I got stopped by a train again- darned the luck. This one was moseying through downtown and making everybody antsy. I could see what the holdup was. The train was laying out long pieces of continuous rail, maybe ¼ mile long? Before too long I imagine that I’ll get to see a rail replacement crew come through town. As the rails pass through my end of town, there are some busy streets crossing at various places. As I measure it, the distance between crossings is 4000’, 3000’, 7500’ and 900’. That’s in addition to where the tracks run into the yard downtown. Do the welded rails typically run on through crossings, or are they spliced on each side of the crossing? When the rails start to go down, would they be potentially blocking several crossings at once? How long would the common timeframe be to replace a section of track?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
The crew isn't going to lay rail across a crossing blocking traffic from using it.
The rail gang will cut the rail.
The rail could lay on the ground for months before they actually replace it and then the old rail could lay for a few years before they pick it up.
Depending on the type of crossing will depend if they change the rail through the roadway. If it's just a plank crossing they'll pull the planks and change the rail. If it's more complex they will leave the rails through the crossing and change the whole crossing out with panel track at a later date.
10000 feet and no dynamics? Today is going to be a good day ...
Depending on signal systems, there may gaps in the rail at each crossing for island circuits, and gaps for signals, as well.
I would suppose that they might back up and leave a full stick so it doesn't block the road, or even pass it. In that case, they'd drag it back to where they need it.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
When the CSX laid down the new rail for a replacement project they simply cut a narrow trench through the asphalt roadway surface laid the rail in it through the crossing and then filled the trench with gravel. It stayed that way till the big track crews came through several months later. They then asked the town public works department to fill and patch the trenches. In my years as Matthews Public Works Director we always had a good relationship with the CSX track folks. Back scratching went both ways. They helped me a few times as I did them. Can't say the same for their folks higher up the food chain.
Penn Central followed a similar procedure when they laid CWR on the South Chicago & Southern line through Hegewisch. A shallow trench was cut alongside the tracks through the roadway, the rail was laid in it and a soft asphalt patch was laid over the rail. The rail crew came through a few weeks later and installed one rail on one day and the second rail a few days later.
CSSHEGEWISCH Penn Central followed a similar procedure when they laid CWR on the South Chicago & Southern line through Hegewisch. A shallow trench was cut alongside the tracks through the roadway, the rail was laid in it and a soft asphalt patch was laid over the rail. The rail crew came through a few weeks later and installed one rail on one day and the second rail a few days later.
samfp1943Similarly, around here, the same practice is followed on the 'smaller' road/rail crossings. trenches are cut off the crossings to allow the CWR to be laid and later placed. It is the multi-lane crossings where they will drop the CWR is 'pulled back' to be placed at the crossing. At least that is what the Herzog rail gang did when they replaced rail south of Wichita, last time[about 18 months back+-(?)] . Over on the OKT sub to the West they followed similar prctices, the same summer they did a major track up-grade on that line. Did not see that operation in progress, only the results after they had moved on. Such practice seems to be the 'current, best practice' in MOW?
Sam,
I've not seen that done around here when following CN MOW crews. So that begs the question if that is only done at 'unprotected' (crossbucks only) crossings. Protected crossings need an isolated 'island' circuit as well as approach circuits in the system I am familiar with; CN's. The standard practice seems to be to replace the crossing (install a new track panel) prior to the CWR gang showing up to install the latter. Someone will follow the CWR gang and install insulated joints for the approach circuits where and if necessary.
That said, CN, and I presume other railroads use grade crossing prediction hardware and software so I don't know if insulated joints are necessary to support that.
I knew a [now retired] track foreman who did fill me in on lots of things but if he told me the requirements for the above they are long since forgotten.
Norm
Norm48327 samfp1943 Similarly, around here, the same practice is followed on the 'smaller' road/rail crossings. trenches are cut off the crossings to allow the CWR to be laid and later placed. It is the multi-lane crossings where they will drop the CWR is 'pulled back' to be placed at the crossing. At least that is what the Herzog rail gang did when they replaced rail south of Wichita, last time[about 18 months back+-(?)] . Over on the OKT sub to the West they followed similar prctices, the same summer they did a major track up-grade on that line. Did not see that operation in progress, only the results after they had moved on. Such practice seems to be the 'current, best practice' in MOW? Sam, I've not seen that done around here when following CN MOW crews. So that begs the question if that is only done at 'unprotected' (crossbucks only) crossings. Protected crossings need an isolated 'island' circuit as well as approach circuits in the system I am familiar with; CN's. The standard practice seems to be to replace the crossing (install a new track panel) prior to the CWR gang showing up to install the latter. Someone will follow the CWR gang and install insulated joints for the approach circuits where and if necessary. That said, CN, and I presume other railroads use grade crossing prediction hardware and software so I don't know if insulated joints are necessary to support that. I knew a [now retired] track foreman who did fill me in on lots of things but if he told me the requirements for the above they are long since forgotten.
