Railroads compete with truckers for long haul freight.
What is going to happen on Dec. 18, 2017? This is when truckers (with exceptions) will be required to use Electronic Logging Devices. Trucking hours of service regulations are somewhat convoluted, but to keep things simple I'll say a driver may be on duty for a maxium of 14 hours out of which he/she can drive a total of 11 hours. (The other hours are spent getting loaded and unloaded, checking the truck, taking a break, etc.) After that time the driver is legally required to go off duty for a minimum of 10 continuous hours. As I said, it's more convoluted than that, but that's the gist of things.
Right now many small trucking companies and owner operators (that's the majority of trucking) use paper logs to self report compliance with these rules. As you may suspect, cheating through falsification of the paper logs is a somewhat common occurance. Both the drivers and the companies get paid by the mile. So they're sometimes (often?) inclined to falsify their log book hours in order to get more miles.
On Dec. 18, 2017 the rules themselves will not change. What will change is that the paper logs (AKA "Swindle Sheets") must be replaced by Electronic Logging Devices. As of yet, no one has figured out how to falsify the records using the ELDs.
Some truckers are having a cow abut this. ELDs have the very real possibility of significantly reducing the number of miles a truck can move in a day. I've read, but I cannot verify, that it will be hard for some trucks to make 500 miles a day due to things such as normal highway congestion, normal loading delays, etc. This should force trucking costs up while degrading trucking service.
This, in turn, should make rail service, particularly rail intermodal service, more competitive with over the road trucking. How much more competitive? I cannot quantify that. How much actual growth the railroads will see because of the ELDs is an open question. But they should get some.
The truckers are fighting this. They are trying to get congress to move back the ELD deadline to Dec. 18, 2019. No doubt they'd use those two years to try to kill the ELD requirement altogether if they get the extension. But Dec. 18, 2017 is coming up fast.
All the major fleets already use ELDs, so I doubt if it will make much of a difference. I remember back in the mid 90's when I drove for Schneider Specialized, all the drivers saying that they couldn't drive for a company with GPS installed on their trucks. Who doesn't have it now? The only major segment that is controlled by smaller companies is the refrigerated group. They will probably have problems with their expedited coast-to-coast runs, but that'll make it safer for everyone else out there.
I've been out of the industry (although still interested in it) for 20 years, so I may be missing something here.
Almost 90% of the industry is already running them now greyhound. Why our insurance companies offer us a premium discount if we have them installed on the trucks. If you think saving 10% from your car insurance company is a savings for having a device attached to your OMB port to see how your driving try a fleet of 250 trucks running haz-mat on E-logs with onboard cameras that look forward. When we installed them we got a 25% reduction on the cost of our insurance for both items. Let's just say it made a huge difference in our bottom line enough that our drivers got a pay raise.
It also made my job easier when I was the log auditor along with handling IFTA complaince when all miles in a state are recorded via GPS and reported automatically to my computer each quarter. Now instead of taking 3 weeks to do my IFTA quarterly reports it takes me 1 day. I get a printout of all fuel purchased where and when by what trucks compare that to their MPG for the quarter the computer program I have figures out what is owed to whom and who owes us. It makes my life very easy.
As for the expidieted coast to coast runs not a problem there the old system was 10/8 the current one is max of 14 with 10 off. After 8 hours the drivers are required to take a 30 min break so 1 hour is killed per day. Then you have to fuel the truck at least 1 time a day as a team if not 2 times a day. Most drivers I know that run team refuel at the start of their shift do their Pretrip inspection then stick it in the wind. They are busy all 23 out of the 24 hours of the day legally on the books. If they are live unloading or loading then one is sleeping the other is awake. Most teams have a night shift driver and a day shifter that way they can keep it moving. A good team with these regulations in 22 hours with just a 70 MPH truck can cover over 1400 miles in one day. NYC is just under 3000 miles from Salianas CA so in less than 54 hours they will be in NYC regardless.
