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Hermann Goring's toy train layout

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Tuesday, November 12, 2019 3:48 PM

Found some gold here...

Four years ago on this thread 54light15 mentioned Georing's Mercedes roadster.  Well, I found a video concerning the same, plus some interesting others.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAf1fYawXNo     

Goering's yacht, still in existance...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOxR2rLFUMo  

And his WW1 airplane collection, still around as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9fH8SZEbGk  

 

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Friday, November 8, 2019 2:43 PM

Overmod
gauge is a limit on clearance width, as it was on both British standard and Brunel wide-gauge lines

Keep in mind that the K.P.St.E. (KPEV, Royal Prussian Railway) was designed in part for potential military use to the west and east, with a larger plate limits.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Friday, November 8, 2019 1:42 PM

If what I've read is true the author of the novel "The Blue Max,"  Jack D. Hunter, knew about the Goering-Rheinhard incident and used it in the novel.  However, the novel's different than the movie.  In the novel Lt. Bruno Stachel  (played by George Peppard in the movie) takes the experimental plane up first, then tells his squadron Commander Captain Heidemann it's a no-good deathtrap.  Heidemann disbelieves Stachel and is killed.  Stachel was intended by Hunter to be the lead character in a series of novels set in post-war Germany leading up to the Nazi era.

The ending of the movie's a LOT better!  I remember seeing it in 1966 and the sardonic laughter from all the men in the theater after James Mason tells George Peppard "It's all right Stachel, you can take her up now.  And let's see some REAL flying!"   

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, November 8, 2019 12:55 PM

Flintlock76
Goering flew the plane first, then Rheinhard.  While Rheinhard was pulling the plane out of a dive the top wing came off, the plane crashed and Rheinhard was killed.  So, Goering assumed command of the Richthofen group.

Anyone who remembers the "Blue Max" movie will remember a very similar incident which was a 'conspiracy of omission', as I recall to get rid of an 'inconvenient' famous individual without spoiling his memory or his propaganda value.  Not at all the same thing as the Hobey Baker conspiracy.

Gauge for the Breitspurbahn (which in German means simply 'broad-gauge [rail]road') was a nominal 3 meters, just under 10 feet.  I don't know if formal plate limits were devised, but most of the published material that has survived indicates they would be at least proportionally similar to what is practical on standard 1435mm gauge.  This aspect is considerably more important than the nominal track gauge -- railroads can build very large and effective power even for metre gauge (steam and diesel -- see Brazil or the GELSA locomotives), but can be hobbled if gauge is a limit on clearance width, as it was on both British standard and Brunel wide-gauge lines (and exported to many nations by Britain as 'the nation that invented railways')

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Posted by SALfan on Thursday, November 7, 2019 10:51 PM

jsanchez
Actually Hitler had plans for super railroads which he actually helped design, I believe they would have been built to a 10' or wider gauge and capable of hauling vast quantities of freight and people. They were supposed to help with developing the conquered terretories, Russia, Poland ,the baltic states etc. Hitler also enjoyed traveling in private railcars and signed numerous treaties and conducted many official state duties in railcars.
 

There was a good-sized article about them in TRAINS, some years ago.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Thursday, November 7, 2019 3:08 PM

So that's what it was!  Thanks!

There's a story about Goering's sense of humor from the Goebbels diary.  Goebbel's people were making a war film, and in the movie a Luftwaffe fighter pilot hooks up with a gorgeous nightclub singer and very obviously spends the night with her, leaving her apartment the next morning.

Some very upright Ober Kommando Wehrmacht  generals saw the sequence and were outraged and wanted the sequence removed.  Goebbels thought it was a good sequence and wanted it to remain, so he called up Goering to get his opinion.

Said Goering, "Well, if he doesn't  want to spend the night with a beautiful singer he can't be much of a fighter pilot!"  

That probably goes for all fighter jocks, whatever uniform they wear!

Now here's an interesting "what-if."

