When a signal goes out

[kenneo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BigJim

Kenneo,
Thanks for mentioning the number boards, I hadn't thought about what could come through them!

There was an article in TRAINS of the accident north of Denver sometime after it happened. It quoted the accident investigation as reporting that anything that could be dislodged to admit the gasoline had been dislodged. Headlights. Train indicators. Number boards. Nose door. I don't remember any windshield damage (broken out, type). The gasoline that entered the nose also opened the door between the cab and the nose compartment and "filled" the cab with flaming gas.

I'm glad that the new doors on full width low-nose motors are designed to seal when something attempts to pu***hrough them, such as in an accident. Looks like the next weak link is the front windows.

[kenneo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

And the nose door!

You are correct, Dave. I had forgotten about the nose doors looking for other employment until long after I had posted the note. Figured I would just ignore the lapse.

[BigJim]

Actually the nose doors of todays wide-bodys appear to be pretty safe. They open outward, there is a lip and a seal so anything trying to come in has to make an S turn to do it.

The windshield would be the weakest link in this senario.

As an aside,
A RF told me how he and a R/H Foreman had to ride a train out of Ft. Wayne during a snow storm. The lead loco had a low nose. Somewhere along the way they ran into a snow drift. The snow knocked out the windshieds and filled the cab pinning the RF & R/H Foreman to the back of the bulkhead!

[daveklepper]

And the nose door!

[BigJim]

Kenneo,
Thanks for mentioning the number boards, I hadn't thought about what could come through them!

[jimrice4449]

All the above is good data but I'd like to emphasize "the most restrictive indication normally displayed by that signal" In Spokane Wa there is an interlocking (Napa St) that has some dark (non-signaled) tracks running into it. On the BNSF line to Hillyard, Kettle Falls & Canada there is a signal for southbound trains at Mission St. It"s the distant signal for Napa St interlocking and doesn't show track. occupancy. It normally displays yellow. Since the normal track speed is less than "medium" a train may pass this signal at track speed "prepared to stop at next signal" if the signal is dark.
jimrice4449

[jimrice4449]

All the above is good data but I'd like to emphasize "the most restrictive indication normally displayed by that signal" In Spokane Wa there is an interlocking (Napa St) that has some dark (non-signaled) tracks running into it. On the BNSF line to Hillyard, Kettle Falls & Canada there is a signal for southbound trains at Mission St. It"s the distant signal for Napa St interlocking and doesn't show track. occupancy. It normally displays yellow. Since the normal track speed is less than "medium" a train may pass this signal at track speed "prepared to stop at next signal" if the signal is dark.

[kenneo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jimrice4449

All of the above is good data but I want to emphasize "the most restrictive indication normally displayed by that signal" In Spokane there is an interlocking (Napa St) that has some dark tracks leading into it. These tracks have approach (distant) signals that ordinarily display yellow and don't change to indicate track occupancy. Since the track speed is less than "medium" a train coming up on these signals showing no indication would not have to take any action other than to "approach next signal prepared to stop". This is admitedly a rare situation but the rare situations can "git ya".

The posts concerning brake applications were, esentially, off topic, but connected to the thred.

You are correct about distant signals. They can either be "automatic" or not. Actually, if the signal has the ability to display track occupancy as well as approach (distant) signal indications, it must display a sign or plate stating that it is "semi-automatic" (usually a triangle with SA on it). Simple distant signals must bear a "D" plate. In either case, no number is affixed to the signal mast and the train must approach the home signal prepared to stop unless its indication instructs otherwise and the engineer can see it.

[jimrice4449]

All of the above is good data but I want to emphasize "the most restrictive indication normally displayed by that signal" In Spokane there is an interlocking (Napa St) that has some dark tracks leading into it. These tracks have approach (distant) signals that ordinarily display yellow and don't change to indicate track occupancy. Since the track speed is less than "medium" a train coming up on these signals showing no indication would not have to take any action other than to "approach next signal prepared to stop". This is admitedly a rare situation but the rare situations can "git ya".