The industry is ready for this trouble is they are having trouble getting enough freaking Elogs approved by the FMCSA to outfit all the equipment. They are dragging their feet on the approval process for production. Small carriers want a non Satalite based system they want a Cell based system the ATA is trying to force a Sat only system. Why to make it to expensive for the little guys to compete with their mega fleets. To run Qualcom like we do is 20 grand per company. A small 1 truck fleet can't afford that.
The refrigerator market was mentioned.
With the food security rules (Food Safety Modernization Act) that went into effect this year, those food shipments are being watched very closely. It will be ahrd for carriers who cannot supply a minute-by-minute report on the shipments will likely not be able to make the hauls. The shipments have to be tracked, security demonstrated, etc. Pretty tight rules for any one that handles, moves or stores food.
Shadow the Cats ownerThe industry is ready for this trouble is they are having trouble getting enough freaking Elogs approved by the FMCSA to outfit all the equipment. They are dragging their feet on the approval process for production. Small carriers want a non Satalite based system they want a Cell based system the ATA is trying to force a Sat only system. Why to make it to expensive for the little guys to compete with their mega fleets. To run Qualcom like we do is 20 grand per company. A small 1 truck fleet can't afford that.
What is one actually getting for $20K per truck to run Qualcom?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Not much besides GPS and Elogs. Since they are a single truck fleet they have no need for the satellite messages or real time data we can get on our fleet. Things like engine codes if acting up or fuel mileage or the mega fleets are big on this remote shutdown if idling at night. That's right the big boys can shutdown the engine over the satellite if they want. One thing we do offer is wake up calls for our driver's. Its an 130 decibel buzzer that we can turn on. They like it actually since they can sleep knowing we will send that alarm to them.
The 20k is the purchase price for the unit then you have the monthly costs. I think last month for 250 units for us it was right at 30 grand still cheaper than paying for phone calls and faster than you think.
Shadow the Cats ownerThat's right the big boys can shutdown the engine over the satellite if they want.
Know a fellow who works in the local shop of a well known truck manufacturer.
A truck was brought into their shop, with the keys still in the driver's pocket (and without the driver). The service manager was on the phone with the trucking company's maintenance guy when the mechanics hot-wired the truck so they could find the problem.
The truck co's maintenance guy said, "who just started my truck?..."
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Yep they can do that and more. There's some carrier's out there that will fine a driver for going off the company specific routing. Some carriers route driver's around different ways to avoid a scalehouse that is picking on them or to a certain point for fuel. We refuse to do that. The companies that do that are normally on the FMCSA radar for multiple issues to the point that one more out of service inspection score is going to kill them big-time.
I read in the July issue of Railway Age (Midyear Report, can't find a link to it) that some rail analysts think railroads are and will continue to get some IM business as trucking companies are going to electronic logs. Not earth shattering volume maybe, but some business.
On the subject of HOS and logs. Until they got caught doing it many (25+) years ago, community college truck driving instructors (located in a city on I-380 somewhere between Iowa City and Waterloo that also boasts of at least two distinguished forum participants) showed students how to "cheat" on log books. I seem to remember a couple of former forum participants who were or had been truck drivers. (The ones I'm thinking of haven't been around in a long time. It's not any of our trucker friends currently on here.) I believe we were discussing railroads vs. trucks on service and some of their posts started talking about times when they had hot loads and how they had to "bend the law" on HOS. Enough that at the time I remember almost posting that railroads would do better if only we also would thumb our nose at HOS.
Jeff
Shadow the Cats ownerYep they can do that and more. There's some carrier's out there that will fine a driver for going off the company specific routing. Some carriers route driver's around different ways to avoid a scalehouse that is picking on them or to a certain point for fuel. We refuse to do that. The companies that do that are normally on the FMCSA radar for multiple issues to the point that one more out of service inspection score is going to kill them big-time.
When I am traveling, about 90% of the weigh and inspection stations I see along the Interstate system are closed.
Additionally, what is the 'Pre-pass' system?
