Doon derailment cause

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Doon derailment cause
Posted by Cotton Belt MP104 on Wednesday, July 11, 2018 4:03 PM

 

Much, much, much and very much more has been said about floodwaters as the cause of Doon/BNSF derailment. Did I miss something? Is it possible the cause could be hotbox or broken rail?  Has this possibility been ruled out?

 

A crew I carried were relieved after an axle melted, causing HOS issues that took them out of service.  They passed a hotbox detector with no fault reported. In the darkness they SAW the problem and rather than dump air (headend was in the middle of a small city) and they didn’t want a pile up.  Slowly they got the train stopped and got chewed out for so much damage to ties.  They had no derailment as he did not allow slack.  Darned if you do, darned if you don’t. NEXT detector was just ahead and almost got taken out by bad order car.

 

I ask the question and gave the example, in that it shows how quickly a hotbox can occur, even when detector gave all clear     mike endmrw0709181726sa

 

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Posted by tree68 on Wednesday, July 11, 2018 4:22 PM

Cotton Belt MP104
Has this possibility been ruled out?

It's been mentioned by several people.  Or at least the possibility of some sort of mechanical failure.  There was a derailment (also involving a key train which struck a derailed car) a few years ago caused by a broken axle, as I recall.

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Posted by BaltACD on Wednesday, July 11, 2018 4:34 PM

Cotton Belt MP104
Much, much, much and very much more has been said about floodwaters as the cause of Doon/BNSF derailment. Did I miss something? Is it possible the cause could be hotbox or broken rail?  Has this possibility been ruled out? 

A crew I carried were relieved after an axle melted, causing HOS issues that took them out of service.  They passed a hotbox detector with no fault reported. In the darkness they SAW the problem and rather than dump air (headend was in the middle of a small city) and they didn’t want a pile up.  Slowly they got the train stopped and got chewed out for so much damage to ties.  They had no derailment as he did not allow slack.  Darned if you do, darned if you don’t. NEXT detector was just ahead and almost got taken out by bad order car. 

I ask the question and gave the example, in that it shows how quickly a hotbox can occur, even when detector gave all clear     mike endmrw0709181726sa

One thing that assists in causing a derailment when a hot journal is detected is using the air brakes to stop the train.  Freight car brakes apply the shoe at a single point as the circumference of the wheel passes it.  When the axle is hot the brake shoe pressure pressure can move the wheel out of line of the near molten axle - thus ending up with a 'wrung journal'.

         

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Posted by Cotton Belt MP104 on Wednesday, July 11, 2018 5:28 PM

BaltACD
 
  When the axle is hot the brake shoe pressure pressure can move the wheel out of line of the near molten axle - thus ending up with a 'wrung journal'.
 

 

balt: "wrung journal" .......... interesting term

.

.......... best I recall (the incident mentioned in my post) the end of the wheel set (journal/bearing area)...............  was missing ................as in GONE ............awesome sight to behold  

 

........... ...... tree:   reference the UPS/UP on ground in AZ............similar sight of some derailment recently (within last couple of months)and mentioned on this discussion board...........since you inquired of the most recent derail................do you recall the one in the northern midwest recently and the cause of it ?............I might be mistaken but it seems the one I am inquiring about was a.......... "rail runner".........OTR van w/wheel set attached..........big mess and I am too lazy to go look back over past threads to see if there is a follow-up

 

...........hopefully it will have a thread name that sounds familiar ......... the naming of this thread I started should get heads a turning ..........mike endmrw0711181723sa    for those keeping count...........this post was typed with 4 paragraphs double spaced

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Posted by jeffhergert on Wednesday, July 11, 2018 6:59 PM

Many years ago, when I was a conductor, our train got hit by a hot box detector.  We were about the third or fourth train to get hit.  Since the detector hadn't been taken out of service we still had to inspect.  The engineer had brought the train to a stop, I got off, and he pulled the indicated car up to me.  (That was, and still is allowed when operating on wood ties.)  The indicated axle was OK, so I started back to inspect the 20 axles behind first.  Two cars back I bent over to apply the tempstik to the bearing.  I didn't need to check the temperature of the bearing, it was gone.  When the train started moving, it had seized up and had twisted off.  The truck side frame had been dragging over recently installed wood ties for about half a mile.  (Later inspection said they were OK.)  They sent a wheel truck out and replaced the wheelset.  I saw most of this operation until the relief crew showed up, as we were about dead on our HOS.

