As mentioned in the Altenheim thread. I grew up in River Forest in the late 70's, left in 2001. One thing I distinctly remember railfaning the C&NW is that it was clear that at Riverforest Station, there used to be a 4th track and a platform on the south side with concrete walk way.
As of the early 90s, a hole had been cut in the concrete and a middle platform that could be serviced from the middle track and the south side main had been installed.
My question is, when was this 4th track removed? At the Desplains River, the entire thing drops to 2 tracks. At Lathrop to the east, there's a siding off the south main to I forget what industry. I think it was a meat distributor? Clearly this would have been reworked and literally just beyond this is the CTA yard for the Green line and there's no longer any space for a 4th track. Can anyone give me insight into what was going on here?
There definitely was another track on the CNW elevation through River Forest and Oak Park. I've seen it on valuation maps. It was removed by CNW long ago. I don't know the date, but I suspect it was sometime around the time CNW discontinued puddle jumper commuter trains and a number of local stations on the line after 1958 (One of Ben Heineman initiatives to cut the railroad's losses was to cut local commuter services and stations in CTA's service territory - he didn't think it made sense for the commuter service to be competing against CTA in the city).
The track removal and station closings also made it possible to reroute CTA 'L' trains onto the CNW embankment between Laramie Avenue and the west end of the 'L' line in Forest Park (I think it was in 1962). Prior to this, the 'L' line had run on the surface (under trolley wire), immediately adjacent to the CNW elevation on the south. I also recall that there's a water line under the location of a removed track on the embankment. Keep in mind this is all from memory, and my memory in my declining years has some short circuits.
So the Green line dropped down to street level at some point? I must say, I used to drive Lake Street back from UIC in the 1990s and I always wondered at that jog over to the CNW line.
In 1952 I rode the Lake Street elevated to the end of the line. I remember the trolley-pole operation on the surface. I think there was a grade crossing with a streetcar line. In 1967 the line was on the C&NW embankmen in the area. Quite an improvement, and quite a change.
The Lake Street Elevated Railway was built at ground level in Oak Park when it opened for service with steam locomotives in 1892. There were even a couple of street running branches at the outset.
The Lake Street L was electrified before it was extended west of Laramie. It ran on the ground along the C&NW from Pine (where Lake changes sides) to just west of Harlem. The C&NW was raised AFTER the Lake Street L was extended at ground level. The C&NW had five tracks from the time the line was raised until the mid 1930s, when the center track was removed in favor of a water line carrying Chicago city water out to Proviso yard. The fourth track was removed between 1958 and 1962. The "L" moved "upstairs" off of South Blvd. in November 1962.
The street running branch ran on Lombard and Randolph to Wisconsin Avenue (Marion) until 1902, leasing the Randolph track from the Suburban Railroad, a predecessor of Chicago and West Towns.
Metra and UP are working on a plan to extend the third track west from River Forest towards Proviso sometime soon. The bridge over the Des Plaines River was the original choke point.
From what I understand from railroad.net forums, Metra and UP came up with a cost estimate of around $90 million to extend three tracks from Vale to 25th Avenue. The Des Plaines River bridge passed a survey in 2014, and some preliminary engineering was done for points west, but no action since then. In the middle are two CREATE grade separation projects, at 5th and 25th avenues, neither funded at this point.
The 25th Avenue grade-separation project is (thankfully!) completed.(I'd like to see one at First Avenue.)
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
The fourth track was designated as track #A-1. Originally, track #A-1 started at the Kenton interlocker MP 5.5 in Chicago and went to the Vale interlocker at MP 10.0 in River Forest. This auxliary track ran south of the three main tracks. (C&NW numbered their tracks #1 - #3 south to north.)
In 1962 the CTA elevated the Lake Branch (now the Green Line) on to the C&NW ROW; a process that required that track #A-1 be removed between Kenton and Lathrop Ave.
Per a C&NW 1985 timetable, track #A-1 left main track #1 at the Latrhop Ave. interlocker MP 8.9 and continued to Vale MP 10.0. This track was only signaled for westbound movements. Per a 1992 C&NW Suburban Territory track chart dated 3/1/92 the track is still there and listed as an auxliary track. Then, the same track charted updated in 1993 and dated 3/1/93 doesn't list the track. So, sometime between March '92 and March '93 is when track #A-1 was taken out of service. I don't know the exact date and when the rails were actually removed. One strange thing to note... The March '92 track chart shows #A-1 (aux) as 'CWR 1985' (welded rail updated 1985). That's weird because you wouldn't expect that short siding to get welded rail only to be taken out a little over seven years later.
One other thing to note is that the C&NW relaid a very short stretch of track where track #A-1 used to be near Kenton Ave in the late 1980's as 'Track B' to get the - at the time - new double stack container trains under the low BRC bridge.
