I don't have a B&O ETT that shows the Patterson Creek Cutoff, but looking at the SPV map, it was a littlle less than six miles long, so the cutoff saved about 25 miles as well as the grades.
In 1953, both the National Limited and the Diplomat bypassed Cumberland.
Johnny
timzYour timetable says 16.8 miles Patterson Creek to McKenzie via Cumberland? And maybe 6.9 miles via the cutoff?
Not quite - Patterson Creek is MP BA 168.9. McKenzie is at BA 200.6. Viaduct Jct where the lines to Sand Patch and Grafton split is BF 178.4 (in reality BA 178.4 once you head to Grafton).
At the time of The Cincinnatian, Keyser was the main coal marashalling yard. Coal trains operated East from Keyser over the cutoff to Brunswick and Baltimore. Empties operated from Brunswick to Keyser where they got switched for delivery to the mines - remember these were the days before the Unit Train had even been thought of.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Your timetable says 16.8 miles Patterson Creek to McKenzie via Cumberland? And maybe 6.9 miles via the cutoff?
timz BaltACD through Cumberland would have added approximately 30 miles Looks like the cutoff is about 10 miles shorter than via Cumberland.
BaltACD through Cumberland would have added approximately 30 miles
Looks like the cutoff is about 10 miles shorter than via Cumberland.
Sorry - I was going on timetable listed mileages - not looks like.
Nothing really changed .... The feds started to flex their authorative muscle during the run up to establishment of the quiet zones in the late 1990's. When the feds and the local PUC/RR Commissions/PSC started the public hearing process, local government had their "come to jesus" moment. (One of the few good things to come out of the QZ rulemaking process IMHO ....There are still quite a few perceived warts - A big one falsely claimed is that a Quiet Zone is forever and cannot be revoked. That has appeared here in Denver with the RTD "A" and "G" Line screwups. QZ's can be revoked and have been, usually for the reason that local government did not mitigate the series of crossings like they agreed to and two because of repeated safety issues/fatalities)....
Simply Put: Cities/Counties/Towns do not have jurisdiction. They are subject to the state level administrative law process now handled by the MDOT Rail section.
BaltACDthrough Cumberland would have added approximately 30 miles
mudchickenFederal Law (Statute) - you are interfering with Interstatate Commerce.
Redwood City CA said 45 mph for SP trains in its city limits -- that probably lasted until 2003? Now trains are allowed 79 all the way thru. Did some federal law change?
DeggestyBalt, was it planned in the beginning to bypass Cumberland?
Yes - a trip into and through Cumberland would have added about an hour to the trip. The cutoff between Patterson Creek and McKenzie is about 6.5 miles in length, the trip through Cumberland would have added approximately 30 miles and 45 minutes to an hour to the running time.
I am not sure of where the operating crew changes were for the run. I believe that Grafton was the only crew change, I may be mistaken. I believe the locomotive took on water at Martinsburg on the run to Grafton and at Athens, OH on the run from Grafton to Cincinnati.
Balt, was it planned in the beginning to bypass Cumberland?
Deggesty tree68 Electroliner 1935 Oh Larry. You don't know how much I would love to hear that sound again. Lucky guess - looked up B&O name trains and that one ran from Detroit to Cincinnati - very possibly through Deshler. It did run through Deshler.
tree68 Electroliner 1935 Oh Larry. You don't know how much I would love to hear that sound again. Lucky guess - looked up B&O name trains and that one ran from Detroit to Cincinnati - very possibly through Deshler.
Electroliner 1935 Oh Larry. You don't know how much I would love to hear that sound again.
Lucky guess - looked up B&O name trains and that one ran from Detroit to Cincinnati - very possibly through Deshler.
It did run through Deshler.
The Cincinnatian began with the Baltimore - Cincinnati routing in January 1948. In June of 1950 because of a lack of patronage (there are no 'big' cities between Washington and Cincinnati). The train was moved to the Detroit - Cincinnati route.
Had the Baltimore-Cincinnati route proved wildly successful, the B&O would not have been able to add cars to the train. Five cars was the maximum the P-7d locomotives could handle over the grades between McKenzie and Grafton. To make the required schedule, the train had to bypass Cumberland. Cumberland passengers had to get transportation to/from Keyser, WV to utilize the train.
The Detroit-Cincinnati route had nowhere near the grades as the Baltimore-Cincinnati route and the P-7d's could handle several more cars.
Electroliner 1935Oh Larry. You don't know how much I would love to hear that sound again.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68their horns are just about constant - it sounds like the Cincinattian is blowing through town...
tree68it sounds like the Cincinattian is blowing through town...
