Passenger Train Survey

[robscaboose]

[:D][:D][:D][:D] I had a friend of mine who was a hogger on the NKP out of Charleston Il. He told me that the IC had slow orders (90mph) when they went through Neoga Il. (half way between Mattoon & Effingham).

Rob

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

In any discussion of speed, let's not forget the interurbans. A trade magazine (the name escapes me at the moment) sponsored a speed contest and trophy beginning in 1924 and the trophy was retired to the North Shore Line in 1933 after three consecutive wins. The South Shore Line won the trophy in 1929 and 1930.

And who can top North Shore's advertising slogan: "Did you ever travel 80 miles an hour?"

[Grinandbearit]

Now the VIA trains 66& 67,Toronto -Montreal corridor do that trip in 3:59 with P42s and only one stop.

[passengerfan]

Canadian National Railways Rapido trains of the late 1960's early 1970's were no slouches when it came to speed covering the 335.4 miles between Montreal and Toronto with two stops in 4:59. for an overall average speed of 67 miles per hour. Their were two Rapidos Daily in each direction. Later the CN turbos took over the route and cut another thirty minutes from the schedule.

[joesap1]

I don't know about today, but back in the sixties the railroaders always knew the best places to eat. The North Platte Cafe, which was across the street from the depot served delicious meals cheap. I remember getting a complete meal with dessert(a bowl of ice dream) for $1.10.

[MP173]

Greyhound:

Just pulled my photo...it was a northbound, probably based on the lighting, around 6pm, pulled by a GE Uboat. Must have been #50.

ed

[greyhounds]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173

The ATS was between Champaign and Centralia.

Mitch: I have been to Tolono myself, about 10 years after you. I spent the day there and got to know the operator (A man named Daryl Kearns accordign to my notes). Took lots of photographs that day. By then the Illinois Central passenger fleet was gone, but there were many freights on both the IC and the NW.

A couple of highlights occured late in the day. A northbound IC piggyback, I believe it was #51 (one of the first all piggyback trains I ever saw) and a westbound NW with UP units.

Today, the majority of trains I see are intermodal and there are UP units everywhere.

I also spent a lot of time down at Effingham. Lots of good times there. The operator was in the depot and would have absolutely nothing to do with me. He would close the door to avoid me. But, I could look thru the ticket window and see the interlocking board whenever I heard the "DING" that announced a train had hit the circuit.

I was always fascinated by trains receiving train orders either from the operator or from the train order posts.

Ed

#51 was a southbound. This varied a little but for most of my time at the ICG we originated five intermodals out of Chicago. 51 and 53 ran the main line with 53 terminating at Jackson, MS and 51 going into New Orleans. We also ran the "Slingshots" to Venice (St. Louis) three times a day These were trains 45, 47 and 49.

Northbound counterparts were 50, 52, 44, 46 and 48.

There was a connection out of Venice to connect with 52 and 53 with St Louis traffic.

[daveklepper]

QUOTE: Originally posted by artmark

Since ya brought it up, here's the King's Dinner, right from an IC menu card.

Manhattan or Martini Cocktail
Appetizers
Fresh Gulf Shrimp Cocktail
Crab Fingers (Special sauce)
13 oz. bottle of Imported Bertoli Vinrosa
The Fish Course
Charcoal Broiled Boneless Sirloin Steak
Choice of potato and Vegetable
A Special Salad created by your Waiter
Dinner Bread
A Heady cheese with Apple wedges
Toasted saltines
I.C. Coffee
Liqueur (Creme de Cocao, Creme de Menthe or Blackberry Liqueur)

$9.85 (1965 money)

Makes me want to head for the Amcafe and try out a frozen sandwich. Or as we would say about a PC cafe car, "Let's go back for a stale cheese sandwich and a warm Fresca."

Mitch

Thanks, Mitch. I'll download it for my own records!