I never heard anymore about the incident.  The bearing was left laying in the weeds for about 10+ years.  I always looked for it when I went that way.

Jeff  

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Posted by Cotton Belt MP104 on Wednesday, July 11, 2018 7:41 PM

jeffhergert

 ........................, it had seized up and had twisted off.  The truck side frame..........................mrw:    is this part called, bolster?  in wheel truck parts description .................. had been dragging over recently installed wood ties for about half a mile.  (Later inspection said they were OK.)  They sent a wheel truck out and replaced the wheelset.  I saw most of this operation until the relief crew showed up, as we were about dead on our HOS.

mrw:  been there, seen that (no tee-shirt though) as I was taking out, the on duty crew

I never heard anymore about the incident.  The bearing was left laying in the weeds for about 10+ years.  I always looked for it when I went that way.

Jeff  

mrw: lotsa stuff out there in the weeds, some placed ........only known by a few people who might need stuff   

Bolster story:   Ed, SSW 8389, and myself have done field research on the abandoned Cotton Belt, Birds Point branch line.

He and I have a farmer friend who we check with often.  The branch ran almost at his back door, for sure it is the boundry of his back yard.

Last trip up there he asked us to look at something.  Keep in mind that this is the I-57 area crosssing the Mississippi.  But a state highway crosses from Cairo to the interstate and has commercial traffic (maybe a short cut?)

He found 4  that is .......four bolsters on the side of the highway by his mailbox.  He knew they were RR stuff and got someone to ask UP at Dexter.  Nobody knows anything.  Before he got them drug to his front yard, someone had gotten one of them.

You know how heavy they are.  I don't think some guy and his girlfriend picked the one up and threw it in the back of their Bettle Bug   ........ooops Balt will catch me on that one  ........they threw it in the FRONT trunk .........

Got pictures of the three along with broken fiber straps that were supposed to secure the load.  I called ARI, local shop for hopper car manufacturing.  No lost loads and in fact he said they seemed to be refurbished.  Except for skid marks, they seemed new.  He said theirs were delivered painted black.

Nearby is a Trinity tank car plant and have not checked with them.

How in the world could that load drop and the driver not hear or notice something.

mike endmrw0711181938sa

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Posted by Euclid on Thursday, July 12, 2018 12:34 PM

I called a local news outlet in Doon about 4 days ago and asked if they knew the cause of the derailment.  They said they did not because no official cause has been announced by BNSF or any other authorities.  They did say that they have been told by the people doing the investigation that the cause will be made public as soon as they find it, but so far, they have not found the cause.  It is not much information, except for the stated intention of publically announcing the cause as soon as it is found.  

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, July 12, 2018 12:56 PM

Euclid
I called a local news outlet in Doon about 4 days ago



Laugh Maybe 4 decades ago!

 

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, July 17, 2018 7:31 AM

     The line didn't stay closed too long. On Saturday the 14th I caught two trains, one coming off the line the other going onto the line at Garretson, S.D. The northbound was all tankers.

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Posted by Dakguy201 on Tuesday, July 17, 2018 10:58 AM

Euclid

I called a local news outlet in Doon about 4 days ago and asked if they knew the cause of the derailment.  They said they did not because no official cause has been announced by BNSF or any other authorities.  They did say that they have been told by the people doing the investigation that the cause will be made public as soon as they find it, but so far, they have not found the cause.  It is not much information, except for the stated intention of publically announcing the cause as soon as it is found.  