Pre Pass is an electric weigh in motion along with a minor company compliance check. If your carrier meets certain high standards your granted access to it. The system is paid for via usage fees by the carrier's themselves. We are apart of it and it costs us 1.50 each time we bypass a scale. How are we able to bypass the scale a series of lights on our transponder mounted in the cab. If our driver gets a green light they keep right on rolling red they pull into the scale no questions asked. The drivers love having it. We also pay a bonus for clean inspection reports from the DOT. I'm amazed at what 50 bucks will do for a driver.
Pretty clear to me that Electronic Logs are to trucking with PTC is to railroading, at this point.
Both are significantly increasing costs to operate in either business, both of which have fairly low margins and are constantly battling for market share - a good thing for shippers.
Like any new wave of regulation, industry is going to fight it, and I support the right for them to do so. While both ELB and PTC will make the roads and rails safer, at what cost? We'll eventually find out.
In the meantime, they'll clamor for more time. If you think the railroads will be meeting the upcoming PTC deadline, you are mistaken!
It pretty much is except we had less time to get ready for it. Final rule for us was written less than 2 years ago and all trucks built prior to 2000 with an engine built that same year also have to be equipped by the end of this year. Even with all the Mega fleets equipped already and most of the larger smaller fleets there are still at last estimate over 100K trucks to go. My boss luckily is already compliant however there are several small companies near us that are no where near ready. We almost think we are going to end up buying them out since the owners have refused to even consider installing them. Saftey has zero to play with the mandate in this industry for us it all about Revenue for the DOT of the various states. Why because now they can look and match everything to a T on the log and if your wrong they will fine you so bad your family needs Food Stamps to live on for 2 months. The fine for my boss if a driver falsifies a E Log is 25 grand per occurance. So how many companies are going to risk that kind of cash. They can scream it is all about safety yet they have a 14 hour clock that can not be stopped on the HOS that forces drivers to drive tired at times and carriers that want to can make a driver run 98 hours in 8 days which is 28 hours more than they could under the Original HOS in the industry. That is one thing I can not figure out how is 98 hours in 8 days safer than 70 in 8 days no one at the FMCSA can answer that one either.
Shadow the Cats ownerThey can scream it is all about safety yet they have a 14 hour clock that can not be stopped on the HOS that forces drivers to drive tired at times and carriers that want to can make a driver run 98 hours in 8 days which is 28 hours more than they could under the Original HOS in the industry.
That's not the way I read it. I could be wrong, but the way I read it is that the 14 hour on duty time limit for a driver can be stopped. After a minimum 10 hour off duty period a driver starts fresh with 14 hours allowed on duty. Of those 14 hours only 11 may be used for actual driving. If a driver stops driving for more than two hours and takes a nap (or whatever) the 14 hour on duty limit is extended by the time he/she was stopped. (I said this gets convoluted.)
For example: If a driver goes on duty at 6:00 AM and starts driving at 7:00 AM his/her uninteruped on duty limit will end at 8:00 PM while his/her driving time will end at 6:30 PM. (There is a legally required 30 minute break which does not count against driving time. Hence 6:30 PM instead of 6:00 PM.)
They're obviously trying to promote a 24 hour cycle here. 14 hours on duty, 10 off duty.
If the driver is tired and thinks a nap would be best he/she can park the truck and snooze in the sleeper berth. This will extend the 14 hour on duty limit and stop the driving limit clock. If our driver who went on duty at 6:00 AM and started driving at 7:00 AM stops for a four hour nap at say, 2:00 PM, he/she still has four hours of driving time left after the nap and can be on duty until midnight. The four hour nap is credited. BUT, the only way to get a reset to the full 14 hours on duty limit and the full 11 hour drive time limit is to take a 10 hour off duty rest period. (Everybody got that?)
