When pumped storage fails, it can be pretty spectacular. This one failed and scoured a dense hillside forest down to the bedrock.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taum_Sauk_Hydroelectric_Power_Station
Yup, the Storm King Mountain pumped storage plant was a real idea. It was, thankfully, defeated.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storm_King_Mountain_(New_York)#History
tree68Some time back I read of a plan to put a large reservoir at a point along the Hudson River.
This was the Storm King Mountain plant that got rejected. Pumped storage is a great tool for offsetting the variation in energy use during the day. Utilities have a mix of generation and if they have a typical city load, they like a mix of baseload units like nuclear that have a high capitol cost but a low fuel cost that can run flat out 24 hrs a day, swing plants that can track load variations but have a lower capitol cost and medium fuel cost, and peaker units that have low capitol cost but typically high fuel costs (frequently gas turbines). Pumped storage compliments the nuclear units as their "fuel" is off peak (late night) electicicity. They fill the reservoir between midnight and dawn, then wait until the load grows and then generates during the peak. Charging batteries is one alternative but the life cycle can be an issue. Think of your car's battery life.
Read about E. Musk's 100 MW battery plant for Austrailia.
https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/1/16723186/elon-musk-battery-launched-south-australia
tdmidget A "surplus" of renewable energy? "splain that.
It's why "stored energy" is an important consideration.
Some time back I read of a plan to put a large reservoir at a point along the Hudson River. During times of high energy availability (ie, the morning solar already mentioned), water would be pumped uphill into the reservoir. At times of high load with low supply (evenings), the water would flow back down through turbines to help cover the load requirements.
Many hydro-electric installations operate just so, albeit with the natural flow of the waterway they are using. Along about 4 PM each day, river users must be aware (usually due to signs posted) that the waters downstream will rise considerably.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tdmidget What? A "surplus" of renewable energy? "splain that.
What? A "surplus" of renewable energy? "splain that.
Just search for CalISO Solar Duck.
The heart of the problem with solar in California is that peak generation takes place about noon, while peak demand takes place about 7PM. The rise in the demand curve starts somewhere around noon, so there will be an effective "surplus" late morning. The powers that be are starting to wise up a bit and now are encouraging west facing PV installations to push the solar peak later into the day.
Given the above, it makes great sense for utilities to provide incentives for smart demand, i.e. a load that can be ramped up and shut down in response to erratic renewable generation to smooth out the load on conventional generation. Things get even better when the electric cars are capable of feeding power back to the grid.
On a related note, probably the main reason that Musk arranged for the sale of Solar City to Tesla, was that he was aware that the PV market was going to grind to a halt without some sort of energy storage (e.g. PowerWall). Almost all of the grid tied PV installations use the grid as a battery, which is not a problem when PV is a few percent of total demand, but becomes a big problem much above 10 percent.
Getting the best of demand control versus renewable generation will require accurate weather forecasts. Current forecasts aren't too bad, but getting even better accuracy would be worth serious money. A flip side is the ISO's could tell the various renewable generation entities that they need to bid 24 hours in advance and pay penalties for undersupply or oversupply from their bid.
FWIW, I am not a renewable energy fan and agree with comments from you Overmod and others about renewables are not a panacea. I also think that if CO2 is a serious problem, then nuclear has to be part of the generation mix.
BaltACD Euclid Renewables may be pie in the sky, or they may intentionally not really be the abundance of cheap energy that they are represented to be. What they surely are is the road to conservation. They take that road because they will not be cheaper than present energy production. We are on the road to eye-popping electric bills, and the only remedy is to use less. Intense conservation is after all, the very embodiment of "sustainability" that is constantly cited in any advocacy of green energy. However, in the real world we are the the point of a conumdrum. If we reduce consumption the demand decreases and one of two things happen - initially the oversupply decreases prices. If the lack of demand continues, production then decreases to the point where price and demand become steady. How green can you afford to be.
