Snow / Ice / Cold Weather / Trains

[Anonymous]

Since many of us have cold weather now, and some have snow and ice too, it has caused me to wonder about the railroads and how the winter elements hinder locos, train crews, switches, mainline running, etc.

When a train encounters snow are there any special rules governing how to proceed? How deep would snow have to be to actually stop a train from moving? I know that during days of passenger equipment that water lines could freeze and even steam lines sometimes had problems. Locos once had to keep running in cold weather, do they still?

Does the weather limit the number of cars a train would normally have? Do railroads stop using their business cars during colder weather?

Now is a good time for a discussion of these questions and hopefully some will have more questions.

OK, LC, CSXeng98, Ed, Mark, Marty, Carl, Randy and all those my poor memory forgot to mention, jump in and educate us. Those who might have other question related to the weather and trains please feel free to add them here.

[Anonymous]

Many loco's out there are still not equipped with anti-freeze.

I'm pretty sure the stop/start systems won't shut the loco's down if the weather is at freezing, no matter how long they have been idling.

Good question about the snow --

I know on CP you aren't allowed to proceed on track that has water higher than 3 inches from the top of the rail, not sure about the snow though.

[CSXrules4eva]

Yes I wonder why that is. (Why don't locomotive prime movers use anti-frezze or coolant??) I was suprissed to learn this. Many diesels that I've worked with, used in power generation, oil, mining, off highway, and on highway diesel use coolant. I haven't worked with a diesel that didn't have engine coolant., with the exception of a few Cummins marine power.

Oh about the snow, I do wander what the limit is for a train to travel through snow. I know it would depend on what kinda train it is, were it is, what it's hauling, what the power is, and what is the condition of the track. But, I'm just looking for a ball park figure?/ :)

[CShaveRR]

We have our own set of problems in trying to hump in snowy weather. It doesn't take that much snow or ice on the top of the rail to slow a free-rolling car, and it's even worse when you have more wheel surface than just the tread in contact with the stuff.

Our switch points are electrically heated, but a stiff wind can still send snow into the points, where the cal-rods melt it and it then freezes, keeping the points from closing properly. It may be fine one moment, and no good the next time you throw a switch. And if that happens to you right in front of a car that's already out of your last retarder, you're S.O.L.!

[SID6FIVE]

Doesn't the EMD H-engine use antifreeze? How about the 7HDL ?

[csxengineer98]