 

 

Doon is a town of less than 1000 people.  The "local news outlet" is likely the clerk at the Casey's convenience store repeating what the customers purchasing coffee have said.
 
Unless forced to do so by a lawsuit, I have doubts that BNSF will ever release any detailed analysis of what occured.  Many of the small towns in the area reported 5 to 8 inches of rain the night of the derailment.  I suspect any analysis of the wreck will involve inadequate response to conditions somewhere within BNSF. 
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Posted by tree68 on Tuesday, July 17, 2018 11:23 AM

Dakguy201
The "local news outlet" is likely the clerk...

When I searched for "Doon newspaper" I got an area radio station's website and someone's FB page, which looked like what it probably is - someone thinking they're a news source.  The images didn't look like those you'd see on a reputable news site.

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Posted by Euclid on Tuesday, July 17, 2018 12:28 PM

So now I am supposed to be repsonsible for the credibility of the news source?  At least somebody picked up the phone and seemed to have talked to authorities about the wreck.  It hardly matters because they had no information other than they have been told that the cause of the derailment will be made public.  But I have no idea if that will be the case.  If anyone here has got a good reliable Doon news source feel free to call them and ask the same question.  I suspect there are people in Doon who know what caused the derailment.  Because people on the ground during the cleanup may have found the cause with convincing clarity. 

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, July 17, 2018 12:55 PM

Euclid
So now I am supposed to be repsonsible for the credibility of the news source? At least somebody picked up the phone and seemed to have talked to authorities about the wreck.

1) What was the name of the 'news source' you contacted?

2) What was the specific telephone number you dialed to reach them?

3) Do you have any name(s) for the people you talked with?

 

Provide those and we might get this discussion to go forward.

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Posted by Euclid on Tuesday, July 17, 2018 1:07 PM

Overmod
 
Euclid
So now I am supposed to be repsonsible for the credibility of the news source? At least somebody picked up the phone and seemed to have talked to authorities about the wreck.

 

1) What was the name of the 'news source' you contacted?

2) What was the specific telephone number you dialed to reach them?

3) Do you have any name(s) for the people you talked with?

 

Provide those and we might get this discussion to go forward.

 

Here it is:  http://www.lyoncountydailynews.com/

Phone number is on the right side of the page.  I don't know the name of the person I talked to.

 

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Posted by VOLKER LANDWEHR on Tuesday, July 17, 2018 1:20 PM

This is what a search for BNSF on the linked website brought up: http://www.lyoncountydailynews.com/index.php?s=bnsf

No causes yet.
Regards, Volker

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, July 17, 2018 1:29 PM

Dakguy201
 
Euclid

I called a local news outlet in Doon about 4 days ago and asked if they knew the cause of the derailment.  They said they did not because no official cause has been announced by BNSF or any other authorities.  They did say that they have been told by the people doing the investigation that the cause will be made public as soon as they find it, but so far, they have not found the cause.  It is not much information, except for the stated intention of publically announcing the cause as soon as it is found.  

 

 

 

Doon is a town of less than 1000 people.  The "local news outlet" is likely the clerk at the Casey's convenience store repeating what the customers purchasing coffee have said.
 
Unless forced to do so by a lawsuit, I have doubts that BNSF will ever release any detailed analysis of what occured.  Many of the small towns in the area reported 5 to 8 inches of rain the night of the derailment.  I suspect any analysis of the wreck will involve inadequate response to conditions somewhere within BNSF. 
 

Laugh The town isn't big enough to have a Casey's.

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, July 17, 2018 1:36 PM

Euclid
Here it is: http://www.lyoncountydailynews.com/ Phone number is on the right side of the page. I don't know the name of the person I talked to.

Thanks!

This is a service of KIWA radio (as I think someone mentioned) out of Rock Rapids, which is about 7 miles from Doon.