Euclid Renewables may be pie in the sky, or they may intentionally not really be the abundance of cheap energy that they are represented to be. What they surely are is the road to conservation. They take that road because they will not be cheaper than present energy production. We are on the road to eye-popping electric bills, and the only remedy is to use less. Intense conservation is after all, the very embodiment of "sustainability" that is constantly cited in any advocacy of green energy.
However, in the real world we are the the point of a conumdrum. If we reduce consumption the demand decreases and one of two things happen - initially the oversupply decreases prices. If the lack of demand continues, production then decreases to the point where price and demand become steady.
How green can you afford to be.
Oh I am sure they will price it completely out of reach of everyone. Then we will carry energy insurance to cover the cost of emergencies such as the need to turn on a light.
Real world experiance talking here when it comes to dealing with weight on truck as I see the BOL's all day long from my drivers aka my work kids daily and also know what our trucks weigh in at and what our customers demand we be able to haul. If this Electric truck weighs in at anything over 20K lbs with the battery installed forget it. We will not lease a truck on here that weighs more than that for our van fleet at all. We also will not lease a tanker pulling trailer that weighs in at more than 19K lbs. He is going have to have one hell of a battery pack in that thing to get the range he is promising in all weather types if it fails then he will end up in court. Why JB Hunt Walmart will take him to court for breach of contract and laugh all the way to the bank. They are going to want 500 miles of range at 80K lbs going thru the Rockies in winter at -20 good luck.
EuclidRenewables may be pie in the sky, or they may intentionally not really be the abundance of cheap energy that they are represented to be. What they surely are is the road to conservation. They take that road because they will not be cheaper than present energy production. We are on the road to eye-popping electric bills, and the only remedy is to use less. Intense conservation is after all, the very embodiment of "sustainability" that is constantly cited in any advocacy of green energy.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Renewables may be pie in the sky, or they may intentionally not really be the abundance of cheap energy that they are represented to be. What they surely are is the road to conservation. They take that road because they will not be cheaper than present energy production. We are on the road to eye-popping electric bills, and the only remedy is to use less. Intense conservation is after all, the very embodiment of "sustainability" that is constantly cited in any advocacy of green energy.
tdmidgetWShat? A "surplus" of renewable energy? "splain that.
It's obvious from his context. It's the times of day at which there is 'more' renewable-sourced electricity than needed to satisfy demand ... high-wind or bright-sun days. It has nothing to do either with changes in necessary baseline or with any demand at times other than those corresponding to 'peak renewable generation'.
The day you can't get to work because the wind did not blow last night represents the day you realize you're an idiot for not buying a vehicle with an independent self-contained charging system. Or you realize your utility is staffed by politically-chosen millenials too stupid to incorporate energy storage into the distribution grid. (Or you fire up peaking or distributed resources to satisfy core demand for transportation charging, with 'smart shedding' of vanity loads via better smart meters, etc., but no need to digress into those technologies yet...)
I tend to agree with you that excessive reliance on renewables for baseline load is dumb. I've been watching the politically-driven German 'no-nukes while reducing carbon emissions' business very carefully, as if there are problems of almost any of the predicted sort they will either show up there or solutions to them will become perhaps painfully evident, both long before we see any practical effect here. (As recently as 3 weeks ago, I was treated to a long presentation from our local utility and TVA, describing the 'green credits' system for renewable surplus generation -- it's silly and doesn't matter in any practical economic sense I could see. So don't expect new-renewable capacity to become a significant public-private initiative priority very much longer. I'm sad about that, but at the same time it demonstrates the need for adult alternatives in new power sourcing and administration.
What? A "surplus" of renewable energy? "splain that. Will it come from all those solar cells at night? If subsidies go away at least half of that will go away. Every coal plant, every nuke that closes is a major step toward a shortage, not a surplus. Our electrical distribution system was built on reliability and availability.
Pie in the sky "renewables" are the antithesis of our system. Your electric car won't amount to a hill of crap with out a RELIABLE charge. The day you can't get to work because the wind did not blow last night might open your eyes.
CSSHEGEWISCH It will also be interesting to see what happens after those who have installed re-charging stations in their garage receive their electric bills.
