MidlandMike Full air-packs last 30 minutes.
Full air-packs last 30 minutes.
Our new packs are rated for 45 minutes, and 4500PSI packs with the 'big' bottles are rated at one hour. At a leisurely pace of 3 MPH, they could likely get out.
Rated vs actual is another story. A working firefighter might only get 15 minutes out of a 30 minute bottle.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
MidlandMike Full air-packs last 30 minutes. It's doubtful the crew could walk out of the middle of the 5.6 mile tunnel in that time.
Full air-packs last 30 minutes. It's doubtful the crew could walk out of the middle of the 5.6 mile tunnel in that time.
Replacement air bottles are located at two locations in the Table Tunnel, and one location in the Wolverine Tunnel.
If trouble arises in the tunnel that makes it impossible to move the train, the crew is to immediately uncouple the head-end locomotives and remove them from the tunnel. I suspect (but cannot confirm) that DP remotes are to be shut down.
If it is not possible to move the locomotives they must all be shut down before the crew exits the tunnel on foot.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
CN would not have much to gain either. The problem with using CP and CN in directional running here is that CN is quite a direct, straight line from Winnipeg to Edmonton. CP's route is quite meandering and parts of it are not that well rode on. Here is a map of the railroads across the prairie's (you can download a PDF of it): http://trn.trains.com/railroads/railroad-maps/2010/03/evolution-of-canadas-grain-network
Between Saskatoon and Edmonton, CP route does parallel CN to Unity, where CP splits: one line to Lloydmister and the other, much busier, to Wetaskawin. Neither route goes of Unity would work as they are way off CN's operations. Honestly, I don't CN has benefit for directional running Unity and Saskatoon as well. From Saskatoon to Portage la Prairie, where CN and CP's transconinental routes meets, it does not work either. CP's route is just too curvey and going east of the point Lanigan, SA, is not that well used. It would probably significant upgrades to accomodate CN traffic.
The Table Tunnel is 5.6 miles long, and the Wolverine Tunnel is 3.7 miles. Neither tunnel has ever had any form of forced ventilation.
How long are the 2 tunnels?
RE: Tumbler Ridge, coal traffic never did reach the level the line's designers anticipated, and it turned out that there was enough spacing between trains to allow air to clear in the two long tunnels with diesel operation.
The electrification was shut down in 2000, after the Quintette mine closed. All trains have been diesel-powered since then, with crews being required to carry portable bottled air packs and masks with them.
The Bullmoose mine continued operating until it ran out of coal in 2003, at which point the entire branch line was mothballed.
But coal prices started to rise dramatically around that time, and by 2005 new mines had opened in the area, causing the railway to be re-activated. Teck even started the process of re-opening the Quintette mine, but the good times did not last. Coal prices crashed in 2014, and within a year all the mines were closed again. Once again the railway was mothballed.
History then repeated itself, the mines re-opened as coal prices rose in 2017, and the rail line was returned to service by last fall. CN dragged their feet on doing repairs, wanting a longer-term commitment or extra contribution from the mines. As you can imagine this has not made CN very popular in the area.
Today trains are composed of up to 116 aluminium cars and are powered by 3 GE ES44AC or ET44AC locomotives, normally with two on the head end and one on the tail end. By comparison at least 4 of the electrics were required for a 100 car train.
You were very fortunate to be able to see the line in its original configuration.
THERE IS A CP LINE THAT PARALLELS THE CN LINE BETWEEN WINNIPEG AND EDMONTON.PERHAPS THEY COULD WORK A DEAL AND USE DIRECTIONAL RUNNING.BUT,CP HAS ALOT LESS TO GAIN FROM THIS ARRANGEMENT,AND MAY NOT WANT TO HELP THEIR RIVAL. STAY TUNED
SD70DudeThe BC North line to Prince Rupert has always had other traffic besides Tumbler Ridge coal (Alberta mines ship there too along with much grain, and the line has significant traffic in forest products), and by the time those mines closed in the early 2000s the intermodal plans were already in the works.
A slight change of subject but as you mentioned the Tumbler Ridge operation, I hope you can answer a question I have. My Dad was born in 1904 and worked for the MoPac until about 1947. He wrote about six articles for Trains back in the early forties. In the mid 1990s he wanted to see the Tumbler Ridge area and the WacBennett Dam. So we flew to Vancouver and took the BC to Prince George, rented a car and drove there. We saw the mine and the shops where the Electric Locomotives were serviced. As you mentioned, the mine shut down and the line went dead. Am I correct that the Mine was reactivated and then again shut down? And did they run the coal trains through the tunnel with diesels when it reopened? Thanks.