samfp1943 Similarly, around here, the same practice is followed on the 'smaller' road/rail crossings. trenches are cut off the crossings to allow the CWR to be laid and later placed. It is the multi-lane crossings where they will drop the CWR is 'pulled back' to be placed at the crossing. At least that is what the Herzog rail gang did when they replaced rail south of Wichita, last time[about 18 months back+-(?)] . Over on the OKT sub to the West they followed similar prctices, the same summer they did a major track up-grade on that line. Did not see that operation in progress, only the results after they had moved on. Such practice seems to be the 'current, best practice' in MOW?
BNSF tends to use 'contractors' for alot their MOW activities: Herzog for their CWR rail trains, and that expertise. Herzog. as well, with their MPM train; and for their ultra-sound rail testing. Another contractor's truck seems to be used for welding CWR( name escapes me right now). About the only time that BNSF track maint gangs show up around here is for heavy tie replacement ops, and all their MOW 'critters' to place,install CWR, line it up, and move on to another area.( gets pretty impressive to watch!). LORAM comes through for railgrinding,{spectacular at night when they make a big grinding pass}, and Herzog's automated ballast trains are pretty interesting.
Sam:
Usually, for the railroads in your area, the rail train dropping the 1440 ft rail from the CWP in Pueblo will skip the crossing. Digging into the road surface requires too long to close the crossing ahead of the rail train to dig it out. The "gap" will be some multiple of 80 feet.
Somewhere further down the road you will see a track panel (again some multiple of 80 feet) built near the crossing. Then you will see the road closed from 36-96 hours, old track and fouled ballast removed and then the panel dropped-in and resurfaced to match the surrounding track, then a new crossing surface placed and the road re-opened on new ties rail and ballast. Ties fail under a road crossing faster than just about anywhere else.
[Before the so-called "experts" jump in - anybody thinking you should be renewing crossings half at a time while maintaining automobile traffic should have their heads examined. It's inefficient, dangerous and results in an uneven surface over the crossing.]
Conrail and PC got their butts in trouble multiple times for burying brand-new rail. (Not a good move to bury new rail in the first place)
Where the continuous rail ties into existing crossing rails, is it usually welded, or just bolted together?
Around here it is bolted first then they come around and thermite weld the joints. It gets really interseting around here when they are running 6 teams all doing welds at once.
deleted, posted on wrong thread
If the crossing works out to be in the middle of a 1440' piece of welded track, I presume they splice it there and push the other half up the pike for the next piece. Somebody must do a bit of planning to make sure the right amount of rail is in approximately the right place at the right time. Are bad ties generally replace at the same time as the rail, or is that a different job for a different crew at a different time? Why the magic number of 1440 feet for a length of rail?
They just angle-bar joint the connections between the new and the old rail. Later, after the new panel is dropped-in and surfaced, the joints are removed and then replaced with thermite/boutet welds.
Murphy Siding Where the continuous rail ties into existing crossing rails, is it usually welded, or just bolted together?
Murphy Siding If the crossing works out to be in the middle of a 1440' piece of welded track, I presume they splice it there and push the other half up the pike for the next piece. Somebody must do a bit of planning to make sure the right amount of rail is in approximately the right place at the right time. Are bad ties generally replace at the same time as the rail, or is that a different job for a different crew at a different time? Why the magic number of 1440 feet for a length of rail?
(1) Never-ever put a joint in the crossing (maintenance headache).....Mr. Torch is always on standby on the threader cars during unloading along with extra caboose chains and "stabber" chains for tying off the rail, pulling the rail out of the racks and tying together adjoining strings coming out of the racks.
(2) Bad ties replaced with the new track panel. Crossings cause havoc and delay with a conventional tie gang.
(3) PDN will jump in here on the 1440' routine, but it is a happy medium of what friction can be overcome loading/unloading the rails, what the power threaders can handle,what the threader car winches can handle and what you got from the mill (not always 39' blanks). Most railroads also have "mini rail trains" out there with 660 foot strings being unloaded for smaller projects.
The roadmaster knows what's coming. The local track forces have been lined-up well in advance as the where the rail is dumped, with allowances made for bridges, crossings, tight clearance work zones, etc.
Roadmasters have to put up with all the whining and complaining about slow trains an blocked crossings with rail trains. (Got plenty of experience with that in Los Angeles in the 90's - also got "arrested" along with my UP counterpart for replacing side by side grade crossings on Washington Blvd even after we had the appropriate permits, traffic control and other permissions.)
