I recently traveled through NY city on my way to Florida. I know that Amtrak uses Pennsyvannia station and also Grand Central Terminal. My question is this; sometimes I hear people refering to Grand Central as station. Is this acceptable or is there a difference between the monikers?
Grand Central is a "terminal" because it is at the end of the line - you can't go any further on rails. There is (or maybe was, since the Postal Service has closed lots of things) a Grand Central Station, a postal facility in midtown Manhattan.
There are also terminals that are known as stations. The other Grand Central, B&O's terminal in Chicago, was known as Grand Central Station even though it, too, was a terminal. The use of the term "Terminal" was relatively rare. There were even a few "Terminal Stations" out there (Atlanta springs to mind). New Orleans (NO Union Passenger Terminal) and Los Angeles (LAUPT) are current holders of the title even though LA is often referred to as "Union Station" Denver's Union Station used to have through operation, but doesn't now (except for Rapid Transit).
Hope all of this ambiguity helps.
A basic rule (and be careful to read the wording) is that a terminal is a station where a train ends (or begins) its trip. That particularly applies to "stub end" stations like Philadelphia Broad Street (or Reading Terminal) but may be semantically incorrect for intermediate station stops that require trains to back and fill to get in and out of stub facilities when making purely intermediate stops. Note that it is almost impossible to account for "Cleveland Union Terminal" with a definition requiring physical end of tracks there...
Pennsylvania Station is not a 'terminal' because tracks don't end there, and neither do most trains (even when they 'terminate' in New York and will be turned around for a return trip) -- for example, the Pullman limited trains went through to Sunnyside Yard to be serviced, and LIRR trains arriving from the east ran through to layup tracks between the station and the North River tunnel entrances.
Grand Central Terminal is properly so-called because every revenue movement ends, or terminates, there, even if the equipment subsequently transits the run-around loop track to get out again. If you have read books on the Twentieth Century Limited you will see how these trains were extracted from GCT and subsequently serviced (including turning many of the cars!) at Mott Haven, 'back the way they came'. This apparently doesn't change with the East Side Access project, which is more stub-end tracks in a hole in the ground.
People got to calling the place 'Grand Central Station' until it's familiar to many ears. As long as speaker and hearer agree on where the place is when planning to meet, I see comparatively little harm in this. On the other hand, it takes some of the fun out of the old joke about the blonde asking if this train stops at Grand Central Terminal...
Thanks for the information. It seems that it is all in the speakers terms.
Bill
I guess it sometimes a case of semantics. Thanks for the information and your insight.
rcdrye Grand Central is a "terminal" because it is at the end of the line - you can't go any further on rails. There is (or maybe was, since the Postal Service has closed lots of things) a Grand Central Station, a postal facility in midtown Manhattan. There are also terminals that are known as stations. The other Grand Central, B&O's terminal in Chicago, was known as Grand Central Station even though it, too, was a terminal. The use of the term "Terminal" was relatively rare. There were even a few "Terminal Stations" out there (Atlanta springs to mind). New Orleans (NO Union Passenger Terminal) and Los Angeles (LAUPT) are current holders of the title even though LA is often referred to as "Union Station" Denver's Union Station used to have through operation, but doesn't now (except for Rapid Transit). Hope all of this ambiguity helps.
And to further 'gum up the works', LAUPT (as 'we' refer to it) is actually a self-declared STATION! I had to confirm my New Englander senile citizen memory using Google, and found https://www.google.com/search?q=los+angeles+union+station+photos&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=iFbTByM5R7Q-3M%253A%252C0lVxNrx7aBR2DM%252C_&usg=AI4_-kTYq8hJjz_yG_t8alNu9oH3wqd9JA&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiVuI2LmtLeAhVOUK0KHYOaAoUQ9QEwCHoECAMQFA#imgdii=-q7_7OacnJJ-TM:&imgrc=iFbTByM5R7Q-3M:
Apparently, cs.trains.com doesn't function properly with the current version of Firefox when attempting create a URL link. So I just pasted it above.
And, for what it's worth, there was a GREAT 1950 movie of the same name: Union Station that has numerous interior and exterior shots of the station, including some employee only areas. There's even a chase scene in Chicago on the "L" and the underground (still operating in the movie!) freight tunnels that flooded all the basements in the Loop area 25 years ago.
I have a memory that LAUPT is now simply "LAUS." We do have some trains coming in and then continuing to a terminal (which is also a through station for one train each way every day.
Johnny
Noteworthy is Chicago Union Station, which is functionally two back-to-back stub terminals, with a shared concourse, and a single thru track. Apparently the thru track was used in the era of Amtrak's Milwaukee-St. Louis trains, but I understand is rarely used nowdays.
In the future LA UPT will become by semantics as a station when the southern entrance is built into the station. Then the thru station trains will not have to reverse directions. That is at present only the thru Amtrak Pacific Surfliners. But as well Surfliners that terminate at LA UPT can also use the southern connection to either enter or exit the terminal probably only those that need loco at other end.
Will allow terminating Amtrak LD trains to get to servicing facilities faster.
ORNHOOAre there any terminals that are called depots?
Oh dear, I find I can't resist...
Somewhat related, I remember learning the difference between a depot and a station about eight years ago:
http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/743/t/178354.aspx
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"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Indeed, LAUPT is now officially, "Los Angeles Union Station". And while Amtrak and Metrolink tracks are stub end, as mentioned, some Pacific Surfliner trains run "push-pull" with their terminals in San Diego, or points North.
It should be noted, however, that the Gold Line light rail DOES have through tracks at Union Station, and runs through trains every few minutes!
Paul of Covington Somewhat related, I remember learning the difference between a depot and a station about eight years ago: http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/743/t/178354.aspx
There is no essential difference; usage varies by region. Here's a great reference:
MidlandMikeApparently the thru track was used in the era of Amtrak's Milwaukee-St. Louis trains, but I understand is rarely used nowdays.
The Empire Builder and the Hiawatha equipment use the through track to get serviced in Amtrack's 18th St yard.
spsffanIndeed, LAUPT is now officially, "Los Angeles Union Station". And while Amtrak and Metrolink tracks are stub end, as mentioned, some Pacific Surfliner trains run "push-pull" with their terminals in San Diego, or points North. It should be noted, however, that the Gold Line light rail DOES have through tracks at Union Station, and runs through trains every few minutes!
And I believe there is a planawaiting funding to add "through" tracks by adding a SOUTH connection to the "STATION"
https://www.enr.com/blogs/12-california-views/post/43933-los-angeles-union-station-plans-possible-2-billion-expansion
Probably most of the blame for calling the New York Central's Grand Central Terminal "Grand Central Station" belongs to this classic old radio show...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpCYr4eOXys
I don't have any first-hand memories of the show myself, but I'm sure some of you gents, David Klepper especially, certainly do!
I'll tell you, that intro sure fires the imagination, even if there wouldn't have been any steam whistles south of Harmon.
A minor disappointment, they left out "...crossroads of a million private lives!"
Yes, Wayne, I remember the introduction to each drama--but I do not remember any of the dramas.
Once the Lexington Avenue subway station was called Grand Central Station. Is that still true or has it faded into the past ?
blue streak 1Once the Lexington Avenue subway station was called Grand Central Station
Called "42 St Grand Central". Never to my knowledge called anything other than the two words -- so it was the 'Grand Central' station, but not the three-word phrase as for the NYC complex.
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