Feather River Route is a M/W headache. ($$$ to deal with the mudmonsters in rainy season and slides.)
At least one ROPER (Denver-Grand Junction) train is out running every day with considerable soda ash movement at Parachute and Rifle. The ironies of the history of the line that UP tried to kill in the Gore Canyon War of 1905 and now owns are many. Now that the coal traffic has dwindled (mostly stayed in CO) the dynamics are considerably changed. The BNSF ROPER trains used to struggle to run between Amtrak and the mostly coal extras. Not true anymore. (crickets)
Also note, both UP and BNSF use both Donner and Feather River. Ia not Feather River a more economical route to operate? What about BNSF freight off the Kedie line going either way at the wye.
thanks, a good reply. Glad I rode it many times, twice CZ D&RGW, 17 RGZ, once Kleibolt including Tennesee and Royal Gorge, four times CZ Amtrak, including once with LV 353.
daveklepper What is the traffic level on the entire Moffat route at the present time? How often does a UP train run each way and a BNSF each way? Is coal continuing to come off the Craig branch? Wasn't that branh extended a few miles?
What is the traffic level on the entire Moffat route at the present time? How often does a UP train run each way and a BNSF each way? Is coal continuing to come off the Craig branch? Wasn't that branh extended a few miles?
The Craig branch, to my limited knowledge (corrections welcome!) is down to 3-4 active mines, a couple of which are not far from playing out or losing their customers to gas conversion.
Methinks BNSF will not consider giving up the rights, even if the route isn't currently profitable, just as UP will never (voluntarily) abandon or sell the old Tennessee Pass Line. Once surrendered, the franchise can never practically be regained - tracks can be rebuilt, but rights of way are one foot of "environmentally sensitve" land away from being lost forever. The rub will be maintenance - BNSF may not be able to control MOW expenses to match traffic needs, and UP undoubtedly sticks it to 'em. I'm sure that the BNSF rights agreement likely contains express language on maintenance standards - but this might be the most expensive railroad in the US to maintain.
Were it not for the threat of a BNSF purchase, UP would probably shut down the entire former DRGW west Grand Junction and as far Brendel, UT, a la Tennessee Pass, and leave Amtrak and Colorado/Utah with another "Raton Pass" decision. I could see turning the potash traffic at Moab over to the Utah Railway, which would let UP further cut back their operation from Brendel westward to wherever traffic sources UP itself has east of the Salt Lake City area that they didn't want to leave the URwy. The Denver-GJ/Craig section would make a great regional line for a couple of decades at least, particularly if Amtrak goes away or decides to pony up additional $$ to keep the Zephyr on the line. Item - UP is not going install PTC betwen Grand Juction and Utah Railway Jct, UT, quite possibly in partial light of the foregoing given that Amtrak has stated that they will not operate over non-PTC track after the current installation deadline.
There's no love lost between BNSF and UP - a number of sources have pointed out the tremendous savings the two could realize with directional running along the Columbia river in OR/WA - but UP is reportedly balking because it would benefit BNSF more than UP. :/
At least BNSF has the ability to avoid myopic investor pressures and play their hand for the long run - let UP downgrade the line to whatever standard BNSF can live with, let Amtrak pay for any incremental work needed for their operations, and see what eventually develops.
caldreamer (10-25):
It is unknown the specifics, but BNSF going via the southern Trancon might be a little longer, but way faster. Just look at Denver-Salt Lake City. Amtrak going via UP (on the Overland Route) is, as I recall, about four to five hours quicker than the D&RGW ‘through the Rockies’ route. Even Donner is slow going most of the way.
The BNSF southern route as far as our discussion is concerned passes Barstow, some 140 plus or minus miles from Los Angeles.
So, at first glance the central route appear more desirable for BNSF, but as stated previously, on trackage rights over the central route BNSF pays UP crews to operate its trains. IF (“if”) the central route was indeed more profitable of a route, the central route would be packed with BNSF trains with BNSF crews, but it simply isn’t. Now, the BNSF southern route is packed with trains to and from the Bay Area. BNSF simply knows what is the cheaper of the two routes to run its trains on.
‘Dreaming’ of all the money BNSF makes on the southern route,
K.P.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
They don’t go down to Los Angelos.
They go straight west from Barstow over Tehachapi pass to Bakersfield. Traffic from Chicago and the Midwest destined for Nothern CA goes over Tehachapi.
What manifest traffic there is between Denver-Northern CA probably actually does go due west on the DRGW and WP. Any intermodal would likely go southeast to Amarillo and get tacked on to Z trains on the Transcon.
Yes, but would'nt it be faster to go from Denver to Northern California via Salt Lake City over Donner Pass than bo down to Los Angeles and then up the San Juaquin Valley? It is a 500 mile shorter route.
caldreamer (10-23):
As I understand it, BNSF got trackage rights over the D&RGW from Denver to Salt Lake City, and west to California on the WP and SP as a condition of the UP-SP merger. It should be realized that BNSF has the speedier Southern Transcon, so has virtually NO incentive to use the route through Salt Lake City. Matter of fact, BNSF trains over the UP between said points are manned by UP crews under contract! It is a super frugal operation at best, and hardly the competitive situation envisioned by regulators that approved the UP-SP merger in the first place.
Back then KCS was interested in getting those trackage rights but BNSF and UP agreed to the terms first. Haverty and Company lost, and was reportedly furious, but couldn’t really do anything about it, which is probably just what UP wanted. KCS would have been a true competitor.
So, caldreamer, it is hoped the above sufficiently answers your inquiry.
Best,
Yes. BNSF trains operate from Denver to Provo (and vice versa) and from Provo to Stockton over UP. The UTAH Railway in the Salt Lake City, Provo, and Ogden areas does the gathering and distribution of cars for BNSF.
Mark Meyer
Apparently, the BNSF does opeerate trains between Denver and Salt Lake City--I saw one train with BNSF power between here and Denver when going east last month. The engines may have been run-through power, though.
Johnny
Falcon48 caldreamer Does BNSF have trackage rights into Salt Lake City, and if so from where? Thanks In Advance Yes. BNSF has trackage rights over UP from Denver to California via Salt Lake City. The rights were acquired in the UPSP merger
caldreamer Does BNSF have trackage rights into Salt Lake City, and if so from where? Thanks In Advance
Does BNSF have trackage rights into Salt Lake City, and if so from where?
Thanks In Advance
Yes. BNSF has trackage rights over UP from Denver to California via Salt Lake City. The rights were acquired in the UPSP merger
Which leads to the follow up question - do they use them?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
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