A question on passenger service levels on UP, NP, and GN in the late '60's

[Anonymous]

Rode the ATSF Calif Special DAL-LA in 1967, after TX Chief DAL-CHI in 1966. CS combined with a packed SFChief west of Clovis. Good loads, great service.

[Anonymous]

I rode the City of Portland on many occasions during the 1960's, as well as the pool trains between Portland & Seattle. The service on the City of Portland was pretty decent, as I remember, and I ate breakfast on one occasion in the dome dining car as we ran along the Columbia River Gorge. An experience I will likely never forget! The last time I rode the COP, was towards the end of private operation, the pending amtrak takeover had already long since been announced, but the UP was still operating the train, and I remember the equipment as being in just really ragged condition, but the service was still decent. I was always a coach rider, and on that last trip the railroad had pretty much removed all the restrictions on access, and I walked the entire train, with the exception of the sleeping cars, they were ahead of the dining cars as I remember and I could not get into them. But I was allowed access to the lounges, and I remember sitting in the lounge car at the rear of the train and watching the sunlight turn into twilight as we rolled across Idaho headed for Portland the next morning. The passing of the private trains was a very sad part of history for me, as I rode the Zephyr east from McCook, NE in 1973, and saw firsthand the awful service , and overcrowded trains
that ruined Amtrak's reputation early on. I have not travelled by train since, but my Dad travels quite a bit, and says the service is very good nowadays. But I think the early experiences with Amtrak for a lot of the traveling public, ruined any chances Amtrak might have had for being successful, but that is a whole 'nother thread! And incidently, the service on those pool trains between Portland & Seattle was never very good as I remember. But the trip only cost about 10 bucks one way. Try to do that nowadays!

[daveklepper]

I rode the San Francisco Chief on business from Joliet (more convenient for a Westmont resident than Dearborn Station) to Amerillo and return and thoroughly enjoyed the experience. The business appointments were in Lubbok and I rented a car in Amerillo. Everything about the trains were absolutely 100%.

[Anonymous]

I'd like to add a note on the CN's passenger service in the '60s. They sure knew how to re-do an interior. Their re-decorated car interiors were right out of James Bond, and right up to date for the times. It was done in good taste as well. They thought the whole thing out as well as their color scheme for cars and power. It showed that the management was interested in the product. They re-did the trainmen's uniforms as well and made them modern without loosing tradition, or becoming "burlesque."

I once rode the "Maple Leaf" from Toronto to Chicago in September of '69. What a ride. I used the CN's "Club Service" or parlor car. It was a converted parlor-buffet "Silver Lake." It was now a diner-club. The Porter in Charge collected my ticket and then invited the club section passengers into the dining section for breakfast. The meals were complimentary with club service. On the Grand TRunk the train, which was hauled by 2 passenger Geeps, had an RPO baggage car, the club-diner, and a few coaches, just flew from Port Huron into Chicago. We were doing about 100 mph in some districts.
I took advantage of one of the CN's bargain fares. They were good.

Mitch

[passengerfan]