Gotrans 1. If the decline in freight traffic has occurred then why is there less track space available for passenger trains and why are they being re-scheuduled at slower and slower speeds over the years in eastern Canada? The reason for Via's dismal on time performance is due to the decline in track capacity. The reduction in passenger service is not just the fault of the railways, governments are to slow to fund Via in order to upgrade tracks that would allow faster, more frequent and more reliable service.
1. If the decline in freight traffic has occurred then why is there less track space available for passenger trains and why are they being re-scheuduled at slower and slower speeds over the years in eastern Canada? The reason for Via's dismal on time performance is due to the decline in track capacity. The reduction in passenger service is not just the fault of the railways, governments are to slow to fund Via in order to upgrade tracks that would allow faster, more frequent and more reliable service.
I cannot speak to specifics but suspect you would find that a combination of longer, heavier, underpowered trains and poor decisions by operating management on a daily basis contribute to the congestion. Bigger trains are more prone to breakdowns, and when that happens they cause bigger delays.
I also suspect, but cannot confirm that increased commuter traffic (GO and AMT) around Toronto and Montreal contribute to delays. VIA has also been adding trains of their own again since Laliberte ceased to be CEO.
Gotrans 2. Do the railways need to get government approval to remove track from service when it is not a discontinuance? If they do why does the government not force the railway to maintain double track where it exists? When coal traffic almost dissapeared on the Prince Rupert line, CN didn't pull up the rail, they left it in place along with the signals. The cost to restart the unused portions was probably limited to some surfacing, tie replacement,checking track circuits and signal light bulbs.
2. Do the railways need to get government approval to remove track from service when it is not a discontinuance? If they do why does the government not force the railway to maintain double track where it exists? When coal traffic almost dissapeared on the Prince Rupert line, CN didn't pull up the rail, they left it in place along with the signals. The cost to restart the unused portions was probably limited to some surfacing, tie replacement,checking track circuits and signal light bulbs.
The BC North line to Prince Rupert has always had other traffic besides Tumbler Ridge coal (Alberta mines ship there too along with much grain, and the line has significant traffic in forest products), and by the time those mines closed in the early 2000s the intermodal plans were already in the works. The line previously had no signals, CN installed CTC and increased tunnel clearances to prepare for the startup of intermodal service.
I believe you are referring to the Tumbler Subdivision, which was mothballed both in the mid-2000s and quite recently during periods of mine closures. But it was not abandoned or officially removed from service, CN simply stopped running trains there. No trains meant no need for inspections or maintenance. I do not believe a railway needs Federal approval to perform these actions. The Tumbler subdivison has also never had signals of any kind.
Gotrans 3. How can Parks Canada deny CN the right to relay the tracks previously pulled up? Does Transport Canada not have authority over Parks Canada especially when it is not new construction? This applies whether CN demolished a historical building or not.
3. How can Parks Canada deny CN the right to relay the tracks previously pulled up? Does Transport Canada not have authority over Parks Canada especially when it is not new construction? This applies whether CN demolished a historical building or not.
The government would then be in a position of having two powerful departments arguing with each other. Not something particularly appealing to them.
There are also many things the Park could do to make CN's life hard that they are currently not doing. I would compare this to the current "debate" over Trans Mountain pipeline construction in B.C. Despite the Province having no jurisdiction or legal ability to block that project they are still managing to punch above their weight and have nearly succeeded in killing it.
I do not believe that CN wants to start a similar fight.
SD70Dude It is also important to note that the Ontario single-tracking coincided with the installation of bi-directional CTC signalling on those lines. Previously they had only ABS, and I believe each track may have only been signalled in one direction. Freight traffic down east has been declining for many years for a multitude of reasons, many of which CN has little to no control over. While the London-Sarnia line still has healthy freight freight traffic the Hamilton-Niagara Falls-Fort Erie line does not (it hosts fewer than 5 freights a day) and neither line currently has much passenger traffic. I would not be surprised at all to see Metrolinx (GO Transit) purchase the Grimsby Subdivision as part of their expansion plans. The Jasper area is quite a different story. Almost as soon as Hunter left CN they tried to put that double track back in, only to have the request denied by Parks Canada. Why? Because during the same summer the double track was being removed CN tore down their old Jasper roundhouse in the middle of the night, quite literally the day before it was to be declared a historic building. That sin has yet to be forgiven.
It is also important to note that the Ontario single-tracking coincided with the installation of bi-directional CTC signalling on those lines. Previously they had only ABS, and I believe each track may have only been signalled in one direction. Freight traffic down east has been declining for many years for a multitude of reasons, many of which CN has little to no control over.
