How long did the New York Central run it's trains at street level down 4th Street into Manhattan before they sunk the tracks below street level and renamed the street Park Avenue..................does anyone know about the date that happened?
Allegedly they first put the tracks in a trench down 4th street after the street level running period then they converted to a tunnel.
Fourth Avenue, not fourth Street. Generally, for Manhattan and The Bronx, avenues run North and South, and streets East and West.
The original New York and Harlem was on street level below 32md Street and was never depressed. By the middle of the 19th Century, steam was banned south of 29th street, and had never been regularly used south of 23rd Street. 32 - 33 was a ramp down to a cut, which continued to 42md Street, which was crossed at street level.. This was roofed over and made a tunnel 1852. When the original Grand Central Depot construction began 1859, since steam was banned south of 42nd Street, and 4th Avenue became Park Avenue north 23rd Street. Horse cars that had provided service along with steam trains, were diverted north of 42nd Street, 1857, to the newly graded Madison Avenue, halfway between Park and 5th Avenues. Original Park Avenue construction was in cut and a tunnel betwen 42nd and 105th Street. I'm uncertain when the tracks north to the Harlem River were raised from street level to a structure. At that time, the cut and tunnel (which was in the Marble Hill area, 51st - 70th street) were widened frm two to four tracks. The cut was roofed over north of 42nd Street as part of the electrification,1906, and the construction of the New Grand Central Terminal.
The tunnel between 33rd Street and 42nd Street was shunnortend to 41st Street when streetcars in the tunnel, with two underground stations, were replaced by the still existing M1 bus line in December 1935, and made into the present Park Avenue Vehicular Tunnel, with Robert Moses insuring that concrete was used to restrict clearances to prevent anything but private automobiles from using that tunnel. For a while, local service was still provided on Park Avenue north of Grand Central Terminal, wih underground stations at 57th and 86th Street, but that was discontinued with the opening of the IRT Lexington Avenue Subway. around 1917. Local service is still provided in the cut in Park Avenue in The Bronx,with only the station at 138th Street ended. 125th Street, on an elevated structure, is still important.
Presently the tunnel ends at 97th Street, then as the ground elevation falls, the track level rises in a few blocks to a viaduct. I believe 102nd St. is the first street the elevated structure crosses over.
Dave K. and anyone else, interested in the 'High Line' in NYC.. Here is a link for walking tours, and explanations of other interest points on the 'High Line' in NYC.
Linked @https://freetoursbyfoot.com/high-line-map/
daveklepper
The High Line park is awesome! I was there a few years ago and the tracks are still there with wooden chaise lounges mounted on small flanged wheels so they can be moved around. For the most part they are planked over but in areas they tracks are visible.
The High Line is a separate line from the line down 4th (Park) Avenue that the OP was asking about. The Park Ave. line is the main passenger line into GCT. The High Line was the freight line that ran down the West Side of Manhattan, and is abandoned below the NYP connection. They both had long tunnel and viaduct segments.
Were there ever any crosstown railroad tracsk in Manhattan?
MidlandMike The High Line is a separate line from the line down 4th (Park) Avenue that the OP was asking about. The Park Ave. line is the main passenger line into GCT. The High Line was the freight line that ran down the West Side of Manhattan, and is abandoned below the NYP connection. They both had long tunnel and viaduct segments.
Thanks, I knew that from my readings but didn't want to start that argument. The High Line as far as I can tell was primarily to serve the old docks (wharf related warehouse areas) used for shipping and they also had an occasional spur to some of the MFG companies. High Line was former New York Central track as well?
Also, city street running not uncommon for railroads before the big stations were built, Dallas had it before it's union station. I think PACIFIC ave in Dallas was so named because Texas and Pacific or Missouri Pacific used to use it to reach it's own seperate station before Dallas Union Station was built. Same with MKT and a few other lines (Santa Fe?) ran down streets to their own stations in Dallas. Chicago had street running as well prior to Northwestern Station and CUS. Milwaukee had Street running prior to it's large Milwaukee Road station in Milwaukee. The first Milwaukee Road station was actually a terminal for a while because Milwaukee had no tracks to Chicago from Milwaukee at first.