It was really a surprise to most observers in 1954 when the Santa Fe introduced the San Francisco Chief between Chicago and Oakland. Their were already three major trains serving the end points California Zephyr, San Francisco Overland and City of San Francisco. The new San Francisco Chief operated via the southern mainline through the Texas and Oklahoma panhandles the only Chief to to so. Though not expected to be a stellar performer between end points it was the intermediate traffic and traffic originatting throughout Texas and even as far away as New Orleans in other trains that was the reason for the San Francisco Chief. By the time of Amtrak it had witnessed the demise of both the San Francisco Overland and California Zephyr If Santa Fe had not joined Amtrak it would have been one of the major trains retained. For a railroad to begin a major new service as late as 1954 and for it to be as highly successful as it was makes one respect the AT&SF even more. While the Chief was discontinued in 1968 the Super Chief/El Capitan and San Francisco Chief continued to show a return on passenger investment albeit not large enough to consider new equipment for the aging Super Chief or San Francisco Chief. This was probably the sole reason why the AT&SF reluctantly joined Amtrak.
Another railroad to invest in new equipment at a late date was the CB&Q who introduced new Denver Zephyrs in the fall of 1956. This train was always the premier train between Chicago and Denver since the beginning of the streamlined competition with UP. The competing Rocky Mountain Rocket and even City of Denver were never able to generate the traffic of the CB&Q between the Great Lakes and mile high Denver. It's my understanding that the CB&Q not only recovered the costs of the new trains in just a few short years but the route continued to show a profit right up to Amtrak.
Most of the overserved cities in the east left little room for a profit by any roads operating east of Chicago with the exception of the Northeast/Florida shedules and the Sou. Crescent. The NP purchased new Dining cars in 1958 the last of their kind before Amtrak. The Great Northern purchased complete new Empire Builders in 1947 and and again in 1951. And futher upgraded the Empire Builder in 1956 with domes.
In general the Western Railroads seemed to put a better foot forward at passenger service that the majority of eastern railroads. Exceptions were the ACL, SAL and SOU. All one has to do is look at the cars that were purchased by Amtrak from the roads and the trend is easy to see.
In Canada the CN was the major passenger carrier and CP was anxious to be rid of the passenger services they were still operating by the latter 1960's. The CN went on a major shopping spree for good used equipment from American roads having a surplus do to train offs etc. They purchased Super domes Sleeper Lounge Observations and Sleeping cars from the Milwaukee Road all formerly operated in the defunct Olympian Hiawatha and many other sleeping cars from eastern roads such as the NYC. Unfortunately for the CN it was all Pullman Standard built cars that today for the most part are scrapped. Sure CN was government run at the time and yes no actual cost figures have ever been released but the Red/White/ Blue fares certainly brought passengers back to the trains. Having rode many CN and CP trains during this period I still believe the CN idea had a lot of merit. They filled trains not only on peak travel days but the other days as well. At that time CN was operating two transcontinentals and CP one. The CP equipment on the outside certainly looked nice but the insides needed repainting and the carpets were fast wearing out. CN at the same time was remodeling and repainting the interiors of many cars at the same time CP was storing cars in Montreal. If Via had not come along I wonder how far the CN attempt to attract passengers back to the rails would have continued.

[daveklepper]

In genral, the western railroads and to some extent the Flordia service and the Southern kept standards quite high up to Amtrak. And the Broadway was a good exception even in the dark Penn Central days. And the Canadian railroads. But other than that, service did slip, sometimes very badly, sometimes as with the C&O and B&O, only slightly. Others have commented on the stale sandwiches and warm "cold" drinks served in PC snack cars on runs that used to have fine dining car service. Out west the SP was a bad exception on runs where automat cars replaced diners, but at least the food served in those cars was edible and the cold drinks cold.

The Santa Fe, again, was top drawer in every way right up to 1 May 1971. And the Denver Zephyr. And other trains too.

[Anonymous]

I had the privilege of riding the North Coast Limited in January 1971, 3 months prior to Amtrak. I still remember the exceptional dining car meal! Roast pork loin, one of those huge Idaho baked potatoes NP was famous for, a third of a head of lettuce, and Marshall Field Frango Mints for dessert! The dome cars were great! Was fascinated by the way the front of the train would round a corner and suddenly appear out the side of the dome, before the train gradually straightened out again. Think Amtrak made a mistake doing away with domes in favor of all bi-levels. Rode the slumbercoach, but was allowed use of the dome lounge in the trailing sleeper. Guess they didn't care by that time. Lewis and Clark was in the consist but not being used. Two dome coaches were up front. The Empire Builder consist was father up front. I walked the entire train between Oregon IL and the Twin Cities. The Builder also had two sleepers, an active diner and an unused/inactive full length dome lounge. There were also two GN dome coaches. When they split the train in St. Paul, I was on a car being separated from my slumbercoach. A brakeman assured me I would be reunited with my car, and I was!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Cris Helt

So when Amtrak took over, the passenger service, or what was left of it at that point, didn't go to pot overnight. The service levels on some trains, if not the timing, stayed reasonably good for a few years. Right?

Cris and friends,

The passenger train trip to the pot was slow and agonizing. As time went on and the highways devoured the day, and family travel, and the onset of the first jet aircraft scooped up the business travelers, train consists and services deminished.