It will also be interesting to see what happens after those who have installed re-charging stations in their garage receive their electric bills.
May not be too bad - with time of day metering, recharging during base load hours can get a substantial reduction in cost of electricity. Further "smart grid" approach is charging when there is a surplus of renewable electricity, as the power companies would be willing to sell juice at a very low rate.
I go along with the general theme of Bucky's post. Ferdinand de Lesseps (who was NOT an engineer) had the same belief in regard to his project to dig a sea-level Panama Canal and felt let down when French engineering couldn't achieve that goal.
Yes these dreams of fantastic solutions through technology are part of the sustainability movement or green movement. They believe that all you have to do is dream of an objective and it can be made to happen. So if a breakthrough in battery capacity is needed, we will simply apply the scientific research and make it happen. The conclusion is that if battery capacity state of the art is not enough for a new dream, it is only because nobody has wanted or needed more battery capacity until now. I am surprised that Elon Musk is not inventing perpetual motion based energy. It certainly would be handy.
Quite a bit of research, including at Tesla for their priority Supercharger network, has involved effective real-time charging. If the battery array is properly switched and cooled, it can be charged 'in parallel' at a much higher net amperage rate; if there are large numbers of 'available' (meaning properly scheduled access) charge points, the "correct" strategy of charge at around 20% up to around 80% can be used, which minimizes time and maximizes life ... for the corresponding weight penalty in pure BEV operation.
Of course, in a hybrid you could 'finish charge' the battery if desired for extended BEV range upon arrival at a battery-only AQMD, or use a tap from continuous guideway power, remembering that some of that 20% represents the 'bank' for regenerative braking.
Absent large rental fleets for long-distance service, which were unworkable in '70s PRT and perhaps even more so now, the fundamental assumption with all the 'Uber-centric' models is that they feed into workable regional and national networks of 'mass transit'. There have always been car services catering to one-way and round-trip distances for people who don't like driving long distances to get to end destinations not served by transit, and I expect that segment to flourish as true autonomous vehicles begin to be introduced. But the default is better regional 'ports' of origin and destination; a good partial example is seen in the choices of origin/destination pairs for Zunum, vs. feeder air for large commercial aviation.
Jeff --" I'm beginning (actually have thought for a long time) that the people predicting these things believe people only live in large urban areas. Or maybe they think the urban populations are the only ones that matter in the future."
Quite true, we are officially deemed as "unsustainable" here in the North, with a few exceptions. Situation is even worse in Ontario.
CSSHEGEWISCH Charging times seem to be an issue that everybody is dancing around and never actually answering. The current range of my own car is 275-320 miles on a full tank of gasoline. It takes about 10 minutes to refill the tank, which is not a major issue if I'm on the road. Recharging a battery with similar range will take appreciably longer than that, meaning that most electric vehicles are limited to local use. It will also be interesting to see what happens after those who have installed re-charging stations in their garage receive their electric bills.
Charging times seem to be an issue that everybody is dancing around and never actually answering. The current range of my own car is 275-320 miles on a full tank of gasoline. It takes about 10 minutes to refill the tank, which is not a major issue if I'm on the road. Recharging a battery with similar range will take appreciably longer than that, meaning that most electric vehicles are limited to local use.
All electric vehicles, self-driving cars, the idea that people will no longer own cars but call Uber or other type services for their needs, etc. I'm beginning (actually have thought for a long time) that the people predicting these things believe people only live in large urban areas. Or maybe they think the urban populations are the only ones that matter in the future.
Jeff
rdamon Perhaps they could use a common modular battery design that can be swapped for a fully charged unit at a truck stop or roadside in an emergency.
Perhaps they could use a common modular battery design that can be swapped for a fully charged unit at a truck stop or roadside in an emergency.
The array weighs more than 18,000lb ... for local range. Until practical battery energy-storage density gets better ... which it will, but with potentially showstopping safety drawbacks for truck use ... expect OTR tractor arrays to be heavier.