After Manfred von Richthofen was killed in April 1918 a Captain Wilhelm Rheinhard assumed command of the Baron's fighter group.  In July of that year both Rheinhard and Goering were invited to test fly a prototype fighter, the Dornier-Zeppelin D.1.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dornier-Zeppelin_D.I   

Goering flew the plane first, then Rheinhard.  While Rheinhard was pulling the plane out of a dive the top wing came off, the plane crashed and Rheinhard was killed.  So, Goering assumed command of the Richthofen group.

Imagine how different history might have been if it was Goering who was killed.

Years after the First World War Goering tried to get a bit of mileage claiming he and the Red Baron were close friends.  Surviving members of the group always said (privately) that wasn't true.  While von Richthofen certainly knew Goering, as he knew all the pilots in his group, Goering's claim they were good buddies was a bit of a stretch, to put it politely. 

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Thursday, November 7, 2019 2:52 PM

Flintlock76

 

 
CSSHEGEWISCH

The Reichsmarschall lost a lot of his popularity when the RAF and later the AAF started unloading on Germany.

 

 

 

"If a single enemy bomb falls on the Reich my name's not Goering!  You can call me Meier!"  

So the Germans started calling air raid sirens "Meier's Hunting Horns."

Not sure on this, but I think "Meier" was a German buffoonic comic character."

 

Actually it was an anti-Semitic piece of sarcasm.  Although Meier or Meyer was a common German family name,  some made an association with Jewish people. 

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Posted by 54light15 on Thursday, November 7, 2019 2:22 PM

One thing about Hermann is that he had somewhat of a sense of humour. When the nazis got ahold of the "Nazis dancing to Lambeth Walk" film short, Goebbels was foaming at the mouth after seeing it. Goering was amused but wisely kept it to himself. I thnk I've posted it on the Trains forum before but it is on You Tube. 

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Thursday, November 7, 2019 12:16 PM

CSSHEGEWISCH

The Reichsmarschall lost a lot of his popularity when the RAF and later the AAF started unloading on Germany.

 

"If a single enemy bomb falls on the Reich my name's not Goering!  You can call me Meier!"  

So the Germans started calling air raid sirens "Meier's Hunting Horns."

Not sure on this, but I think "Meier" was a German buffoonic comic character."

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, November 7, 2019 12:09 PM

The Reichsmarschall lost a lot of his popularity when the RAF and later the AAF started unloading on Germany.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by Flintlock76 on Thursday, November 7, 2019 11:57 AM

Amazing how this topic came back from the dead!

Goering's jolly character.  He knew it and played the role for the German public.  As he put it...

"The Fuehrer was too remote, Goebbels was too fanatic, Hess was too weird, and Himmler was too scary.  So the people clung to me!" 

OK, if you say so Herr Reichsmarschall.  You're an SOB anyway. 

One thing that rubbed Hermann the wrong way.  Veterans of Baron von Richtofen's "Flying Circus,"  which Goering ended up commanding, always said the Baron was the best leader of men they ever knew.  Goering was good, but not in the Barons league.

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Posted by kenny dorham on Thursday, November 7, 2019 9:42 AM

charlie hebdo

It should be pointed out that der Dicke Hermann  was not just a buffoon,  but a central figure in planning the Wannsse Conference where the "Final Solution" was planned in 1942.

November 9th is the 81st anniversary of Kristallnacht,  the beginning of the Holocaust. We must never forget!  Never again! 

 

Yeah, he is an odd duck.

Himmler, Hitler, Et al.  Looking at THEM, it is not hard to believe they were White Nationalist Anti Semites.

Goring was such a  "Jolly Character", it was easy to forget what a complete monster he was.

Juxtaposed was his brother Albert. He was a PRINCE oh a guy and helped many of the people that were "at risk" citizens of Nazi Germany.

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Thursday, November 7, 2019 8:45 AM

It should be pointed out that der Dicke Hermann  was not just a buffoon,  but a central figure in planning the Wannsse Conference where the "Final Solution" was planned in 1942.

November 9th is the 81st anniversary of Kristallnacht,  the beginning of the Holocaust. We must never forget!  Never again! 