While the London-Sarnia line still has healthy freight freight traffic the Hamilton-Niagara Falls-Fort Erie line does not (it hosts fewer than 5 freights a day) and neither line currently has much passenger traffic. I would not be surprised at all to see Metrolinx (GO Transit) purchase the Grimsby Subdivision as part of their expansion plans.
The Jasper area is quite a different story. Almost as soon as Hunter left CN they tried to put that double track back in, only to have the request denied by Parks Canada. Why? Because during the same summer the double track was being removed CN tore down their old Jasper roundhouse in the middle of the night, quite literally the day before it was to be declared a historic building. That sin has yet to be forgiven.
The government allows abandonment of sections of track that destroy the network for passenger service. The government should not have allowed CN to abandon the
With Hunter's disdain for double track, you can see how he would have wasted no time ripping out much of the second main between Toronto and Montreal if VIA wasn't there.
He ripped out a bunch on the IC in the US as well.
10000 feet and no dynamics? Today is going to be a good day ...
ADRIAN BALLAM I had feeling that VIA was not the reason for the double-trackage. I am very surprised that the double-track dates back to the 1940's. I thought the only long distance double-track mainline was UP's Overland Route from Chicago to Salt Lake City. ...
I had feeling that VIA was not the reason for the double-trackage. I am very surprised that the double-track dates back to the 1940's. I thought the only long distance double-track mainline was UP's Overland Route from Chicago to Salt Lake City. ...
Santa Fe's Chicago-Los Angles mainline was historically double tracked, except for the middle section between eastern Kansas and central New Mexico, where the mainline split. With the downgrading of the Raton Pass line, the Southern Transcon is also now double tracked except for a couple of bridges. Of course many mainlines east of Chicago were double tracked.
I had feeling that VIA was not the reason for the double-trackage. I am very surprised that the double-track dates back to the 1940's. I thought the only long distance double-track mainline was UP's Overland Route from Chicago to Salt Lake City. I still have the August 2009 Issue of Trains Magazine which I still like to look at frequently which is totally contradicated by the March 2017 issue. I love the CN map in that magazine article. Thank you for the information.
Wow. What an article. 64km from the Edson Subdivision removed under Harrison. I am shocked by that. I didn't know that much double-track was removed from that line. What a mistake that was, especially since that was before intermodal was heading to Prince Rupert as that terminal was completed in 2007. Thank you very much for the information and link to the article.
blue streak 1 Wouldn't it be interesting if the Canadian authorities called Feeny back in to testify ?
Feeny was just the spokesman, the PR talking head that is. I doubt he could tell the difference between a locomotive and a grain car.
People seem to get him confused with Jim Foote for some reason, I guess their names sound similar but they are two very different people. Foote was the head of marketing at CN and a member of Hunter's inner circle, and I would be quite happy to see him and Keith Creel hauled into court to explain these things.
Hunter would be a better witness but he is of course unavailable, having fled to warmer regions when things started to fall apart.
Gotrans It is important to note that Hunter Harrison ripped out sections of double track between London and Sarnia, Hamilton and Niagara Falls and most importantly between Edmonton and Jasper. The removal of the this trackage has played a big part in the current congestion on CN. It is important to compare the differences of opinion between the customers and the CN executives in the article from the Producer. It appears the customer is right. And CN’s focus on the operating expense has been a bit of a failure. FYI; I am a shareholder and in my opinion these removals should never have happened. As a taxpayer, the company should not have been allowed to rip up the trackage constructed at taxpayer expense. The company should be obliged to replace the track as all ground work is already done.
But the best part of that story is the roundhouse site's current use: Jack Squat. They pushed some debris into the turntable pit, smoothed it over and left. Sure was worth the cost of demolition.
It is interesting how the truth comes out eventually and how flippant Mr Feeny appears to have been at the time. He seems like a spin doctor who believes that if you say something is true often enough everbody will believe it is true. I would imagine that very few people would have had the courage to stand up to Mr Harrison.
Is there any financial incentive to CN to make the grain move faster?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Gotrans.”Feeny said the railway has taken that into account.“We think the way we operate is so much better than it was that we can accommodate any foreseeable increase in traffic with no strain.” Darren Qualman, executive secretary of the National Farmers Union, said CN is obsessed with short-term profits.“It seems extremely shortsighted,” he said. “It just seems like one more unnecessary sale of assets and destruction of infrastructure for very little money.” It would be one thing if the railways were losing money and were tearing up track as a matter of economic survival. “But when they’ve got hundreds of millions of dollars in profits, then ripping up double track that was put in at the expense of taxpayers to send that to shareholders as well, seems really illegitimate and shortsighted,” he said. Feeny said the double-tracked rail isn’t needed to run the railways and so it makes no sense to keep it and pay the related ownership and maintenance costs. He added the company will continue to review the future of other sections of the double track.