An infrastructure to do this kind of swap can be done, of course; I've designed several variants for patent. But much of the presumed 'big savings' for BEV-only heavy trucks go away net of the costs, trade offs, and potential liability exposure involved.
CSSHEGEWISCHIt will also be interesting to see what happens after those who have installed re-charging stations in their garage receive their electric bills.
Indeed it has been... but sensible people compare their electricity bill to their gasoline bill and, for all modern BEVs or plug-ins, the result is highly 'net positive' - in favor of the superior economy inherent in the electricity-fairy cycle. An unintended consequence Musk has chosen to deprecate (I think to his ultimate despair) is that capex to handle the predictable transportation demand will have to be larger than cutbacks in utilization elsewhere... I see the seeds of this in a number of otherwise-unrelated places.
The old story about straight electric heat being massively expensive referred to resistance heating, something only an idiot or massive first-cost cutter would use. It is somewhat applicable to poorly designed heat pumps with reversing-valve compromise in achievable COP and lousy source/sink efficiencies right at the normal climatic extremes their operation is most expected ... the answer on the 'cold' end usually being gas or propane/LPG dual fuel. The right answer is ground-source heat pumps, which incidentally are all-electric even when run on distributed power.
As noted before, the markets for true straight-electric trucks really mirror those for straight BEVs: highly local operations on plannable schedules with comparatively little allowance for unanticipated delays or changes. The very extensive work in hybrid trucks by less wacky companies clearly trends the other way, even in the extreme case where the combustion device is only sized for emergency limp-home; as noted, very, very few O/Os are likely to buy a Class 8 with straight electric, and about the only use larger fleet users would have, other than local ops in air-quality-management districts, would be for 'green' publicity or the dubious long-term benefits of government-supported rebates or subsidies... which I expect will go the way of the dodo when the effective take rate or cumulative consequences get significant.
The great BMW lesson on practical fuel-cell use should be remembered in this context: the first best use of the technology is to run all the auxiliaries, and by extension a unit sized for 'non-idling' truck amenities would double quite nicely as an emergency range extender.
CSSHEGEWISCH--Thanks, finally a posting that makes sense. Anyone using electric furnace or baseboard heat at home is paying through the nose in winter.
May I add how are you going to defrost windows and provide heat in -30,-40. Seperate gas heater like in the old VW's?
Allowing a single rider in a Hybrid/EV in the HOV lanes in CA has helped sales along with the new $0.12/Gallon gas tax.
JoeBlow The story of the EV frenzy is the story of Elon Musk. If you don’t believe me then look at the other EV startups (Faraday, Lucid) or the mainstream competition (Chevy Bolt, Nissan Leaf).
The story of the EV frenzy is the story of Elon Musk. If you don’t believe me then look at the other EV startups (Faraday, Lucid) or the mainstream competition (Chevy Bolt, Nissan Leaf).
The funny thing is that Chevy has sold a lot more Bolts to customers than Tesla has with thier Model 3. It will be a few months before the sales of the Model 3 catch up with the Bolt.
The much maligned ICE car succeeded because it was more user friendly than the established standards of the day (train, horse and foot).
In the first decade of the 20th century, it wasn't clear whether the ICE was going to be the standard power source for cars. The big advantage of the ICE powered car was the quickness in refueling versus recharging. It also helped that petroleum was widely available and cheap.
Electric cars are still pretty much niche vehicles, but the likes of the Bolt and Model 3 with 200+ mile range make for a much larger niche than a car good for 60 to 80 miles. The most extreme of a small niche in electric cars was the electric Scion IQ with about a 40 mile range - good for getting to work from the train station. OTOH, it could be fully recharged in about 7-8 hours from a 120V/15A outlet.
I hear all of this talk that the electric vehicle is poised to take over world but I don't see it.
EV sales plummet when tax subsidies are cut. Look at what happened in Hong Kong and Georgia after tax payer funded subsidies were cut.
I work with a lot of millennials and every one of them (7 total) who has bought a new car in the past few years has chosen an ICE (Internal Combustion) car. This is the next generation of car buyers and purchasing managers.