Oh Larry. You don't know how much I would love to hear that sound again. Grew up about three miles from the B&O line through Gelendale Ohio and would hear that streamlined Pacific blowing for the crossings in Springdale and Glendale. Sound traveled nicely in the evening but was distant. Watched it many a day at Winton Place, and when I could, I could watch it make its backup move across Spring Grove Ave. That was about 65 years ago. A real neat operation. NA tower controled the operation where the NYC and the B&O joined plus the signal and switch to the connecting track to the former CH&D B&O line to Toledo. Other end was a non interlocked jct. where a switchman operated hand throw switches. The trains hardly paused, reversing almost as quickly as they stopped. All gone now. Winton Place Station was relocated to Sharon Woods park and the Toledo division has a new double track viaduct over Spring Grove Ave. The Cardinal goes over it but its running time between Hamilton and Cincinnati is longer than the Cincinnatian's was.
Federal Law (Statute) - you are interfering with Interstatate Commerce.
And, by memorandum of agreement, there is also a state agency (some variation of a railroad commission / Public Utilities Commission) acting as an ombudsman neutral third party overseeing all public crossings in that particular state. Prevents rampant abuse by political agencies.
In Michigan:
Michigan Railroad Commission 1873-1919
Michigan Public Service Commission 1919 - 1969
Michigan Department of Transportation/ Rail Section 1969 - present
Section 462 of the Michigan Statutes is what applies to railroads in the state
(*) Putting the ombudsman in the Michigan DOT management tree creates a conflict of interest, especially in qualifications (IMHO - Transportation people are "bus people" without ANY railroad training or education. Being that state agencies promote from within, it becomes very hard to find anyone with a functional railroad understanding)
A federal court order will stop the local good-ol-boys from taking the law in their own hands.
JustWonderin'are there really laws requiring trains to slow down for crossings?
JustWonderin'From this particlular crossing, there are others about 1 1/2, 2, 2 1/2, 3 and 3 1/2 miles to the north and 1, 2, 2 1/2, and 4 miles to the south...
I hadn't looked at the actual map - but there are indeed a lot of crossings in the area, which could lead one to say that they start blowing a mile away and blow excessively.
As an aside - I watch the Deshler YouTube live cam a fair amount. East- and westbound trains have a certain pattern to their horns, and trains using the transfers are usually easy to pick out as well.
Southbound trains have about five crossings just a block or two apart each. If they are running at track speed (about 35), their horns are just about constant - it sounds like the Cincinattian is blowing through town...
tree68 If that was in Wyandotte on July 20, the report from WWJ indicates social media was reporting the driver ran the gates... One of the commenters on the ClickOn Detroit website said that the trains blow their horns for a mile, excessively. Nothing about it being the law in that comment. Another commenter then said it was the law. The first is probably guilty of the same principal as the "ubiquitous 20 minutes" (it took the ambulance "20 minutes to get there, even though it was only five...) - it just seems like a mile. The second just plain has no clue... However, several commenters mentioned that people regularly blow through the crossing even as the gates are coming down...
If that was in Wyandotte on July 20, the report from WWJ indicates social media was reporting the driver ran the gates...
One of the commenters on the ClickOn Detroit website said that the trains blow their horns for a mile, excessively. Nothing about it being the law in that comment.
Another commenter then said it was the law.
The first is probably guilty of the same principal as the "ubiquitous 20 minutes" (it took the ambulance "20 minutes to get there, even though it was only five...) - it just seems like a mile. The second just plain has no clue...
However, several commenters mentioned that people regularly blow through the crossing even as the gates are coming down...
That's the one.
It's a noisy area due to a lot of crossings. From this particlular crossing, there are others about 1 1/2, 2, 2 1/2, 3 and 3 1/2 miles to the north and 1, 2, 2 1/2, and 4 miles to the south that I can think of just off the top of my head. Four tracks, all nice and open and straight. If you get more than one train in the area you will certainly hear quite a bit of horn blowing. I'm sure to those who live close by it seems incessant.
And, yes, running the gates is quite the local sport.
Thanks, everybody, for confirming that the slow-down law is fiction. I was tempted to post a "correction", but wasn't certain. We don't need more made-up stuff in the news.
Of course, by the time the engineer saw the vehicle in the crossing it was too late to do anything except try to stop. The engineer may have kept the horn blowing, which sounded excessive to the person who complained.
I can understand a person's not being aware that the yellow band by the track at a passenger station is a No Trespassing sign, but for anyone to trespass on a track after the gates are down is the act of a totally non-thinking person.
Several years ago, while waiting for #6 in Sacramento, I noticed a man standing on the yellow band some distance away from me. As the engine came into view, the engineer began blowing the warning signal--which was not understaood by the man, and I was too far from him to reach him and tell him to get back. As it was, he was not hit.
From the OP, it sounds like it was a comment to an online news story and not someone at the news organization. But, they are 0-2.
I would have you inquire of the station's management as to what form of recreational pharacuticals their commenter has been overdosing on. He is much worse that 0 for 2 on the facts.
A few days ago a train hit a truck near me. Fortunately, no injuries were reported. In the discussion on the news station's web site someone said "The trains are required to sound their horn excessively a mile in advance plus they are required by law in Michigan to slow down a mile before reaching a crossing.". That stuck me as odd. I know that the horn thing is not quite correct, but are there really laws requiring trains to slow down for crossings? Michigan or anywhere? My guess is that this commenter is zero for two in the facts department.
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