ok..as far as how much snow you can go through..i have never heard any set depth that is unsafe to go through..but on the main lines... the traffic usely can do a good job of keeping the ROW clear of any major build up...the problem with snow lies in build up on the brake shose...this can be a very dangours and deadly situation if you dont take action to try and elemitate it.... when you get snow and ice packing on the brake shoes..you make a brake application..it takes even longer for it to set up becoues its melting snow and ice off the brakes befor you get a good set and the train starts to slow down.... to help pervent build up... crews are required to..when posable and when conditions will alow it..to make a brake set and leave it on so it can help eleminate the build up.... it is very importaint that you do this at somepoint befor you start down any steep grade.... long trains in cold weather will take for ever to pump up if the cars are not on ground air or hooked up to power that is suplying air to it... and it still comes up slow even if it is on some kind of air..... i too have sat for hours trying to get enough air to make a brake test so i can go.... as far as keeping train lenght down to smaller sizes..not around here....they just put out a bulliten that changes the minimum rear PSI for a brake test from 75# to i think like 60#s or something like that... now locomotives... they will freeze solid if they are not running in cold weather...if a unit shuts down..and your unable to restart it..you have to drain the water out of it..and its dead untill it can get to a shop to be refilled..... the APU units that some of you where talking about... the units that start up and shut off the prime mover...they are a fuel conservation tool only...they will shut the unit down after 30 mins..regardless of the outside temp..and will restart it when preset temp settings are reached for cooling water...and main battery voltage...they will leave it running unitll the water temp is back up to safe limits..and or the main battry is rechared enough......now back to the snow and ice..on the road as well as in the yards...it is a mother to deal with after it first comes down..and then is just a nusance after that... snow..and larg amounts of it..will make switches impossable to through..and you have to dig and sweep them out...this goes for main track dispatchor controlled electric ones also... and in yard service..the 'stomping grounds" where you walk to make cuts..get to the switches and what not... are hard to walk untill paths are warn into it to make it easier to walk... ice is just as much a pain with switches as snow is... but snow can be shoveld and swept out... ice on the other hand...better grab some fusses and start melting it... have to melt it out from the points... the through bar...the keepers..anything that might be frozeup.... this takes time..and if you dont keep useing the switch reguler in the course of your shift..it will freze up agin..and you have to repeat the whole prosses all over agin....and you always have to be on the lookout for snow drifts that will fall off the tops of cars as they are rocking by you when switching... you have to watch out for ice in the train lines.... so you have to blow out the air hoses befor each tie..to keep ice form blowing into the trainline and realy playing havic with the brakes..... on realy cold days... and moreso on long cars..like auto racks.. you get stuck brakes...brakes that apply..but dont want to releaces.... they are always good for getting you a hotbox detector and you have to walk the train. so they are a double wammy....humm...what else....oh yea..the cabs are cold..sometimes colder then the outside air itself...and the heaters suck...if your lucky to get one that makes anything in the way of heat at all.... once in a while you might find one that will make the cab warm enough to where you can take off your coat..but they are few and far between....ice and snow build up on the catwalks of the engins..making it a bit dangours to walk..better be grabbing onto the handrails and grab irons....the jumper cables get realy stiff and are even more difficult to plug into the resepitcals on another locomotive then they are in the summer months....air hoses between the cars become realy stiff..and you have to realy work to get them to make... hand brakes can freeze on..and you have to beat them off with a hammor...or (but dont let any bosses see you do this one..hehe) kick it off with your foot....heavey snow falling makes it hard to see the signals and ROW... its just like in your car at nite and its snowing..looks like something out of starwars...now try the same thing with a head light that can shine about a mile infrount of you......1 pluse about snow..durning the snow fall... as it lays...and the cloud cover keeps extra light around... so you can realy see...im sure some of you have experanced what im talking about in a mall or shoping center parking lot....
oh yea....the biggets thing about being on the railroad in cold weather....NO MATTER HOW COLD YOU ARE..YOU HAVE TO BE OUT IN IT.... THATS WHAT THEY PAY YOU THE BIG BUCKS FOR...dress warm..and try and get done...and plan your moves so your not out in it any longer then you have to be....
i think that should just about cover it...lol
csx engineer

[csxengineer98]

oh yea..i forgot that ice can and dose freeze switch locks...have to thaw them out with a fusse also...
csx engineer

[Randy Stahl]

So far everything that was said is correct. I recall waiting for a BN train in Minneapolis to pull for 24 hours. The trainmaster would not reduce the train of 126 cars, 2 crews spent thier entire shifts trying to get an air test. I have seen a new antifreeze formulated for locomotives, the only catch is the seals and gaskets on the prime mover need to be changed, the older material would break down quickly causing leaks into the crankcase. Good way to trash an engine .
Randy

[JoeKoh]

Mark pretty much covered it. a couple years ago a train was stuck outside the yard because the one in the yard had to pick up cars with frozen brakes.They had a looong wait.
stay safe
Joe

[tree68]

Seems like I've heard reference to problems with crossings - specifically the snow that the highway plows push onto the tracks, and especially if it freezes. I distinctly recall reading about engineers feeling the engine bounce sometimes when they hit that stuff.

I know I heard the exchange between the DS and a train crew not long ago about a switch heater that apparently was moving air, but no heat. Sounded like you could probably expect someone working on it r e a l soon.

[jeaton]

One Friday night on the Pioneer Limited in 1960, mid winter, sub-zero temperatures.

On Friday nights, the Milwaukee ran a through coach service from Chicago to Tomahawk via the New Lisbon junction to the Valley Line. On the end of a consist of many head end cars, maybe 3 or 4 each of sleepers and coaches, a lounge car, the Tomahawk sleeper, in the best of circumstances the train line might get about the same amount of steam to the last coach as would be generated by a tea pot on the back burner.