Take NYC nos. 25 & 26, The Twentieth Century Limited as an example. One of the nation's finest trains. All-Pullman, with a full lounge that included a barber shop, a train telephone, a shower, and a secretary at your service. A twin unit diner whose decor, cuisine, and service was considered to be at the level of any great New York or Chicago restaurant. A complete compliment of rooms, and an observation lounge. That was the way it was when I was born, in 1950.
During an economic downturn, and dwindling business, #25 & 26 were combined with the Comodore Vanderbilt, and coaches were added. Then the Commodore name was dropped and The Century was now a coach and sleeper train, the extra fare was abolished, and so was the full lounge with its compliment of services. Around the same time the Jet airliner came along and the number of sleepers shrunk, as did the variety of rooms. The Century remained on its 16 hour schedule, but the equipment list kept shrinking. Sleepercoaches were added in '58 to give the budget minded a break in seeping accomodtions, but , in general, traffic dwindled. Service employee became disgruntled as the end was obvious as early as 1962. During the holidays the train ran in 2 sections, but as soon as January rolled around, the passengers rolled away. In december of '67, just before the Penn Central merger, The Century was gone. Replaced by a ho-hum train of no real pedigree in trms of service.
This was the case with many trains. Trains that had been 16 cars in the '50s were down to 4 cars in the late '60s. Where there had been diners and parlors, struggling railroads could only provide a diner lounge. There were railroads that did it right all the way up to Amtrak, and I think a lot of us are dissappointed with the here and now because of those roads. But when the highways, the jets, and the removal of mail contracts came, and by late 1967, we all knew it was the end.

Mitch

[passengerfan]

As long as Amtrak operated compatible equipment in good repair their were not to many problems initially .But when Cars from incompatible roads such as Santa Fe and SP were operated together their were air conditioning problems because SP crews were not familiar with the steam operated air conditioning of the AT&SF cars or likewise Santa Fe shops were not familiar with the SP air conditioning systems. There were other differences between different railroads pqassenger equipment and this led to Amtrak trying to get as much of their own equipment as possible as soon as possible. The so called Heritage fleet was comprised of the best Budd cars from Santa Fe, NP, GN, CB&Q, SP, UP and a few others. These cars were HEP equipped to operate with the Amfleet and later Superliner equipment. This solved many of Amtraks early problems but did not provide enough cars for peak travel times or for heavy shopping to keep the equipment in the best possible operating condition and still maintain adequate service levels. For instance one train I have ridden many times is the Sunset Limited and its tri-weekly schedule should have become daily years ago as i have yet to ride it when it wasn't full and required lengthy reservation times for sleeping accomodations. The Coast Starlight is without doubt one of Amtraks finest and even it suffers today from lack of sufficient equipment. I would hazard a guess that they could easily fill at least one and possibly two Superliner sleepers daily more than they are operating with now. Summers the same is true of the Empire Builder and Southwest Chief. I realize that the Heritage fleet was old but so is the Budd equipment operated by Via Rail Canada and that equipment was given major renovations when converted to HEP and their are no plans to replace it as this is written. Via bought new equipment from England that is meeting with mixed reviews now. Most people I have talked to still prefer the much older Budd equipment.

[Anonymous]

So when Amtrak took over, the passenger service, or what was left of it at that point, didn't go to pot overnight. The service levels on some trains, if not the timing, stayed reasonably good for a few years. Right?

[Anonymous]

Concerning vending machines et.al.

If memory serves me correctly it was the SP that installed "Automat" cars on the Sunset and later the Daylight. On the Q's Nebraska Zephyr, the articulated diner was converted to a sort of "Cafeteria" car. Over on the Milwaukee a diner or two for one of the Hiawathas was converted to a "Buffeteria" car. There was a waiter on duty to help you with your tray to a table.
Even into Amtrak in the early years the meals in the still-GN/BN operated diner were great. I remember meals on Amtrak's (GM&O) Prairie State and Abe Lincoln that were fabulous. They had fresh baked muffins that I couldn't stop eating. Meals on the refurbished (1973 episode) of The Broadway were right up there. The prime rib was tender and juicy. The twin diner was still in the consist and the service was prompt, even when the train's performance wasn't.
Mitch

[daveklepper]