[kenneo]

Big Jim -- the truck in question both times were empty low-boy semi-trailers high centered on a crossing. No tanks.

If you do have the situation you mentioned, absolutely widen to run 8, close the windows, turn off the air (if so equipped), and hide on the floor against the front bulkhead. Pray the windows don't break or you don't get a UDE and you stay on the track. Stop later.

I have vivid memories of two UP CITY trains that hit fuel trucks, one north of Denver and the other near Las Vegas. Those beautiful E's showed an ugly failing about them ... the headlights and numberboards disappeared, gas flowed in and the crew was toast. Even though they did what you and I have mentioned, they got enough gas into the front of the locomotive to kill them. The trains got through ok and the traincrew had to pull the rear plug to stop the train.

You are correct in your description of what happens at the triple valve with an emergency application. I left out what you mentioned above in an effort to simplify the answer (if possible) and not confuse things unnecessarly while still explaining the point.

I couldn't remember the propagation rates of the applications, but your figures say volumes. The only reason for the delay (as you know) by the engineer in making the reduction is to permit the train to react to that reduction without setting up a derailment type of situation. Each train is different, so the specific actions and their timing would be different on each train. In the example I gave for #11, when I asked how long he paused between sets, the engineer told me about a second or second and 1/2.

[BigJim]

Just off the top of my head the service application goes through the train line at about 6000 ft/sec and the emergency at 900 ft/sec.

One thing about the emergency application, it doesn't just slap the brake shoes against the wheels, like WHAM!. While the signal goes very fast as the trainline air gets dumped at the "vent valve" (not through the control stand) the action is controled from the "triple valve" to the brake rigging.

The very nature of the way the brake system HAS to work tends to control the application. The emergency application results in a higher brake cylinder pressure, if this pressure were allowed to come on all at once, parts would start breaking in the rigging.

There was mention of the locomotive stopping on top of the gas truck. I have given this situation a lot of thought as to what I would do.
I the first thing that I wouldn't do is put the train in emergency! The first thing I would do is close the windows if they are open.
Then I would open the throttle as much as possible, hoping the collision itself didn't put the train in emergency. I want to get through the fire not stop in it.
I also would want to get the rest of the train through the fire just in case there are DANGEROUS cars in the train.
If I am still alive enough to operate the train I will then worry about getting it stopped.

[jeaton]

Eric

I see how that works. I have known that there is a time factor involved for brakes applying from front to rear, but without any training or experience, had just assumed that the same time factors would go for either service or emergency applications.

Thanks for your thorough reply.

Jay

[kenneo]

I don't know of any formal testing, but I do know of instances where very similar trains (AMTK #11) and the same crossing were involved, one where the green fireman, seeing a truck on the crossing ahead, pulled the plug, the train T-Boned the truckand went several trainlengths byond the crossing with the lead unit riding ontop of the truck. Later, same train, same situation, same engineer but different fireman, and from the same place on the railroad, the engineer did a quick service stop procedure and the train stopped short of the truck.

The physics at work are as follows. If you get the brakes set on each car prior to putting full braking force on them, each car will stop itself. If you use the emergency stop position (pull the plug), the fron end of the train sets up very fast and the back of the train starts to pu***he front. You have only a few brakes trying to stop the entire train. Only as each brake sets in sequence from the locomotive back will braking power increase, thus the train gets shoved along until you get full propagation of the application.

Modern "triple valves" have a quick set feature where if you make a reduction of 5 lbs or greater and then "lap the handle", the brakes will set just enough to strech the train (on reasonable level ground) and cause each car o be able to be stpped by its own brakes. This quick set is much faster than an emergency propogation. Following that quick set application (can be done is as little as 3 seconds depending on the train size and type) and the trains brakes will set hard nearly as quickly and bring the train to a "quick service stop".

Now, a 130 car coal train will take a lot longer to set up than a 10 car passenger, and the 14,000 tons of that coal train will take a longer time and distance to deplete the kinetic energy of its forward motion, but that train will still stop a lot quicker using the "quick service stop" method than than pulling the plug.