Twenty minutes out of Chicago, condensate in the last steam coupler has frozen solid and twenty minutes later the interior of the car is sub-freezing. 45 minutes to Milwaukee and the car knocker with an ample supply of fusees gets us ready to go. Repeat. Portage. Repeat.

Happiness is a burbling Alco on the point of the three car train ready to head north out of New Lisbon.

[jchnhtfd]

The 3 inch limit on water depth for diesels is to prevent water from getting to the traction motors; electricity and water make a very poor mix! Snow and traction motors usually isn't that much of a problem -- although some of the old timers might remember one winter storm in the 30's (I think) where GG-1's were dying all over the system because of a very fine powder snow which got through the filters into the motors, melted, and shorted them out -- a very bad scene indeed.

Most diesels in the northland have plow pilots, and can manage a foot or two of even snow without that much hassle. Road crossings can be a problem, although I can recall only one derailment because of an over-ambitious highway crew and a snowdrift (in Randolph, Vermont, in 1978 -- very minor). Drifts, on the other hand, can be a real headache. If they aren't too deep, and are about the same depth across the rails, an engine or plow may be able to bull through them after one or two tries if they aren't too deep. Drifts, however, tend to be very had packed, and take much more oomph than the same depth of just plain snow. Further, as someone said, you do want to be sure you don't get in and then can't back out; embarrasing at best. If they are uneven depths, however, on the two sides of the track, the uneven push on the plow can very easily derail the plow, and this you do not want (Randy may have a horror story or two about that!).

Frozen switch points are a true nightmare. Switch heaters help, up to a point, but as noted in really cold blowing snow they can actually make things worse (Buffalo, New York is a good place to find out about that). There have been quite a few rather amazing and Rube Goldberg contrivances built for melting switch points -- including rigs with jet engines directiing the hot exhast at the track. Some of them even work, sort of.

There is another problem with stopping a diesel in cold weather, rather than idling it, besides the freezing problem: if it is truly cold, the diesel may not fire (remember that it is compression that heats the air to get a diesel to go, not a sparkplug) even if you can get it to crank. Diesels in smaller applications (like trucks or smaller boats) rely on glow plugs or 'flamethrowers' (a handy device which actually burned some fuel in the induction manifold to heat the air, rather like sticking a blowtorch in the intake) to get going -- but years ago in my somewhat chequered career I was a lobster fisherman, and had a Cummins in my boat without either; the only recourse on a cold (like 0 Fahrenheit) morning was ether, which was spectacular but not awfully good for the engine. I don't know if railroad diesels have glow plugs, but I rather doubt it.

But in my humble opinion, the really major problem with cold and snow is the impact on the operating people, not the machinery. It is too easy to get too cold, and make mistakes, or fumble something...

[Anonymous]

I just came back from Eugene, Oregon on the Coast Starlight, and they got a huge dumping of snow in the cascades. We had snow from north of Oakridge all the way past Dunsmuir. I didn't really notice any problems with the trains though, they kept going just fine. But I bet it is a pain to watch for signals with it snowing as hard as it was. A few times when we would pass other trains, I saw the Engineers on the ground. Man they must have been cold. Seing all the snow was a beautiful sight though.
Brad

[Anonymous]

A pretty good discussion so far and informative, I believe we are learning some things. [^]

Anyone want to talk about the shotgun's role in ice removal? [:0]

[csxengineer98]

snow that is packed to ice in the flangways of road crossings can be very dangours too...it can and has detrailed trains at road crossings..infact...if a sander is left on on a locomotive..or one that is leaking sand... if it is alowed to pile up..gets wet..and then frezes..that also can derail a locomotive if thier isnt a flange way cut into it already....
csx engineer

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Randy Stahl

So far everything that was said is correct. I recall waiting for a BN train in Minneapolis to pull for 24 hours. The trainmaster would not reduce the train of 126 cars, 2 crews spent thier entire shifts trying to get an air test. I have seen a new antifreeze formulated for locomotives, the only catch is the seals and gaskets on the prime mover need to be changed, the older material would break down quickly causing leaks into the crankcase. Good way to trash an engine .
Randy

Did they eventually remove some cars are were the locomotives finally able to increase the pressure enough? Did anything happen to that trainmaster?