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Posted by kenny dorham on Thursday, November 7, 2019 5:18 AM
A small update to this (circa 2002) interesting post about Hermann Goring and his trains.
He (as the story goes) pushed the plunger himself that zapped the demolition charges to blow up Carinhall in 1945.  Doubtful, but who knows.
Supposedly, members of his staff were allowed to take  "items"  from the house before it was demolished. There have been Stories/Pictures over the years about the later relatives of those people showing pieces of the train set.
Anyway.......two links below.
 
 
 
https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=AwrWnfQR_sNdLC4A.g4PxQt.;_ylu=X3oDMTByNWU4cGh1BGNvbG8DZ3ExBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzYw--?p=herman+G%C3%B6ring%27s+model+railway&fr=yhs-att-att_001&hspart=att&hsimp=yhs-att_001
 
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Posted by Firelock76 on Tuesday, May 12, 2015 7:19 PM

Victrola1

Contemporaneous praise for Mussolini making the trains run on time is surprisingly scarce. The New York Times makes only a single contemporaneous mention of the trains running on time. The noted theologian Reinhold Niebuhr was quoted in the New York Times ["NIEBUHR HOLDS MAN DEPENDENT ON GOD"] on December 14, 1931 "Regardless of the compliments tourists give him for running the trains on time, the rule of mussolini is the greatest outrage carried on against liberty"  

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/it-trains-ran-on-time.htm

As the first Facist dictator, Mussolini did things on a larger than O scale. 

 

Americans weren't going to praise Mussolini for making the trains run on time, the trains ran on time here in the US anyway and we didn't need a dictator to make it happen!

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Posted by da_kraut on Tuesday, May 12, 2015 12:24 PM

Here is a link to a blog post.

http://cprailmmsub.blogspot.ca/search?q=+nazi

Frank

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Posted by Deggesty on Tuesday, May 12, 2015 10:25 AM

Anonymous
American spelling "Goring". Goring committed suicide before the hangman could get him. No lost to civilization, but I wonder where the toys are now.
 

Proper American spelling is "Goering," especially if you are not able to put an umlaut over the "o." That is the way, as I recall, it was spelled in the advertisements for war bonds seventy and more years ago. I do not remember how I first pronounced it, but I was corrected.

Johnny

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Posted by Victrola1 on Tuesday, May 12, 2015 9:51 AM

Contemporaneous praise for Mussolini making the trains run on time is surprisingly scarce. The New York Times makes only a single contemporaneous mention of the trains running on time. The noted theologian Reinhold Niebuhr was quoted in the New York Times ["NIEBUHR HOLDS MAN DEPENDENT ON GOD"] on December 14, 1931 "Regardless of the compliments tourists give him for running the trains on time, the rule of mussolini is the greatest outrage carried on against liberty"  

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/it-trains-ran-on-time.htm

As the first Facist dictator, Mussolini did things on a larger than O scale. 

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Posted by DSchmitt on Sunday, May 10, 2015 7:09 PM

54light15
Speaking of Hitler's plans, there was an article in Trains maybe 20 years ago about his 3-meter gauge railroad that was in the planning stages.

Trains Magazine   August 1984  Hitler's Super Railway

 

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Posted by cacole on Sunday, May 10, 2015 2:55 PM

The 3 meter gauge railroad was part of Hitler's dream of world domination, but was never built beyond a single prototype.

Locomotives and rolling stock were proportionally larger.  One photograph I have seen within a BBC documentary about World War 2 shows a steam locomotive that towers above a conventional 4'-8.5" standard gauge loco.

Rail and roadbed would have had to be able to handle the excess weight, too.

 

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Posted by Firelock76 on Sunday, May 10, 2015 1:54 PM

That sure looks like Franz von Papen with Goering to me.

I too recall reading (somewhere) about Hitler's interest in a three-meter gauge railway.  Just how practical that would have been is a mystery to me, but then Hitler liked big stuff anyway, those two 31" bore cannons "Gustav" and "Dora" used on the Russian Front were built on his instigation.  In the end they did perform well but were just too big and impractical to use.

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Posted by Wizlish on Sunday, May 10, 2015 11:36 AM

54light15
I sure remember a picture of Goering, where I saw it I don't recall but he's wearing lederhosen, standing above the tracks of what looks like an O-gauge layout at Karinhall and passing under him was a Swiss Crocodile locomotive.

