driving at about the speed limit. I would say that the engineer knew his road.
Johnny
DeggestyThe Southern not only granted trackage rights to other roads, it used trackage rights, such as its Chattanooga-Memphis trains used the NC&SL (later, the L&N) from Wauhatchie, just outside Chattanooga, to Stevenson, Alabama. This arrangement was made, I believe originally, between the Memphis and Charleston RR and the Nashville and Chattanooga RR. So far as I know, it is still in effect between NS and CSX.
It is! And remains a constant source if irritation for NS. (As does the Decatur bridge for CSX, I suppose!)
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
So, the simple answer to railroader608's question is "it's complicated..."
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
The Southern not only granted trackage rights to other roads, it used trackage rights, such as its Chattanooga-Memphis trains used the NC&SL (later, the L&N) from Wauhatchie, just outside Chattanooga, to Stevenson, Alabama. This arrangement was made, I believe originally, between the Memphis and Charleston RR and the Nashville and Chattanooga RR. So far as I know, it is still in effect between NS and CSX.
The one thing I would add to the responses already made on this thread is that grants of trackage rights are very often "reciprocal", although this may not appear from the terms of the trackage rights agreements themselves. What I mean by this is that RR 1 will grant trackage rights to RR 2 on a line in California in return for RR 2 granting trackage rights to RR 1 on a line in Illinois. The tradeoff may be documented in a "memorandum of understanding" (MOU) between the two railroads, but won't appear in the actual trackage rights agreements filed with the STB (it doesn't have to) - they will be treated as two separate grants, each governed by its own agreement. As can be seen in my example, the two grants may have no operational relationship. The relationship is that each railroad believes the benefits the other railroad is receiving from the deal is roughly "balanced" by the benefits it is receiving.
Flintlock76I don't know if this is done now, but in the old days "foreign" trains coming through on trackage rights would keep their own head-end crews but would be provided with a pilot from the host 'road as an advisor on signals and track conditions.
What you are really talking about are 'Detour Movements' - in the 'old days' with multiple carriers having routes between A and F, if carrier #1 had a derailment on their line between A & F they would request of Carrier #2 to detour their trains between the connections the carriers had at A & F. Carrier #1's crews would operate and be piloted by Carrier #2's crews between A & F. Normally both a Engineer and Conductor pilot would be provided. With today's Class 1 carriers this rarely happens as there are very few parrallel routes left - with all the 'plant rationalization' that has happened as the number of Class 1 carriers has reduced to the present number. I believe there is a specified Mileage Charge for each train that is detoured.
Illustration of trackage rights - NS had a line from Jacksonville to Palatka to service several customers. NS abandoned that line but negotiated trackage rights with CSX to operate a NS crew from Jacksonville to Palatka to service those customers and return the freight to the NS yard at Jacksonville. What the financial elements of the deal were - I have no idea. At least a portion of what NS was saving on abandoning the line was spent on CSX for the trackage rights.
As has been mentioned - there are as many different Trackage Rights Agreements as their are Trackage Rights Agreements - each agreement is negotiated in the position where BOTH parties gain from the agreement depending upon the local conditions of the agreement.
Trackage Rights Agreements are different from Joint Facility Agreements where two or more carriers have operating rights at the same point on each of their railroads. Towers and locations like Fostoria when the NKP, C&O & B&O were financially goveren by a Joint Facility Agreement that specified who controlled what and who paid for what.
Additionally there are Haulage Rights Agreements wherein Carrier #1 hauls the freight of Carrier #2 in Carrier #1's trains for a specified charge.
The various carriers have any number of agreements between themselves to cover the particular situations and opportunities that have grown up between the carriers and their operational and financial aims.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
They do not happen unless the ICC or STB allowed it in a filing. The actual agreements are private between the two parties and are not available to the general public (The STB has confidential copies in most cases)....Overhead rights, trackage rights, jointlines and the like are all special critters with tons of supporting paperwork.
CSSHEGEWISCH Flintlock76 I don't know if this is done now, but in the old days "foreign" trains coming through on trackage rights would keep their own head-end crews but would be provided with a pilot from the host 'road as an advisor on signals and track conditions. This sounds more like the crew arrangement when a detour is involved.
Flintlock76 I don't know if this is done now, but in the old days "foreign" trains coming through on trackage rights would keep their own head-end crews but would be provided with a pilot from the host 'road as an advisor on signals and track conditions.
I don't know if this is done now, but in the old days "foreign" trains coming through on trackage rights would keep their own head-end crews but would be provided with a pilot from the host 'road as an advisor on signals and track conditions.
When Amtrak detours across Wyoming between Denver and Salt Lake City, UP provides pilot conductors and pilot engineers-- and the UP conductor is in charge as #5 backs into Salt Lake City (I honestly do not rember if the Amtrak conductor or UP conductor directs the engineer as #6 backs into Denver.over former RG track from Utah Junction to the station).
On one eastbound trip, at a time when the UP was doing extensive work on the former Rio Grande, I asked the Amtrak assistant conductor if he shouldn't be qualified between Salt Lake and Green River after making so many trips, and he told me he did not want to be qualified.
CSSHEGEWISCH That makes sense. I'm sure B&O and Reading crews running on the Jersey Central tracks to Jersey City and the O&W crews on the NYC's West Shore Line didn't need pilots, considering they did so on a regular basis. Flintlock76 I don't know if this is done now, but in the old days "foreign" trains coming through on trackage rights would keep their own head-end crews but would be provided with a pilot from the host 'road as an advisor on signals and track conditions. This sounds more like the crew arrangement when a detour is involved.
That makes sense. I'm sure B&O and Reading crews running on the Jersey Central tracks to Jersey City and the O&W crews on the NYC's West Shore Line didn't need pilots, considering they did so on a regular basis.
I wonder how the track owners view these arrangements. What's in it for them? Does the government compel the railraods to play well with one another to create a more efficient network? Do they see it as selling excess track capacity and as long as they make enough to cover increased maintenance +$1 then it's a good deal? Or is it a more serious profit center for the track owners?
I know these questions might not be answerable but I'm throwing out the questions popping up in my head.
As Larry noted, it can be part of a merger agreement, often to satisfy a railroad that thinks it would be hurt by the merger or purchase. Today, Canadian Pacific trains can run between Minneapolis-St.Paul and Duluth-Superior on BNSF trackage because in 1900 the Milwaukee Road was given trackage rights over the St. Paul & Duluth RR's line in return to dropping it's objections to Northern Pacific buying the St.P & D.
The two previous replies shed light on some of the complexites in trackage rights agreements. My experience is that each will be unique to the specifics involved and even after the agreement is executed it may (will) be revised as circumstances change for either participant. There is no set pattern; it s all subject to negotiation, recognizing the uniqueness of the given needs and responsibilities.
Some agreements are leftovers from mergers, etc, some are as the result of a Class 1 wanting to shed some trackage (giving a shortline access to the main to handle the traffic the Class 1 doesn't want to deal with), some might involve a marriage of convenience for both parties.
The crews have to be qualified on the track in question. If railroad A has trackage rights on railroad B, either RR A's crews will be qualified, or RR B will provide crews under some arrangement with A.
I'd be amazed to find two such agreements that were identical (the railroads involved notwithstanding)...
Each is nogotiated individually. If it is trackage rights, tennant road provides crew and equipment stays in tennant's car hire accounts. There are several other types of agreements that get complicated quickly.
If BNSF is running a train on track owned by UP does that train have a BNSF crew or UP crew? How are fees calculated? Train mile? Gross ton-mile? Is there an industry standard $___ per train mile fee or does it vary greatly between areas and railroads?
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