In addition to riding the CZ and the RGZ, I did make a trip both ways on the California Service. The westbound from Chicago was combined with the KC Zephyr and one of the Omaha trains (Ark-sa-ben or Nebraska Zephyr, I forget which), and thus was switched both a Galesberg and at Omaha. It did not have a full diner, only a cafe-lounge car (which made Leonard Bernstein of the D&RGW most unhappy!) At Denver, it was switched again, and the equipment to Salt Lake City was similar to what was later run as the RGZ, with the addition of the one or two 6 and 10 sleeepers. At Saalt Lake City it was switched again, and only one or two coaches and one or two sleepers made it to Ogden, pulled by a leased SP FP-7 or F-7 with boiler, which made some people think it was an SP train, which it was not. Coming back I used the SP to Ogden, the California Service only as far as Denver, then stayed overnight with my sister, and rode the DZ's slumbercoach back to Aurora. The DZ was spiffy right up to the end. I had ridden the CZ shortly before the WP exited the passenger business, and although the CZ was getting a bit frayed looking on the inside, no downgrading of any services occured, and the meals and everything were as good as always, except time-keeping, the train was late enough into Chicago, that I was allowed to stay on past Aurora and sleep a third night a Chicago Union Station before catching a Burlington suburban back to my apartment in Wesmont. This again was in the last days of the CZ itself.

[jrbernier]

In the late 60's I worked on the 'Q', and the GN Empire Builder was the premier train. The only thing more important was the Winnepeg Limited arrival in St Paul(2 RPO's of mail). The Denver Zephyr was really the flagship on the 'Q', even watched closer by management that the CZ. By the time of the merger, the NP passenger service was down to the NCL, the Mainstreeter, and a Seattle-Portland 'pool' train. The NCL was a first class operation, but the Mainstreeter suffered in it's final years. The NP went very anti-passenger under the Menk leadership and a lot of train-off's happened. The GN had a pretty full complement of good trains, but also had a lot of mail contracts to support their passenger operation.
I only rode the CZ once, but I never remember 'vending' machines. The train ran with it's full set of equipment into the BN era, but was cut short by the WP termination of the western leg of the route. It was replaced by 'California Service' every 3rd day, and a cross platform/bus transfer to the SP 'City of San Francisco' at SLC/Ogden. Amtrk started up shortly and the original CZ was gone.

Jim Bernier

[Anonymous]

In equipment listings in timetables and The Official Guide you'll see certain cars that have the note "For Sleeping Car Passengers or Pullman passengers Only." This indicates the restrictions. The budget diners, i.e. "Ranch Car," or "Lewis and Clark Travellers Rest" cars were provided for economy minded guests. On trips I've had breakfast or lunch in the one and dinner in the other.
Some railroads on their coupon strip tickets for first class referred to this as "Unrestricted Class." There also was a formula to compute "Mixed Class" fares. This was done to provide a passenger with a fare where by day they would travel in coach, and then for the evening portion of the trip they could move to Pullman accomodations.
Mitch

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the reply passengerfan. I sort of figured that there were different places that were accessible for both coach and sleeping car passengers, and your reply confirmed it. So the best way to travel long distance by train was (and probably still is) by sleeping car, provided your budget allowed for it.

[passengerfan]

In its final years of service the Empire Builder as operated by the GN permitted sleeping car passengers the run of the train but coach passengers were not permitted past the dining car. The Ranch car after losing its bar space was almost exclusively the domain of the coach passengers. The GN did permit coach passengers to use the lower level bar in the great dome lounge car after the Ranch car lost the bar. But coach passengers were never permitted in the upper level of the great dome lounge car this was always reserved for the sleeping car passengers. The NP allowed coach passengers access to the dining car for meals but did not permit them to go aft of the dining car. The Lewis and Clark travellers rest served meals and drinks to coach passengers but sleeping car passengers were also permitted use of this car. Since slumbercoach passengers were coach passengers they were restricted to the same cars as the other coach passengers of the North Coast Limited. The lounge in the last last dome sleeping car of the North Coast Limited was always the exclusive domain of the sleeping car passengers. Before the Lounge in the Sky came to be the NCL operated with a sleeper lounge observation that was for the exclusive use of sleeping car passengers. The UP permitted coach passengers use of the dining cars including the dome diners but did not encourage it. The dome lounge cars operated in the City of Portland, City of Los Angeles and City of St. Louis were for the exclusive use of sleeping car passengers only. The CN Super Continental was interesting in they carried a Super Dome between Edmonton and Vancouver and permitted coach and sleeping car passengers to use the dome level but the bar under the dome was reserved for sleeping car passengers only. Tyhese trains carried a separte lounge area for coach passengers. Hope this answers some of your questions.