[daveklepper]

But you will have to admit that the Amcafe is a big improvement over the PC cafe car! I remember the dissapointment when the Central axed the diners on the Detroit - Chicago trains. But then the Grand Trunk came through with the Mowhawk, a really wonderful little train that almost matched the NYC (Michigan Central) Chicago - Detroit time, despite its going via Durand. The rebuilt heavyweight diner with its snappy walnut interior and excellent food. And the train always clean.

Keep Kosher now. Didn't in the days of the King's Dinner, obviously. But Amtrak has Tropicana organge juice and plastic wrapped bagles with the OU (Orthodox Union) label. And if one does order a Kosher meal for serving in a diner or cafe car, it is usually there, sometimes even with an extra just in case, and it is equal to what airlines do for first class passengers in that situation. But there are the orange juice and bagels just in case one changes one's plans, a connection is missed, or whatever.

About ten years ago I rode a sleeper from Bucharest, Rumania, to Biograd/Belgrade Yugoslavia/Serbia. In the morning I asked the attendant: "Where is the dining car?" :"No dining car." was the answer, so I continued. "What about food." "No food." "How long until we get to Biograd?" "Another six hours." "Anything to drink?" "Yes" -And he showed be to a large refrigorator at one end of the car, and he opened the door, and there were about 100 bottles of Pepsi-Cola. "Take as many as you want." (I think I consumed about 16 during those six hours.)

[Anonymous]

Since ya brought it up, here's the King's Dinner, right from an IC menu card.

Manhattan or Martini Cocktail
Appetizers
Fresh Gulf Shrimp Cocktail
Crab Fingers (Special sauce)
13 oz. bottle of Imported Bertoli Vinrosa
The Fish Course
Charcoal Broiled Boneless Sirloin Steak
Choice of potato and Vegetable
A Special Salad created by your Waiter
Dinner Bread
A Heady cheese with Apple wedges
Toasted saltines
I.C. Coffee
Liqueur (Creme de Cocao, Creme de Menthe or Blackberry Liqueur)

$9.85 (1965 money)

Makes me want to head for the Amcafe and try out a frozen sandwich. Or as we would say about a PC cafe car, "Let's go back for a stale cheese sandwich and a warm Fresca."

Mitch

[daveklepper]

Remember the King's Dinner in the Panama's dining car? 10 dollars and something like six courses and wine or beer or liquer. And a little gold crown pin. And the cards with the names of the guests on the Pullman room doors. The Panama and the Broadway were the last two all-first-class trains unless one counts the Super Chief during the heavy travel season.

[joesap1]

My Grandfather was an engineer on the UP from the thirties to the sixties. He made his runs from North Platte to Grand Island, NE. Towards the end of his career he would run the numbers 5 and 6 mail trains and would get the City of Los Angeles went those with more senority went on vacation.
He told me that the UP passenger trains he operated ran around 90 mph maximum in the open spaces. I don't know if the City of Los Angeles ever topped the century mark. When I rode it from Upland, CA to North Platte we seemed to be passing the wind as we crossed the wide open spaces in Nevada, Utah, and Wyoming.
The best past of those trips was not the speed, or even the luxury of one meal in the dome diner. It was the treatment of the crew towards me as a young man traveling alone( I was 12-14 years old). They would look after me and keep me in stitches with their tales as I sat with them in the diner long after it closed.

[Anonymous]

The first Don Steffee Speed Survey in Trains was the May 1954 issue; I think they may have been done in Railroad Magazine before that. In the '54, '55, and '56 surveys, the City of New Orleans(and some other IC trains), were listed, showing average speeds of around 80 mph over selected parts of the IC system.

[gbrewer]

I too remember the fast trains of the IC (and other lines). As a boy, my family used to travel the highway from the Chicago suburbs to Philo, Illinois (near Urbana). I remember how we were left in the dust as the fast passenger trains passed in very little time. I also remember seeing steam mostly on freights.

Later I traveled much the same route when going to college at the U of I. On two occasions I had the pleasure of riding from Kankakee to Urbana. The run seemed very fast, indeed. On one occasion I rode the parlor car and remember seeing passengers wobbling down the aisle while in train was in considerable motion. Then, at a stop, I saw some of them wobbling still.