References:
C&NW 1985 timetable (No. 7) effective Jan, 1 1985 - This is from my personal collection.
For all other track charts and timetables I used Multimodal Ways:
http://www.multimodalways.org/archives/rrs/C&NW/C&NW.html
Chris
Here's a nice picture showing the Vale interlocker in River Forest the way is was back in 1987:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwilson1949/4448062202/in/photolist-cnYmWm-ojQbhJ-chUkbu-k4GdeK-7zZA4b-dXG1Fx-bnjr1Q-pgrAey-9Pt6ER-7Gvyuu-9yGxp5-5efJMi-7zVPWT-6RDfJm-9esN37-aiZQRT-6RDgm5-7LZvXi-7zVPPP-fq79yX-9eFBQv-336Ypt-9yGxkQ-97Uzqf-cnYoiu-7zZzW1-7M4tVC-fqmowG-aiZVWi-6QVe8V-97ET8b-7zZA7J-33bvCC-dk2Aqz-7TRmQb-aj1bbi-bdgNVk-bdgPig-7CPQig-CirEu8-bAx2sh-oiZYyN-7TRmUb-hkkJHG-YrgKJW-6QZhYU-nnHVSv-xMjN5w-tyxrBs-p6Wvtc/
The view is looking east and left to right are tracks 3, 2, 1, A1
And a bit more research gives a probable answer as to why track A-1 was upgraded with welded rail in 1985. It has to do with the Soo bridge and the - at the time - new double stack container trains. The Soo bridge, like the BRC bridge to the east, was too low for the double stacks to fit under. The final solution was to raise the Soo bridge but before they did that, track A-1 was undercut and designated as the 'stack track' according to what I read. Here's another picture at River Forest in 1988 looking east at the Soo bridge and you can clearly see that track A-1 (far right) is much lower than the other three tracks under the bridge:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwilson1949/4524912466/in/photolist-cnYmWm-ojQbhJ-chUkbu-k4GdeK-7zZA4b-dXG1Fx-bnjr1Q-pgrAey-9Pt6ER-7Gvyuu-9yGxp5-5efJMi-7zVPWT-6RDfJm-9esN37-aiZQRT-6RDgm5-7LZvXi-7zVPPP-fq79yX-9eFBQv-336Ypt-9yGxkQ-97Uzqf-cnYoiu-7zZzW1-7M4tVC-fqmowG-aiZVWi-6QVe8V-97ET8b-7zZA7J-33bvCC-dk2Aqz-7TRmQb-aj1bbi-bdgNVk-bdgPig-7CPQig-CirEu8-bAx2sh-oiZYyN-7TRmUb-hkkJHG-YrgKJW-6QZhYU-nnHVSv-xMjN5w-tyxrBs-p6Wvtc
Also, it appears that center platform island between tracks two and one was built in the mid-eighties ('85 / '86 ?) to replace the old platform next to track A-1.
The few evening rush hour trains that stopped there before Metra reopened the station building used track 1-A. The platform for track 1-A had the "station building" seen in the Vale photo that housed a (closed) stairway to the station tunnel and (fairly beat up) concrete stairways to both Thatcher and Keystone.
The picture of the Soo Line bridge shows the old double track setup.
Can't really tell if that's a single or double span at that point. Like I said in the Altenheim thread, I don't remember it ever being double in the 80s and 90s.
Interesting that the center Island was there at that point and I guess I didn't realize Metra didn't use the station. I remember Little League in the mid-80s at Keystone park we always ran up to the station and it seemed like it was in use. At the time, I don't remember the 1A track or the station structure being in place...but the time frame of little league was 84-88 so right when all that was changing.
Interesting that the final changes happened in 1992. I turned 16 in April of 92 and that's when I really stepped up my railfanning due to access to a car.
Ah Vale Interlocker, how many hours I've spent there waiting for a green or Yellow or wondering when the headlight that was probably in Proviso was going to turn into a train passing me.