MC,
It took it a while to sink in (I sometimes have a 'thick skull') but what my track foreman friend told me eventually made sense. Crossings are subject to a constant pounding from heavy trucks and in northern climes get salted in winter. That 'splains' frequent replacement of them. I can think of one such crossing in particular next to an asphalt plant that receives constant pounding from the trucks going in and out. It gets replaced about every five years or so. What I wasn't aware of is the fact the wood ties are the weak point in crossings. I'm certain that in northern climes road salt has a major effect on them.
Salt takes a poor second to the impact damage on the planks and rail. If the highway bubbas screw up the the approach grades, the damage gets worse and MUCH faster. If there is a traditional cut spike type crossing being taken out near you, take a good look at the base of the rail coming out. Should be scalloped and look like H-E-Doublehockeysticks (er-um CRAP)
And without fail, those rubber tired clowns direct the surface drainage sheet flow into the crossing, using the flangeways as a pseudo chase / slotted drain. Along with water, you get mud, crud, and prematurely fouled ballast.
From what I've read about welding the CWR in field, I got the impression that they were not that common and perhaps rather expensive. Now you tell me they do them at crossings? They must be more common and less expensive than I had imagined.
Field welding of CWR is quite routine, although by the very nature of CWR fewer joints are required. As well as at crossings, field welding is also done to connect the strings.
As mentioned earlier, usually a bolted joint bar is used when the rail is installed. Later in the year another team comes by to replace the joints with a weld.
At an insulated joint a short piece of rail each side of the joint will be cut out, and a factory-assembled insulated unit (about 10' long?) will be welded in its place, requiring of course two welds. The wires for the signal system often are welded to the rail using much the same thermite process.
The thermite gang is very much smaller, and easily overlooked, compared with a rail gang.
When my boss designed all his crossovers for the SIT tracks he used a 2 inch gap over the tracks and the top of the crossing we use is 2 inches taller than the tracks themselves. He asked both the BNSF and NS what was the maximum height above the tracks he could go and not foul their locomotives pilots and also what clearences they needed by the rails themselves for our crossings in the yards. In the 10 years he has been doing this not one of the rails in a crossing has had to be replaced we actually had a broken rail found in an inspection last week on a 2 year old rail. BNSF is working with us on when they can come in and replace the section.
Murphy Siding From what I've read about welding the CWR in field, I got the impression that they were not that common and perhaps rather expensive.
They make field kits for individual Thermite welds to simplify the work — welds still have to be ground on railhead surfaces but I see that done with a gas-engined tool that probably does many between the times it needs repairs. A flash-butt welder probably has better weld quality but needs the appropriate power source and more skill to use. There is some judgment required in cutting to the right length for neutral temperature but i don’t think that adds too much to the cost per weld.
cx500At an insulated joint a short piece of rail each side of the joint will be cut out, and a factory-assembled insulated unit (about 10' long?) will be welded in its place, requiring of course two welds. The wires for the signal system often are welded to the rail using much the same thermite process.
The factory assembled joints are made with very good materials (high strength insulation and pressure applied epoxy) and are as strong as the rail, unlike the old joints made with fiber sleeves for the bolts and molded fiber sheet material between the rail and joint bars. The old insulated joints were a high maintenance item. As they wore, you would get joints where the ballast would get fouled and pumping would occur and so wear out it even faster. Back in the late fifties, when I worked with a signal and communications maintainer, we would have to drill the bolt holee and wire holes with hand drills. Rails are hard. And drill bits dull quickly on it. Welded joints are so superior to what used to be.
Shadow the Cats owner When my boss designed all his crossovers for the SIT tracks he used a 2 inch gap over the tracks and the top of the crossing we use is 2 inches taller than the tracks themselves. He asked both the BNSF and NS what was the maximum height above the tracks he could go and not foul their locomotives pilots and also what clearences they needed by the rails themselves for our crossings in the yards. In the 10 years he has been doing this not one of the rails in a crossing has had to be replaced we actually had a broken rail found in an inspection last week on a 2 year old rail. BNSF is working with us on when they can come in and replace the section.
A boutet charge tpically runs about $1400 these days. The big kicker is if you have a railroad welder qualified to do the work. Most shortlines do not. Most Cls 1 trackmen are not. (you do not want someone unqualified handling or performing the work. Things can go tragically wrong if you don't know your stuff.)
If the broken rail is in your SIT yard on track you own, why are you asking BNSF to change the rail? $$$$$
The crossings in question are on private property and not subject to highway clearance regulations. So we tried to make it the best for the railroad and us.
As for that broken rail it is on the yard lead from the BNSF main on the interchange trackwork and the BNSF at times uses that lead as a RIP track or a storage track as needed for track machines or ballast trains or even the occasional hotbox set out for eastbound trains. So they agreed to repair it for us.
I'm not sure who handles our track maintenance for us. There is a small firm in my town I do get invoices from and they are a track repair company. It must be them.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.