[Anonymous]

On the GN and NP passenger trains with diners and either a ranch car or Traveler's Rest car, was one car for sleeping car patrons and the other for coach patrons, or was it possible for coach passengers to have dinner in the diner? I gather that differences between the dining car and the ranch car were the items offered on the menus between the two cars, and the price of said items. Also, didn't passengers traveling in the sleeping cars (first class?) pretty much have the run of the train, while coach travelers were allowed access to some places but not others?
Thanks for all the answers so far! [:)]

[daveklepper]

The City of Everywhere didn't only switch at Ogden. At Omaha or Council Bluffs the Chicago - Denver equipment was switched, and at Cheyenne the St. Louis - Wabash RR - Kansas City - Oakland equipment was switched (usually two coaches and a sleeper). I'll give the UP credit for often using two diners on the train to handle the load between Chicago and Ogden.

[Anonymous]

In other threads we've discussed how great the Sant Fe passenger service was in the '60s. And it was. I can testify to that. I have to state that the Q's service was right up there with the Santa Fe. I rode both and was equally impressed. I recall vividly the 2 sections of CB&Q 1 (The Denver Zypher) that was run during the summer madness to the west. All the equipment matched. It never looked as if they pulled it out of storage. You could count on all the trucks being freshly silvered as well when they became grimy.
I learned how to prepare railroad French Toast from a Burlington chef.
When I became a brakeman on the C&M Division on the Milwaukee, the early Amtrak versions of the Hi and Builder were still nice. We still had porters that had come from the PULLMAN Company. It was a pleasure to be the "ragmaster" (flagman) on Amtrak no 9 out of Chicago and have the Silver Chateau or Silver Veranda, former Denver Zypher observation parlor lounge cars on the hind end.
Mitch

[passengerfan]

GN secondary transcontinental named Western Star by late 1960's was combined with fast mail and resembled a freight train with no more than four or five passenger carrying cars that were in the middle of the consist instead of at the end where they should have been. Looked strange to see one of the beautiful Mountain series observations with mail cars coupled to rear.

[daveklepper]

A bit about the paint of the equipment. The Burlington owned coaches and sleepers painted in the NP and GN colors, so did the SP&S. So after combination, the Q's morning Zephyr was a multi-colored train. But the NP and Q slumbercoaches were always stainless steel and operated in pool to maximize usefulness. So one could see an NP slumbercoach on the Denver Zephyr, keeping that train all-stainless, or on the overnight Blackhawk. The Blackhawk was also the connection for the Mainstreeter and the GM second train (forget its name, someone remind me please), and I once was amused riding overnight in an NP slumbercoach to Minneapolis and learning it would return to Chicago while the 10-6 Burlington sleeper (in NP colors) and and an NPcoach would go on to Seattle. After the Mainstreeter was discontinued, or perhaps just stopped through cars to Chicago, the Blackhawk continued only with coaches and the slumbercoach, the first class sleeper was dropped. About the same time the overnight Pioneer was dropped by the Milwaukee Road. The North Coast Limited thus usually had one stainless steel Budd slumbercoach and it could be either an NP or CB&Q car.

The SP and the Milwaukee had equipment painted in UP colors, and only rarely did stainless or grey SP equipment run east of Ogden. It did happen sometimes. But west of Ogden usually one could see UP Armour yellow, and both SP grey and SP stainless on the train.

[passengerfan]

The GN maintained first class trains as did the NP right up to Amtrak. One year before Amtrak the BN merger took place. But the GN, NP and CB&Q equipment was operated as before the merger without mixing equipment. The Empire Builder still provided the most dome seats and the combined Empire Builder North Coast Limited Morning Zephyr operated on many summer days with as many as ten or eleven domes between St. Paul and Chicago. First class Dining cars and ranch cars were operated in the Empire Builder and NCL operated with first class domes Dining cars and the Lewis & Clark travelers rest. The UP City of Portland was a shorter train than the other two and in the final year the Dome diners were sidelined and regular dining cars operated. The CofP operated eight or nine cars west of Green River the summer before Amtrak.

[mudchicken]

Chris:
The DRGW could almost match ATSF in the days before Amtrak. DRGW elected to continue their trains after Amtrak. ATSF/ Cena almost did, but the auditors overuled the pride side of the equation. The loss of the mail contract (still questionable in some corridors if the truckers could ever deliver better , faster service) and the subsidized airline boom finally did the private trains in)...The cloud of PC and the other failing roads at the time did not help the situation. The balance sheet seems to trump intrinsic worth every time and the balance sheet is blind to linkages of different public services.