This pre-WWII map shows the Kingston and Dundas subdivisions as being double track:
http://www.npshistory.com/publications/stea/shs/images/shs3.jpg
I can't recall the exact date but it may have been Grand Trunk who built the double track, before CN was formed. CTC would have been installed sometime after WWII.
It is unfortunately missing from the free online version, but a side piece to Fred Frailey's feature article "Hunter's Way or the Highway" (August 2009 issue of Trains Magazine) listed about 30 VIA passenger trains and 20 CN freights per day. 4 of those freights were wayfreights or roadswitchers. This TSB report from 2015 gives similar numbers:
http://www.tsb.gc.ca/ENG/rapports-reports/rail/2015/r15t0245/r15t0245.asp
I am very surprised by that, yet it makes sense since there are a lot of VIA trains going to between Toronto and Montreal and Toronto and southwestern Ontario. The reason I am surprised is CN is the one who built it and it is owned by CN and if it was for VIA, that was nice of them to do that. That would be an interesting reading to me on the double-tracking of the Kingston and Dundas Subdivisions.
Three questions for you:
The only reason the Toronto to Montreal line remains double tracked is because of the VIA traffic. If the VIA traffic wasn't there, Hunter would have torn the double track out years ago. The Kingston Sub does not have enough freight traffic to warrant double track. The same goes for the line to London.
I never would have thought CN was a cheap railroad (3.2 billion is a lot of money for budget), but this is now cause for concern here. It's fine if it's a person like me, who is definitely cheap, to be this way, but in the case of CN here, that is not a good thing, especially with all the scope of expansion possibilities.
Walker Yard I have heard numerous times as a choke point. I have started developing an analysis on relocating Walker's main operations from Central Edmonton to Scotford or Fort Saskatchewan Yard near where many of the refineries are. Obvious downside would be this yard not directly on the mainline (on the Prairie North Line), but there are some good reasons to relocate the main operations. I even drove by that yard last October and noticed it was being added onto.
That being said, CN does have entirely double-track mainlines. From Pickering Junction, ON to Drummondville, QC, CN is entirely double-tracked. Also, from Aldershot to London, CN is entirely double-track. Those segments have been double-tracked for decades and whether they do such as a large scale project like UP is doing on their Sunset Route remains to be seen. I hope they do.
Is it feasible? Yes!
Would it be a great investment and vote of confidence in both the Company's and the Country's futures? Yes!
Does CN have enough money to do it? Yes!
So will it happen? Heck no!
Because like Traisessive said, they are too darn cheap. Shareholders come first, everyone else last. That's what really matters to those making the decisions.
I also agree completely about the yard congestion issue, but that is going to be even more expensive to fix and I don't see anything being done to address it. We can't even get new yard engines, let alone track.
But if they do decide to do something (hint, hint J.J. if you guys are reading this) rebuilding and reopening the Edmonton (Walker) hump yard would be a great place to start. It's closure has been a unmitigated, congested disaster for most of the past 7 years.
CN doesn't really like to spend money. They are all about squeezing their infrastructure as tight as they can. That's their business model.
They'll do little tidbits of extra capacity here and there but I highly doubt you'll see a truly twinned mainline. You'll have your pinch points at bridges and valleys remaining single of course, but I just can't see CN investing that much money into the mainline.
The biggest thing CN needs to work on in my opinion is their fluidity and capacity in their major terminals. A lot of the congestion and service issues are wholy the cause of terminals being major pinch points.
The oil is lesser factor of interest to CN compared to the intermodal, grain, and forest products growth when it comes to double-tracking towards the west. Also, the oil traffic that is more likely to contribute to a greater increase of traffic would be heading east from Edmonton rather than west to Vancouver towards the other side of Canada and the Gulf Coast. Oil is tough commodity to forecast for railroads since there is so much volatility in the markets and the threat (to the railroads) of building pipelines. I don't believe CN would double-track a mainline based solely oil. It would have to be a variety of factors.
Regarding oil, there is a proposed twining of an existing pipeline between the Edmonton area and Vancouver, but it has generated strong opposition. Why would double tracking CN between those points for increased oil transport, generate any less opposition?
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