I agree that the larger trucking fleets already use electronic logs. But then, these are the trucking companies that use rail intermodal to various extents. Examples are, of course, JB Hunt, Schneider, CR England, Marten, Prime, UPS, Fedex, YRC, and ABF. Then there are the rail reefer 3rd party companies such as Alliance Shippers and Tiger Cool. These 3rd parties, and the reefer truckers, compete successfully with team drivers using intermodal service. Team drivers have been around for decades. They have their place, but they are less efficient than a solo driver running illegally. If they were the most efficient way to move product over the road they would have replaced solo drivers long ago.
Most truck tonnage does not move via the large fleets. It moves by smaller companies and independent owner operators. These are the guys that are going get much less efficient when they have to use electronic logs. They can no longer cheat.
I'll fault the railroads because I have seen no effort on their part to exploit the situation. Oh, the railroads will sit back and take whatever comes their way. But actively pursuing this decline in trucking efficiency is just too much marketing effort for the railroads.
greyhoundsMost truck tonnage does not move via the large fleets. It moves by smaller companies and independent owner operators. These are the guys that are going get much less efficient when they have to use electronic logs. They can no longer cheat. I'll fault the railroads because I have seen no effort on their part to exploit the situation. Oh, the railroads will sit back and take whatever comes their way. But actively pursuing this decline in trucking efficiency is just too much marketing effort for the railroads.
I don't know if it is too much of a marketing effort. I am thinkin RR's are staying out of the teeth gnashing that is taking place by the trucking industry (read small time owner/operators) waiting for the new regulations to take place. The RR's don't want to be seen as putting their fingers on the 'scale of justice' and tick joe six pack off against the 'Big Bad Railroad'. Let the regulations take full force and effect on their own and the marketing efforts will ramp up and be there to take the business.
Greyhound the clock doesn't stop from the time the driver goes on duty until he stops for the night and hits the sleeper berth or if a local driver is clocked off of work. There is a US Food warehouse in my town that has literally had to send out a relief driver to get a truck and driver less than 4 blocks from the warehouse before. Why the first driver hit his clock and any more driving would be illegal. The daily clock can't be stopped unless your in the sleeper proud and it is the worst thing ever put into the HOS ever.
As for your comment a solo running illegal is more efficient than a good team. Nope never our best solo mileage ever under these HOS regulations for a month is 16k our worst team miles in a month was 27k under the same HOS. 11k more miles and the team took 6 days off for a family members funeral at the end of the month. They might have broken 30k in a month.
Shadow. What are the local rules now and after December ? What distance from home terminal are they allowed ?
Shadow the Cats ownerGreyhound the clock doesn't stop from the time the driver goes on duty until he stops for the night and hits the sleeper berth or if a local driver is clocked off of work. There is a US Food warehouse in my town that has literally had to send out a relief driver to get a truck and driver less than 4 blocks from the warehouse before. Why the first driver hit his clock and any more driving would be illegal. The daily clock can't be stopped unless your in the sleeper proud and it is the worst thing ever put into the HOS ever. As for your comment a solo running illegal is more efficient than a good team. Nope never our best solo mileage ever under these HOS regulations for a month is 16k our worst team miles in a month was 27k under the same HOS. 11k more miles and the team took 6 days off for a family members funeral at the end of the month. They might have broken 30k in a month.
Well, I could well be wrong. But this is what I was going by:
How do I calculate the 14 Hour rule?
The spilt sleeper break is so screwy most carriers will not let drivers use it why even the DOT officers can not understand it and will write tickets for using it. Then you have to prove in court your driver was fine per the HOS losing more time for him and money for you and watch your SAFER score climb in the mean time. This HOS that was imposed is so screwed up the log auditors we use JJ Keller to back us up and they are one of the best go we have trouble making sure. Yes you can pause it with a 2 hour nap however even stopping to eat aka going off duty does not stop it when at a shipper or reciever peroid and that is the guidence we have been given by Keller and the FMCSA who are the ones that audit us. So who are you going to belive the people that can literally fine you out of exsistence with the fines these days or what you think it says in my shoes.
Local rules will always be what they have been 100 air mile radius of the home terminal.