I think the telephone number is related to their advertising department, which might not be a direct source for 'information' but they could almost certainly put you through to the person who coordinates the daily news report you can hear streamed/stored on the Web site provided.  I would be tempted to ask questions (politely, please) on the associated newstips@lyoncountydailynews.com site (the link as listed on the page is corrupted)

Note that train wrecks are not the 'normal' sort of community news this service provides, but I think you could stir up enough interest to get boots on the ground.

Where are the pictures of the Queen of the Fair and runner-up?

The meal they're serving sounds pretty good.

I was not expecting to find out how 'spotted dick' pudding got its name on a service of this kind in this location.  But there it was.

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Posted by tree68 on Tuesday, July 17, 2018 2:27 PM

Euclid
So now I am supposed to be repsonsible for the credibility of the news source?

If you want to quote them as a credible information source, yes.  Simple as that.  You'd expect the same from anyone else.

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Tuesday, July 17, 2018 3:18 PM

I think several of you owe euclid an apology.  Statements are often made on here without precise attribution. He's not the only one to have done so.

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Posted by Euclid on Tuesday, July 17, 2018 3:26 PM

tree68
 
Euclid
So now I am supposed to be repsonsible for the credibility of the news source?

 

If you want to quote them as a credible information source, yes.  Simple as that.  You'd expect the same from anyone else.

 

Oh I think that is pretty far fetched.  So you must think I was trying to pull the wool over your eyes by quoting from what you regard as a non-credible source. They said they have no information.  Maybe they really have been informed by authorities that the flood caused the wreck, but they are so non-credible that they forgot that they were informed.  How do you determine that the source in Doon is not a credible information source?  How do you determine that any news source is credible or not credible?  Personally I would not "expect the same from anyone else", as you say.  I consume news, and judge whether I think it is credible.  It would never occur to me that it should be independently certified to be credible in order to protect me from incorrect news.      

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Posted by Cotton Belt MP104 on Tuesday, July 17, 2018 3:52 PM

[quote user="Murphy Siding"]

     The line didn't stay closed too long. On Saturday the 14th I caught two trains, one coming off the line the other going onto the line at Garretson, S.D. The northbound was all tankers.

 

[/quote

ASSUMING the above is a reliable source  .....SARCASM, I say again, SARCASM

Since the information is given, and I am sure it is reliable, it causes me to wonder.  If there was such horrible damage due to the flooding issue, which has been documented and discussed in GREAT detail  (btw..... that's why I started this thread) ......... how come they got back to operating so quickly, without delay due to all the work that would be needed to repair ROW undermined by flooding?

To me this report of traffic running again, seems to suggest this accident cause was like what would have happened on dry ROW and the cause was the usual reason for derailments.  i.e. NOT flood related  mike endmrw0717181547

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Posted by Cotton Belt MP104 on Tuesday, July 17, 2018 4:07 PM

charlie hebdo

I think several of you owe euclid an apology.  Statements are often made on here without precise attribution. He's not the only one to have done so.

 

I don't know about an appology, but I would hope, as another has suggest on this thread, this would happen.  Perhaps Eculid should institute the lawsuit against BNSF to reveal the cause of the derailment, as that is what it will take to find the true cause. 

Elsewhere in a TRAINS news article comment section, there is chastisment over the news article being very "loose" with facts.  This draws attention to the possiblity of the cashier at the local store might be more "factual" than the professioal reporter being the source and not exactly accurate   mike endmrw0717181604

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Posted by Euclid on Tuesday, July 17, 2018 4:20 PM

Cotton Belt MP104
Elsewhere in a TRAINS news article comment section, there is chastisment over the news article being very "loose" with facts. This draws attention to the possiblity of the cashier at the local store might be more "factual" than the professioal reporter being the source and not exactly accurate mike endmrw0717181604

Yes, that is why I went to Doon.  All of the big credible news sources have nothing to say on the subject.  A thousand of them must have covered it with the same story the day it happened.  Now they are all stacked up at the top of any Google search with the words"Doon" and "derailment" in the search, and it is all the same old news.  Very credible though.  Sometimes it is best to stop in at the gas station and ask what happened.