Finally, trucking is an industry largely made up of owner operators chasing business in always changing geographic locals. Each driver a business of one who wants to get the most return on their investment. Remember, this is an industry that transitioned from employees (company drivers) to contractors (owner operators) decades before it became popular.
If there was such a demand for EVs would subsidies matter? Would not every millennial be desperately seeking an electric or hybrid car regardless of make? If I am an owner operator, do I want to invest in a technology that is still not as good as the established standard?
The story of the EV frenzy is the story of Elon Musk. If you don’t believe me then look at the other EV startups (Faraday, Lucid) or the mainstream competition (Chevy Bolt, Nissan Leaf). Want further proof? At the end of the Tesla truck/roadster rollout everyone was fawning over the roadster and ignoring the trucks.
By the way, I live in Los Angeles, a city considered one of the trendsetting centers of the world.
SD70M-2DudeThe nation is already $20 Trillion in the hole, why not make it $40 Trillion. How much is too much, and where does it end (if anywhere)? The view from Canada keeps getting bleaker and bleaker.
It is finally starting to turn the corner. Quanitative Easing finally being unraveled and undone. The recent rise in interest rates savings are becomming more attractive again and real money will start to be made by large banks with loan portfolios, the Economy is getting back to normal finally.
If they can maintain a growth strategy above 3% for at least 3-4 years, lower the trade deficits without hugely impacting the national debt.........debt will start to shrink relative to GDP.
Time will tell if all those IF's fall into place. It's a LOT for the Feds to balance.
BaltACD But then the question becomes, how many subsidies can our taxes afford - along with all the other things our taxes must support for the USA to be a world power?
But then the question becomes, how many subsidies can our taxes afford - along with all the other things our taxes must support for the USA to be a world power?
The nation is already $20 Trillion in the hole, why not make it $40 Trillion. How much is too much, and where does it end (if anywhere)?
The view from Canada keeps getting bleaker and bleaker.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Euclid BaltACD Analysts doubt Tesla’s claim that its Semi would be a rail killer Trains (Online) By Bill Stephens November 21, 2017 In the absence of details about the trucks, the purchase reservations are more symbolic than anything else, Gross says. Any company that is among Tesla Semi’s first customers will be seen as being technologically advanced and green, he says. Being green and sustainable would be enough if the government were to subsidize those attributes.
Analysts doubt Tesla’s claim that its Semi would be a rail killer Trains (Online) By Bill Stephens November 21, 2017 In the absence of details about the trucks, the purchase reservations are more symbolic than anything else, Gross says. Any company that is among Tesla Semi’s first customers will be seen as being technologically advanced and green, he says.
Analysts doubt Tesla’s claim that its Semi would be a rail killer
Trains (Online)
November 21, 2017 In the absence of details about the trucks, the purchase reservations are more symbolic than anything else, Gross says. Any company that is among Tesla Semi’s first customers will be seen as being technologically advanced and green, he says.
November 21, 2017
In the absence of details about the trucks, the purchase reservations are more symbolic than anything else, Gross says. Any company that is among Tesla Semi’s first customers will be seen as being technologically advanced and green, he says.
Being green and sustainable would be enough if the government were to subsidize those attributes.
Of course we have seen how governmental subsidy has affected railroads over they centuries - the subsidies of highways, the subsidies of air line, terminals and traffic control. Without the governments 'heavy lifting' in subsidies neither industry would have become what we recognize today. But then the question becomes, how many subsidies can our taxes afford - along with all the other things our taxes must support for the USA to be a world power?
BaltACD Analysts doubt Tesla’s claim that its Semi would be a rail killer Trains (Online) By Bill Stephens November 21, 2017 In the absence of details about the trucks, the purchase reservations are more symbolic than anything else, Gross says. Any company that is among Tesla Semi’s first customers will be seen as being technologically advanced and green, he says.
By Bill Stephens November 21, 2017 In the absence of details about the trucks, the purchase reservations are more symbolic than anything else, Gross says. Any company that is among Tesla Semi’s first customers will be seen as being technologically advanced and green, he says.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.