I don't believe the federal speed restrictions were imposed until some time later (following some disastrous wreck, as I seem to remember). Later while riding (I think it was) the Denver Zephyr through Iowa, I remember the brakeman telling me that, "This is 100 mile per hour track, you know." The law had recently been passed.

I also remember a very fast ride on the Texas Chief through Arkansas.

Yes, the passenger speed records were an annual feature of TRAINS back then.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173

Mitch:

We have to get together. Did you get my email last week? If not I know I can be reached thru the email here.

ed

Ed,
I sent you an email from the board. Please advise. Otherwise I'll have to post my phone number here and I'll get calls.
Make sure you get this Sunday's NW Indiana Times. Look at my cartoon poster in the Forum section.
Mitch

[MP173]

Mitch:

We have to get together. Did you get my email last week? If not I know I can be reached thru the email here.

ed

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton

"A bad day on the IC would be when there was a lash-up of E units and the grills didn't match." Mitch

And Wayne Johnston would be calling the passenger locomotive department to find out who caused the foul-up.

Jay (sigh)

Jay,
That was just it on the IC. Nothing but IC colored equipment on the passenger trains and matched motive power.
I believe it was Wayne Johnston who said "The passenger train is the window through which the public judges the entire operation of the railroad."
He also said that the Panama Limited kept the Illinois Central name in the minds of the public.
I think his words are true today.
I believe I learned my sense of order from the operation of the IC. Especially the suburban service. It was my father who did that illustration of the suburban train with the Prudential Building in the backround on the Electric timetable, along with "IC Electricland" car cards. The end of the Green Diamond insignia, and the dawning of the split-rail marked the beginning of the end, in my thinking, of all order and logic.
Mitch

[jeaton]

"A bad day on the IC would be when there was a lash-up of E units and the grills didn't match." Mitch

And Wayne Johnston would be calling the passenger locomotive department to find out who caused the foul-up.

Jay (sigh)

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by farmer03

i'm jealous. you guys got to see all this back in the 'glory days'... by the time i developed a somewhat healthy interest and when i could finally drive to go do some snoopin around it was 1996, not much left in the way of variety.

that's something. Back in '65 we were standing around telling older folks we were jealous because they got to see the glory days of steam, and standard weight passenger trains.
But back in those days, and well into my railroad career, the only thing that was different was the motive power. We still had to catch train orders on the fly. There were still 5 man crews in Wisconsin. The early Amtrak jobs that I worked still had steam heat and real diners. On number 7 we would have dinner out of Wisconsin Dells.
On those days that we headed down to Tolono our first stop was at Kankakee to see the All-Pullman Panama. Then we would see IC no 1, the City of New Orleans fly by with about 16 cars including a round-end observation. All the equipment matched perfectly. A-B-A E units and a shiny string of brown and orange passenger cars. Then we would stop at Gilman. We saw The Green Diamond on its way to St Louis branch off to the west. It still had its parlor car along with a diner and coaches. A bad day on the IC would be when there was a lash-up of E units and the grills didn't match.
Next, The Seminole, with heavy-weight coaches, an old diner, and a Pullman would stop at Gilman. When we got to Tolono we saw the Wabash Cannonball. It had 2 passenger Geeps, an RPO, a diner-lounge, and 2 coaches. The brakeman was old enough to have been the ring bearer at Mathuzalah's wedding. The conductor was old enough to be his father. Just think. an obsure train from Detroit to St Louis had all that service. the agent at Tolono was very good to us, as were a number of agents and operators at the time. They all had a refridgerator full of soda and always would let us help ourselves. We would bring them sandwiches.
Those really were the good old days, as impractical, and un-profitable as they were. there was a distinct railroad flavor that captured some old and true Americana that's just plain lost.
Mitch

[tree68]

My railfan days in IL date to the middle 70's - the Amtrak era. I do recall standing near the tracks in Ludlow, IL as an SDP40 and train blew by at speed, headed south. Makes you take notice. No idea what train it might have been...