CMStPnPThe High Line as far as I can tell was primarily to serve the old docks (wharf related warehouse areas) used for shipping and they also had an occasional spur to some of the MFG companies. High Line was former New York Central track as well?
chutton01 CMStPnP Well, not exactly, as the docks were served by various float-serviced yards along the West Side (and yes, some trackage off the NYC West Side line), as can be confirmed by spending an pleasent afternoon perusing the famous "Industrial, Off-line Terminals & Rail-Marine Operations..." website. There were a number of such yards back in the heyday (10 IIRC, although some were just pier stations).However: "NYC West Side Line" may provide further info if you haven't seen it already. In general, the highline portion (sub-33rd st - the, well, elevated portion) handled the numerous meat, produce, and other food wholesalers and processors along the line, along with various manfucturers and distributors and, at St. John's Park freight station at the end of the line, LCL and Express.
CMStPnP
Well, not exactly, as the docks were served by various float-serviced yards along the West Side (and yes, some trackage off the NYC West Side line), as can be confirmed by spending an pleasent afternoon perusing the famous "Industrial, Off-line Terminals & Rail-Marine Operations..." website. There were a number of such yards back in the heyday (10 IIRC, although some were just pier stations).However: "NYC West Side Line" may provide further info if you haven't seen it already. In general, the highline portion (sub-33rd st - the, well, elevated portion) handled the numerous meat, produce, and other food wholesalers and processors along the line, along with various manfucturers and distributors and, at St. John's Park freight station at the end of the line, LCL and Express.
To add a big YESSIR! to chutton01's linked sites: To anyone wishing to do a deep dive into the railroading environment of NYC in the early 20th Century. There is a massive site @ http://members.trainweb.com/bedt/BEDT.html
Specifically, it is the home of the Brooklyn Eastern District Terminal Railroad. and its ancillary lines of The Palmer's Dock East River Terminal RR and the B.E.D.T. It is a huge site with much information, and many photos, its principle author is Phillip M. Goldstein (Flynn,Tx). It is a fascinating compliation, and is worthy of one spending a week-ends time reading and digesting it.
And also, while on the subject of Street Operations in New York City, also in New Jersey, as well, as in parts of the Baltimore area.
One has to mention the T.V. Buckwalter Street Locomotives, built in Altoona, Pa for principally, the PRR; and some were used into the 1950's and possibly into the 1960's(?). The original units were battery operated, and later repowered by gasoline engines. They were equipped with solid rubber tires, groved to the gauge of the railroad, but able to operate on very tight industrial cureatures, while switching industrial sidings. They were an outgrowth of Buckwalter's electric/battery powered platforms that handled luggage and mail around passenger terminals.
A linked site with photos is @ http://prr.railfan.net/RubberTiredSwitchers.html
The NYC West Side Freight Line also had substantial mail business. A spur off the High Line went into the big PO facility adjacent to Penn Station
Some of the NYC "Pier Stations" had float bridges and small areas of street running not connected to the West Side line even when it was on the surface. B&O had a freight house in lower Manhattan served in a similar fashion.
samfp1943To add a big YESSIR! to chutton01's linked sites: To anyone wishing to do a deep dive into the railroading environment of NYC in the early 20th Century. There is a massive site @ http://members.trainweb.com/bedt/BEDT.html Specifically, it is the home of the Brooklyn Eastern District Terminal Railroad. and its ancillary lines of The Palmer's Dock East River Terminal RR and the B.E.D.T. It is a huge site with much information, and many photos, its principle author is Phillip M. Goldstein (Flynn,Tx). It is a fascinating compliation, and is worthy of one spending a week-ends time reading and digesting it.
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