[Anonymous]

Judging from what I've read, both online and in books, Santa Fe's service was in a class all its own -right? Regarding UP's one train does it all "City of Everywhere," that's pretty amazing how UP could start out with one supersized passenger train, run it to a particular point (Ogden?), and then divide it up into smaller trains to continue on to separate destinations. Must have been a pain having to make two stops at the same station with such a train.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

The Winnipeg-Twin Cities train was the "Winnipeg Ltd". It was later cut back from the Twin Cities to Grand Forks (I think) where it connected with the "Western Star" in each direction.

[daveklepper]

Excuse the interruption. Continuing with my UP passenger experiences. The UP coaches and Pullmans and diners did not quite have the sparkle of the AT&SF's trains, but the service was pretty good and the food excellent. Then two things happened. They got dome diners for the City of LA, and shortly afterward the City of SF was combined with it to Ogden, and eating in a dome diner was a terrific experience. (An SP diner was used Ogden - Oakland.) The next event was a special train as reported in TRAINS for European investors to tour the UP, and for them the UP completely refurbished about 20 cars, mostly Pullmans (6 & 10s) and diners and lounge cars. The cars were then better than new, with teak or walnut replacing paint on metal partitions, etc, really a beautiful job, making this UP equipment the equal of the AT&SF. And then they continued with most of the rest of fleet bringing it up to the same standard. The main reason the UP's train was not equal to those of the AT&SF, is that before Amtrak they were essentially running one train, which we called "The City of Everywhere". The City of Portland, the City of Denver, the City of Los Angeles, and the City of San Francisco were essentaily one train! And a long one. And the time required for station stops and splitting and assembling the train meant that time-wise, it could not compete with the Super Chief or the El Capitan (combined during the off season) Chicago - LA, nor with the Denver Zephyr Chicago - Denver. The Chicago Portland service was still fairly close to the time of the Empire Buuilder and the North Coast Limited, with their SP&S connection, maybe even faster.

I rode the last eastbound City of LA, and the service was still excellent, but we did not have a dome diner. We did have 844 in front of the E units Rawlins - Cheyenne! Great watching it from the front dome.

I was in error when I menationed I had not ridden a GN train. I did once. I once used the overnight Winnipeg - Twin Cities through CN-GN train. (Someone can remind meof its name.) One sleeper, a CN 6 and 10, a diner lounge, and some coaches and head end cars. Nothing really special, except- I was having dinner in the diner lounge, with my TRAINS magazine at the side of my dinner, since darkness had arrived and scenery was hard to see, when Phil Hastings entered the car, spied the TRAINS, and sat down across the table. We had a good talk, and yes there was one of his photos in the magazine! He also said he had an engine pass from Grand Forks to Crookston, and was sure I could join him. I did. I had ridden plenty of different types of diesels on the B&M, and even ran a freight with a GP-7, but this was the one and only time I rode an E-8. From St. Paul to Chicago (actually Glenside) I rode the morning Hiawatha to Milwaukee and the afternoon Milwaukee to Glenside, because I supervised the audio for Golda Meier's sold-out talk at the Milwaukee Performing Arts Center (Uihline Hall, pronounced "Eeeline"). A beavertale observation was on the Morning Hiawatha sold as parlor car seating.

[CBQ_Guy]

I recall reading that at some point in that final time of passenger service, the Burlington's California Zephyr (IIRC) replaced their fine dining with vending machines!

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the replies so far. [:I] Since I was born in 1968, and missed out on pre-Amtrak passenger trains, I can only wonder, what it was like to personally ride on one of UP's City trains, or the North Coast Limited, or Empire Builder, let alone the Super Chief! [;)] Thanks again for sharing the memories. Where's that time machine when you need it?? [:D]

[daveklepper]

I rode the NP Mainstreeter and found the service excellent, the "ranch car" food good, and the equipment clean but looking a bit worn. Only experience with the GN was with their equipment on combined trains on the Burlington between the Twin Cities and Chicago, and their equipment did not look as worn as NP's. I think I also rode the North Coast Limited, and if I remember the only real difference between this premier train and the Mainstreeter was that the North Coast Limited ran with a full lounge car and a full diner, and the Mainstreeter only with the "ranch" car which served both functions. If my memory is correct.

In addition to using the Sante Fe during this period, which always gave top grade service and clean well maintained equipment and sharp operations, I also rode the UP,