[passengerfan]

For Many Years the CB&Q Morning Zephyr beftween La Crosse and Prairie Du Chien held the record followed by the Milwaukee and IC but the Santa Fe Super Chief and El Capitan held the record for the greatest distance in excess of 90mph mostly in the state of Kansas and stretches in New Mexico and Arizona.

[Anonymous]

i'm jealous. you guys got to see all this back in the 'glory days'... by the time i developed a somewhat healthy interest and when i could finally drive to go do some snoopin around it was 1996, not much left in the way of variety.

[MP173]

The ATS was between Champaign and Centralia.

Mitch: I have been to Tolono myself, about 10 years after you. I spent the day there and got to know the operator (A man named Daryl Kearns accordign to my notes). Took lots of photographs that day. By then the Illinois Central passenger fleet was gone, but there were many freights on both the IC and the NW.

A couple of highlights occured late in the day. A northbound IC piggyback, I believe it was #51 (one of the first all piggyback trains I ever saw) and a westbound NW with UP units.

Today, the majority of trains I see are intermodal and there are UP units everywhere.

I also spent a lot of time down at Effingham. Lots of good times there. The operator was in the depot and would have absolutely nothing to do with me. He would close the door to avoid me. But, I could look thru the ticket window and see the interlocking board whenever I heard the "DING" that announced a train had hit the circuit.

I was always fascinated by trains receiving train orders either from the operator or from the train order posts.

Ed

[jeaton]

I remember seeing that kind of survey. I made a brief try at finding a reference in the index of magazines with out any luck. It might have been in Railway Age rather than Trains.

At any rate, sometime in the'60s, the IC had 100 MPH top legal speeds between Champaign and Duqoin and The Milwaukee Road had the same between Tomah and Watertown, WI.. The survey I remember noted average start to stop average speed on both lines in the high 90s.

Been on both many times. They were some rides.

Jay

[Anonymous]

Back in the old days (1966) my friends and I would go to Tolono, Illinois, just south of Champaign, to watch the IC. Many enginemen stated that they would have IC no 2 up to 112 mph or so. I believe the IC had cab signals to permit speeds above 79mph. Our finale for the evening would be to watch no 2 come through Tolono at speed. There was no doubt in our mind that the speed of no 2 was cracking the century mark. It seemed to beat the gates going down.
Mitch

[MP173]

I dont think they averaged 112 mph, as the speed limit for the line was 100mph and that was due to the cab signals, or perhaps automatic train stop system.

The southbound City of Miami left Champaign at 10:10am and arrived in Mattoon at 10:45...35 minutes for 44.5 miles, an average speed of 76.28mph. That was point to point running, stops at both locations. Not bad. This is according to my 1953 Official Guide, or at least I think it is 1953, the cover is missing.

The Panama Limited was not scheduled to stop in Mattoon or Effingham. Both, however were flag stops for passengers for Memphis and beyond. The Panama left Champaign at 6:55 pm and arrived at Centralia at 8:36pm ... 1 hour 41 minutes for 124.6 miles, or 74 mph.

My aunt rode the IC many times from Mattoon, her husband was a laborer for the IC and she had a pass. She told me of stories of trips she would take. Many Wednsdays, her day off, she would go to Chicago with her neighbor, also a railroad wife for lunch. She would take a morning train in and return in the evening.

In my mind I could always envision those trains and her trips. I never got to go with her, but no doubt her stories, plus the daily Illinois Central local freights on our branch line formed a lasting impression on a young boy.

Hope this helped.

ed

[Anonymous]

Many years ago Trains Magazine published an annual listing of the fastest scheduled passenger trains in the US. In the 1948-1950 (+or- two years) time period the IC's City of New Orleans topped the list with a scheduled speed of 112+mph between Champaign and Matoon or maybe Effingham, IL. If any body has access to these surveys I'd greatly appreciate info regarding the CNO's speed, time, distance, between what points, year, etc. Many thanks,

Mark Foster