Remember, all of the air must be exhausted out of the brake pipe in the locomotive cab, so the brakes are going to apply (propagate) one car at a time at that rate unless the engineer has activated the quick stop feature on the triple valve. Unless he has used that feature, the first car is trying to stop 14,000 tons all by itself until the second brake sets up, and then its 7000 tons per operative brake. With quick stop, you have 131 tons per operative brake almost immediately and that stops the train much faster than 14000 tons per operative brake.

I know that, simply by looking at the delay in making the applications, it would appear that the stop would take much longer to make using gradual reductions.

And one other thing I just remembered, if you make a controlled speed reduction, no matter how fast or with what poundage, and you can kick off the application before you drop below 35 MPH (rule when I was still among the rails), you can release and keep running and not have to come to a complete stop prior to making your release.
If you make an uncontrolled speed reduction, you must stop, walk the train and call out the roadmaster.

[jeaton]

Eric-

Over time I have heard many engineers speak of what can happen when a train goes into emergency. Yours is most complete that I recall.

Not to imply any question about your experience or judgement that service applications will stop a train in a shorter distance, I wonder if there has ever been any formal testing of train braking distances. Anybody got anything on that?

Jay

[kenneo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BigJim

Kenneo,
Nice job. I couldn't have explained it any better myself.

Thank you, sir. That's 28 years of picking up the pieces, reporting on the pieces and riding when things go to pieces.

[BigJim]

Kenneo,
Nice job. I couldn't have explained it any better myself.

[Glen Ellyn]

QUOTE: Originally posted by FThunder11

I've noticed that about 5-10 minutes before a train gets to a signal( at least in Trinidad, Colorado) the signal comes on, what happens if the train is originally given a clear signal, and when the train gets to the signal, the green light is burned out? Does the train have to stop, ask for permission and then proceede?

I saw this happen twice, and the trains stop, even if they are over more than 5 gradecrossings. or 6, 7, 8, 9, etc., etc., etc., !!!!!

[kenneo]

NORMALLY, a 10 lb service reduction, wait 5-10 seconds, go to 18 lb reduction, wait another 5-10 seconds, then full service application will stop a train the quickest. The original application will cause the brakes to set quickly (shoes touch wheel and provide some braking) thus streaching the train which permitts each individual cars brakes to stop just that one car and not have the train pushing those thousands of tons against it and trying to stop everything behind it as well. Then the heavier sets will actually stop the train, and usually rather quickly

If you use the emergency application, what you actually do is to cause the train to bunch and the rear end to pu***he front. Light cars at/near the point will then have a tendency to derail (pop up and come down off center), and you will then have a heap of bent box cars. If you are fortunate enough to escape that disaster, then when the brakes do set on the rear, the train will streach with a jerk and you will get a knuckle(s), a drawbar(s), pull a car(s) off center, and/or pull a car(s) off on a curve. And should you escape the second disaster, as csxengineer says, your conductor gets to walk the entire train, making sure that ALL of the wheels are on the track with the rail head supporting the wheel tread; check ALL of the couplers and drawbars to make sure none got busted or pulled; and check ALL of the truck bolster/center pin/center plates to make sure no car jumped up and came down off center.

That can take a long time.

And then the Roadmaster (Mud Chicken Man) gets called out to inspect several miles of track and so does the signal maintainer to check all bonds, jumpers and crossing signals and if the track "is lit", all of the block signals involved.

And if you did have something bad happen, out comes the TM, the RFE, the car knockers, the section crew, the investigation and the unpaid time off.

I can only speak from my own experience, but I know of no railroad management that wanted you to go into emergency. They did, however, desire you to stop as quickly as you could without getting drawbars, knuckles, going off center or derailing even one wheel. And, of course, if you don't use the emergency position, you don't have to walk the train unless you feel the need for the excercise and/or you are the only train on the line, or the dispatcher tells you to.