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, July 17, 2018 4:48 PM

Euclid
Oh I think that is pretty far fetched. So you must think I was trying to pull the wool over your eyes by quoting from what you regard as a non-credible source. They said they have no information. Maybe they really have been informed by authorities that the flood caused the wreck, but they are so non-credible that they forgot that they were informed. How do you determine that the source in Doon is not a credible information source? How do you determine that any news source is credible or not credible? Personally I would not "expect the same from anyone else", as you say. I consume news, and judge whether I think it is credible. It would never occur to me that it should be independently certified to be credible in order to protect me from incorrect news.



 

    I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night, but I do know the owner of the lumberyard in Doon. I asked him what the people in town knew about the cause of the derailment. He said "nothing- we just figure stuff happens".

 

 

 

     To be fair, I did try to find the same media source that euclid had found. I had Googled “newspaper+Doon, Iowa”.  That lead me to a Facebook page for something like a countywide, monthly  Shopper’s News free paper. The last entry on the page was from last fall asking if anyone had ideas for newspaper articles. I don’t recall if that paper is affiliated with a radio station.

     For what it’s worth, Rock Rapids is about 14 miles away, not 7 as someone had mentioned, not that it makes the news any less credible.

 

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, July 17, 2018 4:50 PM

Cotton Belt MP104
Murphy Siding
The line didn't stay closed too long. On Saturday the 14th I caught two trains, one coming off the line the other going onto the line at Garretson, S.D. The northbound was all tankers.
ASSUMING the above is a reliable source .....SARCASM, I say again, SARCASM



      I don't know if that guy is a reliable source or not. I did get som egood photos of the train though. Stick out tongue

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Posted by tree68 on Tuesday, July 17, 2018 4:57 PM

charlie hebdo
I think several of you owe euclid an apology.

You haven't known Bucky as long as some of us, I gather.

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Posted by Electroliner 1935 on Tuesday, July 17, 2018 6:47 PM

Murphy Siding
    I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night, but I do know the owner of the lumberyard in Doon. I asked him what the people in town knew about the cause of the derailment. He said "nothing- we just figure stuff happens".  

Now that is a factual statement. Thank You Murph.

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Posted by BigJim on Wednesday, July 18, 2018 7:57 AM

jeffhergert
The engineer had brought the train to a stop, I got off, and he pulled the indicated car up to me.  (That was, and still is allowed when operating on wood ties.)


In my entire career, that was never allowed on the N&W/NS because of exactly what you wrote " When the train started moving, it had seized up and had twisted off. "

.

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Wednesday, July 18, 2018 9:22 AM

Murphy Siding
For what it’s worth, Rock Rapids is about 14 miles away, not 7 as someone had mentioned

For what it's worth, 12.9 to 13.1 miles. 

Lost in all the usual obfuscations, the point is Euclid was correct.  He did check with the nearest local newspaper for an update.  To cast aspersions on his credibility [in this instance only] was simply wrong and rude.

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, July 18, 2018 10:27 AM

charlie hebdo
 
Murphy Siding
For what it’s worth, Rock Rapids is about 14 miles away, not 7 as someone had mentioned

 

For what it's worth, 12.9 to 13.1 miles. 

Lost in all the usual obfuscations, the point is Euclid was correct.  He did check with the nearest local newspaper for an update.  To cast aspersions on his credibility [in this instance only] was simply wrong and rude.

 



     For what it's worth, the distance probably depends on whether you're talking downtown to downtown, or measuring from one of the outlying subdivisions I suppose.Mischief

      Fair enough comment on the sleuthing skills of euclid chasing down his big media contacts….something about blind squirrels finding an occasional acorn….  I’ll wait until he gets the definitive answer from his sources.

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