[Anonymous]

Diesel fuel will gel in very cold conditions. There is a additive to stop this. If it was not added to your fuel, your engine will slowly starve to death. If you realise whats going on in time and add the right fuel you may save the day.

[jeaton]

I remember a trainmaster telling me about pulling the fuel filters out of engines, taking them into a station office and putting them on top of a radiator in an effort to "thaw" the jelled fuel. All that was accomplished was a lot of smoke in the station. The engines still eventually died.

Talk of fighting winter weather reminds me why I decided to find work inside. Nothing like a work environment with constant year around 71.2 degrees and 27.8 % humidy.[:D]

Jay

[jeaton]

Adrian

There is a formula to convert C to F, but to keep it simple, water freezes at 0C and 32F, boils at 100C and 212F (sea level) and -25C is WAY cold. (No LOL, that is not funny.)

Hang in there.

Jay

[zardoz]

To change temperature given in Fahrenheit (F) to Celsius (C)
Start with (F); subtract 32; multiply by 5; divide by 9; the answer is (C)

To change temperature given in Celsius (C) to Fahrenheit (F)
Start with (C); multiply by 9; divide by 5; add on 32; the answer is (F)

[jeaton]

Jim

Is there a formula to change the temperature from colder to warmer?[:-^][:-^]

Jay

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton

Jim
Is there a formula to change the temperature from colder to warmer?[:-^][:-^]
Jay

Move south....

-40C = -40F = Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

[mudchicken]

yeah,yeah,yeah....and we keep forgetting the section hands and signal maintainers freezin' their butts off out there....Jay and Tree both live in the snow belt and apparently have no inclinations on moving! (We get something for UniHead's b'day down in Houston that is unique and he didn't like it!)

[mloik]

Here's a related question...

To what extent to railroads use snow fences to minimize the development of drifts on the tracks? I've been told that they are used by RRs, but I would be interested to know the exact locations.

Thanks,
Michael

[locomutt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken

yeah,yeah,yeah....and we keep forgetting the section hands and signal maintainers freezin' their butts off out there....Jay and Tree both live in the snow belt and apparently have no inclinations on moving! (We get something for UniHead's b'day down in Houston that is unique and he didn't like it!)

Ed didn't like the 'snow blower'[:0][?]

[daveklepper]

But the SP had (has?) plenty of snow sheds, wooden tunnels to keep snow away.

[jeaton]

I'd move tomorrow, but the wife and I haven't figured out a way to take our clients with us. South east side of Texas would work. I'd even bring my snow blower and show Ed how to use it.

As for section and signal guys, I'll bet give them a leaky cab and they would be more than happy to provide the duct tape.

Jay

[edblysard]

Guess what Jay..
It snowed Christmas eve...but today, it was 73degrees F.....from snow to sunburn in 5 days...no place but Texas!

Mudchicken offered to send his mountains this way, so we could learn to snow ski, instead of surfing...

Hey, I got a leaf blower...would that work on snow?[:p]

Ed

[locomutt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Guess what Jay..
It snowed Christmas eve...but today, it was 73degrees F.....from snow to sunburn in 5 days...no place but Texas!

Mudchicken offered to send his mountains this way, so we could learn to snow ski, instead of surfing...

Hey, I got a leaf blower...would that work on snow?[:p]

Ed

Only if it's powdery.[:D]

[tree68]

Nice part of winter is that it's pretty at first, and it eventually ends. Always something to look forward to. Of course, driving in zero visibility and handling fire hose in sub-zero wind is no fun, but those are the exceptions.

Snow
Snow, that blessed, cursed fruit of the sky:
Sometimes floating,
Often flailing,
Always frozen.

It covers the land with a mantle of alabaster,
Purity personified.

Lying on the landscape like grandmother's quilt,
Swept into hills and valleys by the whistling wind,
What marvel this myriad collection of flakes: individual
Indistinguishable, woven into a blanket of white
By a power greater than ours
To be rent by man:
The rumbling, clanking plows
The children of all ages
Who become, in its presence
Artists, architects, and engineers.