I have had several "weed weavels" (aka RFE or TM) tell me that management would much rather you do the "quick service stop" and hit something than put your train on the ground getting stopped. The reasoning is that there is ALMOST never something ahead of you to cause a wreck, and even if there is, you probably couldn't stop in time anyway; a quick service stop almost always is quicker and shorter than an emergency application; and about 1/2 the time, an emergency will cause a problem like those described above.

[Anonymous]

Except on the old Katy where they had a patented system that turned on a yellow signal located on a second head when a bulb out was detected on the main head. This was covered in their rules.

[Rodney Beck]

Hi group my name is Rodney and I am a student engineer on the BNSF. A dark signal has happened to me during training after passing a clear the only thing that I done is waht csxengineer done was to bring the train to a controlled stop used a lot of air. I sat 10psi waited for the brakes to take hold then set a full service to bring the train to a stop no big hole it would have been ugly. The place it happened was at the UP diamond in Rochelle not much can be done if the train is moving at track speed for the area except hang on for the ride.

Rodney
Student engineer BNSF

[jeaton]

Yes, I do understand that testing is a an important part of insuring safety compliance. As a friend once suggested, managing a railroad is no more difficult than managing a manufacturing plant 8' 4-1/2" wide by several thousand miles long.

I did know someone who liked to do road safety tests, at least in the summertime. Seems that the tracks followed the shore of a lake very suited for a quick dip. Before radios, but a public crossing a mile or so off provided just enough notice to strike a fusee, get toweled off, and get back into the suit and tie. Of course, that was back in the days dress codes for bosses.

Jay

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

As a supervisor, I can sympathize with Old Timer about tests and other duties that come with being first-level management. We have to know that the people who report to us know their jobs and perform them properly and safely.

[BigJim]

"thats not 100% true..emergancy can be used if it is nessasary"

True, IF IT IS NESSASARY! "If you can't see" Did you suddenly go blind just because you passed a blacked out signal?

[csxengineer98]

thats not 100% true..emergancy can be used if it is nessasary... like i said above...if the rail is clear of obstrucitions and you can see the rail head of you..you bring your train to a stop with good train handleing .....but if you cant see..then emergancy is nessasary....
csx engineer

[BigJim]

"I believe all the trains went into emergency and reported to dispatch for futher instructions."

"emergancy is not to be used"

Thank goodness cooler heads prevailed on this one. A normal stop is all that is required in the case of a blacked out signal. NO EMERGENCY! All you are doing then is puttting your Conductor on the ground to walk the train!

"After it came to light what had caused the engineer to make an emergency stop, the TM was shown the error of his ways"

We had some weed weasels turn off the sound to a Hot Box detector to see what the crew would do. Crew didn't stop, so they got disiplined and so did the RR because the FRA didn't cotton to having the "Safety Device" bypassed!

We've also had some weed weasels put a banner up on the wrong side of a signal, as in on a clear or an approach signal. Lost some good banners that way and someone lost a lot of weight in his rear end...Hee...Hee...Hee

[csxengineer98]

no problem... hope it what i said dose help out a little bit...its hard to explain things on a computer that inst in real time...alot of info and points can and do get lost in the time lage between posts...
csx engineer

[JoeKoh]

Csx
sorry about that. Yes the x is the dark signal.and you cant see too far beyond the signal mast because there is a curve. thanks you guys answered my question.
stay safe
Joe

[csxengineer98]

its not uncommon for managment to "give" you a bad signal to see how you comply with the rules governing train movements... but i have never heard of anyone in managment making a signal dark after you go past a clear..just to see how you would handel the train...that would be just plain crazy...not to mention if something should have gone majorly wrong.. like a derailment as a result of that... someons head would have been on a stick and it wouldnt have been the crews...now as far as say a banner test on a restriced signal or a permistion by a stop at an absoult signa...they do that all the time... managment is required by the FRA to do so many random tests like that....
csx engineer

[Puckdropper]

QUOTE:
Before you can convince me about them, you've got to convince me that all crews are always innocent and always follow the letter of the rule.

They do follow every letter of all the rules... but they get dislexia or run a few letters together when they get in a hurry!