(This was in the linked material from the Goering-Maerklin page.)

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Posted by 54light15 on Sunday, May 10, 2015 11:07 AM

I've heard that the late Ronald Reagan was a model railroader. Didn't MR have an article about Rod Stewart's HO layout not long ago? Speaking of Hitler's plans, there was an article in Trains maybe 20 years ago about his 3-meter gauge railroad that was in the planning stages. I recall the admiring tone the author of the article had. I sure remember a picture of Goering, where I saw it I don't recall but he's wearing lederhosen, standing above the tracks of what looks like an O-gauge layout at Karinhall and passing under him was a Swiss Crocodile locomotive.

This may be of interest. At the Meadowbrook classic car show in Michigan a few years ago was Hermann's armour plated Mercedes 540K roadster. Painted light blue metallic, in excellent shape except for a bullet mark on a one inch-thick door window. The car was captured by the 101st Airborne at Berchtesgaden and obviously someone pulled out a 45 and said, "We'll see about that armour plating!" Numerals of the 101st were stencilled on the bumper as the C.O. of the division used the car himself. It also has one of those convoy lights in front that looks sort of like a German helmet.  I'd like to own a supercharged Mercedes roadster from the 1930s, just not that one.

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Posted by DSchmitt on Sunday, May 10, 2015 10:37 AM

This thread peaked my interest so I did a search on the Axis History Forum.  Found link to this:

http://www.bills-bunker.de/113101.html

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Posted by Firelock76 on Sunday, May 10, 2015 10:01 AM

I'm a bit late to the party here, however considering we've just commemorated the 70th anniversary of VE Day, and a big THANK YOU to all reading this who were there and made it happen, here goes...

It's too bad Goering didn't get Adolf interested in toy train collecting, who knows how things would have turned out?  But Adolf wanted to collect countries, so what are you gonna do?

Goering told a story about himself to the US Army interrogators during the Nuremberg trial.  Considering who it came from, take it for what it's worth.

"In the early Twenties I was going to join the Masons.  The night I was going to the Masons meeting I had a few hours to kill so I went to a local bar.  Well, there was a hot blonde in there, I picked her up, and we spent the evening together.  Needless to say I missed the meeting."

"The next night I went to hear Hitler speak.  I was very impressed and decided to join the Nazi party.  So when you come down to it the reason I'm here is because of a hot blonde!"

Yeah, right.

 

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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, June 2, 2002 12:23 AM
As I understand it, Goring's trains were Maerklin. Also, Adolph Galland was described in a biography of Douglas Bader (Reach for the Sky, by Paul Brickall) as also having model trains, "but my set isn't as big as his".
Goring was once a very strong-willed person (he was once called "der eiserne" (The iron one), but as he got deeper into WWII his will and personality degenerated under the stresses of his job, and his failures of command. He was always totally under the control of Der Fuehrer, to the point where he could no longer make the right decisions, as Galland points out. It is a nice question whether his interest in model trains was a result of his degeneration, or a symptom of it; also it would be interesting to know just when he started to collect them. It is not likely that it was earlier then the 1930s.
As any biography shows, there was a lot more to Goring then the crimes that were laid at his door. His biographies invariably touch only briefly on his career in WWI [infantry officer, then ace fighter pilot, cumulating in command of JGI (the Richthofen Jadgeschwader)], and hurry on to his meeting with Hitler and involvement with him.
Another point: Goring isn't the only celebrity who was a model railroader...merely the most infamous one. Many prominent people in the performing arts have been model railroaders, though they don't make a big thing of it. Most have been mentioned in Model Railroader at one time or another. A doubtless partial list: Vaughn Monroe, Yul Brynner, Bobby Darin, Frank Sinatra, Artie Shaw, and [hockey coach] Scotty Bowman. The last three were/are Lionel collectors; the first three were model builders.
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Posted by CHESSIEMIKE on Sunday, May 26, 2002 9:31 PM
Still waiting for a scan!
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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, May 10, 2002 11:29 AM
THANK YOU.....

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