More in that Photo stream (hope the photog doesn't mind)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/m_lastovich_photo_flo/1337397328/in/photolist-cnYmWm-ojQbhJ-chUkbu-k4GdeK-7zZA4b-dXG1Fx-bnjr1Q-pgrAey-9Pt6ER-7Gvyuu-9yGxp5-5efJMi-7zVPWT-6RDfJm-9esN37-aiZQRT-6RDgm5-7LZvXi-7zVPPP-fq79yX-9eFBQv-336Ypt-9yGxkQ-97Uzqf-cnYoiu-7zZzW1-7M4tVC-fqmowG-aiZVWi-6QVe8V-97ET8b-7zZA7J-33bvCC-dk2Aqz-7TRmQb-aj1bbi-bdgNVk-bdgPig-7CPQig-CirEu8-bAx2sh-oiZYyN-7TRmUb-hkkJHG-YrgKJW-6QZhYU-nnHVSv-xMjN5w-tyxrBs-p6Wvtc/
I don't see much difference in the SOO bridge. It is higher, but I don't see any othr telltales that it is a single
I can't tell, but THIS AWESOME SHOT might show that it's a double track bridge in 1985. Just based on the curved supports. Still not clear to me though.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwilson1949/4322086793/in/photolist-cnYmWm-ojQbhJ-chUkbu-k4GdeK-7zZA4b-dXG1Fx-bnjr1Q-pgrAey-9Pt6ER-7Gvyuu-9yGxp5-5efJMi-7zVPWT-6RDfJm-9esN37-aiZQRT-6RDgm5-7LZvXi-7zVPPP-fq79yX-9eFBQv-336Ypt-9yGxkQ-97Uzqf-cnYoiu-7zZzW1-7M4tVC-fqmowG-aiZVWi-6QVe8V-97ET8b-7zZA7J-33bvCC-dk2Aqz-7TRmQb-aj1bbi-bdgNVk-bdgPig-7CPQig-CirEu8-bAx2sh-oiZYyN-7TRmUb-hkkJHG-YrgKJW-6QZhYU-nnHVSv-xMjN5w-tyxrBs-p6Wvtc/
Again, thank you flickr contributor.
The change in the support piers is the giveaway. The more pockmarked steel, and the gusset along the top of the main girder, indicate the later single track setup.
CShaveRR CSaveRR writes, in part:I'd like to see one [highway grade separation] at First Avenue.
CSaveRR writes, in part:I'd like to see one [highway grade separation] at First Avenue.
So would I. This project is listed on the CREATE Rail website as GS-12. From the project status listing, there appear to be the beginnings of design work for it, but whether that means the project file has merely been dusted off or whether real desk work is being done (filling out forms, creating up to date cost estimates, etc,), I can't tell -- and the only Entity who knows doesn't communicate small stuff like this.
Incidentally, in checking out the CREATE project status map, I noticed some few projects shown in gray icons, which I don't recall from prior website checks, and I'm wondering whether a couple of new projects have appeared or someone decreed that an improved graphic be employed -- or my aged, addled brain is deteriorating further. For what it's worth, having spent seven years in Chicagoland working in rail-related jobs, I can come up a lot more projects that could easily make the CREATE list, especially in the realm of highway grade separation.
rcdrye The change in the support piers is the giveaway. The more pockmarked steel, and the gusset along the top of the main girder, indicate the later single track setup.
That shows that the bridge was raised, but not that 1 of the 2 spans was removed. AS I said, I believe the double track was removed prior to the bridge being raised.
Not necessarily germane to this discussion, but presented nonetheless. A trip through the two-track territory today revealed that a couple of new signal bridges have been put up (but aren't in service yet, of course). They suggest that--at least on the eastern half of the project--the new third track will be north of the existing two. I'm wondering if the tracks will make a minor, perhaps barely noticeable, jog so that the third track starts out on the south side of the existing two, since the south track is the one that currently ends at 25th Avenue.Finally, I wonder how long after the abandonment of the WC line before UP removes that bridge. I know that when the double-stack operation started, UP lowered all three tracks a bit below the old CGW overhead at Lombard (the stacks had fit under the bridge, but it was too close for comfort!). Once the bridge was gone, the dip in the tracks also disappered over a brief time. I suspect that something similar would happen at River Forest.
Carl, the CN has no plans to abandon the Wauesha Sub through River Forest at this time. In fact, as I posted on the Altenheim thread, the CN has advised the town of River Forest that while this segment of track isn't currently active, they do plan to start running light engines starting sometime this month.
When I commuted from Lombard in the late sixties,my recollection of the Soo bridge was that the C&NW had height sensors and signals that would notify engineers if their train exceeded the clearance of the Soo bridge. Are they still there?I don't see them in the photos.
I think I have a B&W photo of the tell-tales somewhere, taken about 1967. I'm sure they got removed in the 1970s when tell-tales were removed just about everywhere. I don't remember any signals.
I wasn't referring to the Tell-tales (A tell-tale, also known as a bridge warning, is a series of ropes suspended over the tracks to give warning to a person on the roof of the train that the train is approaching a low-clearance obstacle, such as a tunnel or a bridge) but the mast supported lamp and photocell equipment used to detect a car that was higher than the bottom of the Soo line bridge.
I don't remember the westward signal (if there was any--any freight going east through there probably encountered more severe clearances elsewhere), but I do remember the eastward over-height detector. The detector was near 25th Avenue in Melrose Park, and the signal for it was some distance east. It was similar to the CNW's old hotbox detectors, in that it was a position-light signal with lunar-white bulbs...vertical meant that you'd fit, and horizontal meant nuh-uh.
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