Most people are operating legally now as the fines and penalties for breaking the law are more severe today than ever before. Moreover, thanks to advances in technology and supply chain management, there's nolonger that much of need for expedited delivery. In my own case.. I get more service failures for delivering early than I do delivering late. Better communication and computing have allowed shippers and receivers to plan their needs further out... so a receiver of steel (for example) might know what his inventory replenishment needs are 6 months out now verses only a week or two out ten years ago. This allows much better planning for all involved, and reduces the need for speed in transportation.
Yes I am in Upstate Ny and its been years since I have seen a way station open.
CandOforprogress2 Yes I am in Upstate Ny and its been years since I have seen a way station open.
There aren't many way stations still in existance.
On the other hand, NYSP enforcement folks stay pretty busy around here, especially being as close to the Canadian border, as we are. They carry portable scales, so a permanent weigh station isn't necessary.
CandOforprogress2Yes I am in Upstate Ny and its been years since I have seen a way station open.
Every time I read something such as this I am very troubled. I just know my dear mother, who taught elementary school in rural Illinois for 43 years, is spinning in her grave.
It's "weigh" NOT "way"! What have we come to be?
She started out in one of those one room schools with eight grades in that one room. I'll guarantee everyone that no student ever graduated from her eighth grade who did not know the difference between "weigh" and "way".
How does anyone expect to be taken seriously when they cannot use correct English? Everyone misspells or mistypes a word from time to time. It's no big deal. But not knowing the difference between "weigh" and "way" is pure ignorance.
greyhoundsI'll guarantee everyone that no student ever graduated from her eighth grade who did not know the difference between "weigh" and "way".
It would be nice to know also that they would know the difference between "way station" and "weigh station", both of which are perfectly correct English but of course with wildly different meaning.
For our poster (who couldn't distinguish the difference) 'way station' (as in the Cliff Simak novel) is a depot along a railroad route, not one of the principal stops. It may have a connotation of 'out of the way'. (And yes, it's probably been many years since a railroad has built a new one of those.)
A 'weigh station' is a facility where over-the-road vehicles are checked to ensure they are not overweight either overall or on particular axles.
Interestingly enough (to grammar nutzis) there is a similar concern over the nautical expression 'anchors away' (which of course is "aweigh" correctly used) while the ship itself is 'under way' and not 'weigh' as it moves onto course. We say "way 'nuff" when lifting a shell down from riggers, when we have it positioned right, because it doesn't have to move any further to be aligned for the next step.
greyhounds CandOforprogress2 Yes I am in Upstate Ny and its been years since I have seen a way station open. Every time I read something such as this I am very troubled. I just know my dear mother, who taught elementary school in rural Illinois for 43 years, is spinning in her grave. It's "weigh" NOT "way"! What have we come to be? She started out in one of those one room schools with eight grades in that one room. I'll guarantee everyone that no student ever graduated from her eighth grade who did not know the difference between "weigh" and "way". How does anyone expect to be taken seriously when they cannot use correct English? Everyone misspells or mistypes a word from time to time. It's no big deal. But not knowing the difference between "weigh" and "way" is pure ignorance.
Your mother would be proud, you covered that topic like a blanket....
RME. -- Didn't RR Way Station come from stagecoach routes used to change horses. Then even earlier Way Station a place for horse back riders to overnight? Maybe it even went further back ?
blue streak 1Didn't RR Way Station come from stagecoach routes used to change horses. Then even earlier Way Station a place for horse back riders to overnight?
The idea of 'way station' does have the connotation of places for periodic stopping during a continued journey, as opposed to intermediate destination points, in some definitions. So yes, both 'changing the horses' and obtaining meals or lodging in the stagecoach era, and probably as carried over into the early days of railroading (where 20-odd-minute stops for meals prior to the dining-car era were common things).
To me, "way station" meant a "station along the way,"-- where a train or bus stopped between its origin and destination to discharge and receive passengers.
Johnny
And what are now referred to as Locals or Road Switchers, on some properties were once known as 'Way Freights'.
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