prairiedug In the Calgary Herald recently there was a long troubling article about seemingly capricious and vindictive staff dismissals under Hunter Harrison's watch and a resulting toxic corporate culture, at least at the operations level. Several cases were cited of staff being dismissed for the most trivial and ridiculous reasons. Although most apparently got their jobs back after an appeal process. So this caused me to wonder... Would this happen because there was an deliberate CP policy to reduce the head count and by any means possible? If so, would this have been communicated to lower management either in writing or verbally? Or, is this a case of a corporation taking on the personality of its leader? Would lower management types have gotten the idea that their leader is a tough SOB and that they should mimic this in order to get noticed in a positive (for them) way by upper management? I wonder if there are any industry insiders (especially CP) who read this who might offer some insight?
In the Calgary Herald recently there was a long troubling article about seemingly capricious and vindictive staff dismissals under Hunter Harrison's watch and a resulting toxic corporate culture, at least at the operations level. Several cases were cited of staff being dismissed for the most trivial and ridiculous reasons. Although most apparently got their jobs back after an appeal process. So this caused me to wonder... Would this happen because there was an deliberate CP policy to reduce the head count and by any means possible? If so, would this have been communicated to lower management either in writing or verbally? Or, is this a case of a corporation taking on the personality of its leader? Would lower management types have gotten the idea that their leader is a tough SOB and that they should mimic this in order to get noticed in a positive (for them) way by upper management? I wonder if there are any industry insiders (especially CP) who read this who might offer some insight?
And the Calgary Herald's sources would be? People are hired and let go all the time for a number of reasons. As CP is a privately held corporation we'll likely never know as matters involving employee relations are generally confidential. Maybe someone has an axe to grind and went to the media to grind it...happens all the time.
Here (from the Train Orders site) is an excerpt from a message to employees issued by Keith Creel now that Hunter Harrison is gone. Furthermore, the stories about treatment of employees at CP mirror those from CN when EHH was in charge there. The only difference is that either nobody went to the media or the media chose not to investigate and make it public at the time. It is more than just a handful of malcontents with an axe to grind.
"In a message to union employees today, new CEO Keither Creel came about as close as corporately possible to apologizing for the harsh life we've endured that last five years. Here are a few quotes. "=14px...the transition was tough. When you are in survival mode you have to move quickly. When you do, you can make mistakes. We got most things right, as we can all see in the results, but not everything. That's why a few weeks ago, as one of my first acts as CEO, I asked my team to take another look at our discipline policy. It's not that we need to dwell on the how's and why's of the past, but I want the future to look different. I view discipline as something I would rather not have to do but something I cannot avoid as part of my commitment to all employees. Simply put, we need people to do their jobs fully, to the best of their abilities and always, always safely. From a long history in this industry, I am absolutely passionate about this second point. This can be an unforgiving business and it is the short cut, the inattention to detail or the little unsafe act that can have the most terrible consequences. I would rather be tough on the issue with a person and ensure their safety than to visit a spouse to explain a tragic accident." "Furthermore, as part of this review, I am personally reviewing all outstanding terminations. I have already directed some reconsiderations. Not all cases can be eligible. Some infractions are so serious that, for the protection of all, there can be no second chance. I would ask every CP employee to embrace this positive change with me. Let's be our brothers' and sisters' keepers and make sure that CP continues to build on its status among the very best in performance and safety."
That sounds reasonable to me..
An excellent Globe & Mail investigative report from a couple weeks ago:
This should answer many of your questions about what working for an EHH-run railroad is really like. As it was paywalled here is the text:
Canadian Pacific: The cost of success In just a few years, Hunter Harrison turned a lagging railway into an industry leader. He slashed costs, tripled profit and made a fortune for shareholders. But the overhaul came at a price. Crews walked out over working conditions and managers found themselves driving freight trains. A Globe and Mail investigation finds a huge spike in cases in which employees were fired or suspended for trivial reasons – and had to fight to clear their names and win their jobs back. Eric Atkins reports on the workplace turmoil behind CP’s turnaround ERIC ATKINS RAILWAY INDUSTRY REPORTER THE GLOBE AND MAIL LAST UPDATED: TUESDAY, MAR. 07, 2017 9:51AM EST Late one night in October, 2015, Jeff Reid was working around a train in a Canadian Pacific Railway Ltd. yard in Brandon when he stepped in a gopher hole, twisting his ankle. Mr. Reid, a locomotive engineer, felt immediate pain and thought that he might have sprained it. He finished his shift and, on his way out, warned the incoming train crew about the hole. The next morning, Mr. Reid phoned his supervisor to tell him what had happened, then went to a walk-in clinic to see his doctor. The gopher hole was patched up that afternoon. A few weeks later, Mr. Reid was fired. A 34-year employee who had gone 20 years with nothing more than a warning for missing a call to work, he was told that he had “breached the bond of trust necessary for continued employment” by not immediately reporting his injury or the safety hazard, according to a company letter submitted at an arbitration hearing in December. The railway later changed its mind and suspended him for 10 months. The union, the Teamsters Canada Rail Conference, successfully fought Mr. Reid’s punishment at the Canadian Railway Office of Arbitration and Dispute Resolution (CROA). The arbitrator ruled his favour, ordering CP to give Mr. Reid his job back and pay his lost wages with interest, adding that the firing “lacks proportionality to the factual circumstances of this case.” Mr. Reid’s case is not an isolated one. In his relentless drive to cut costs, former chief executive officer Hunter Harrison overhauled the culture at Canadian Pacific. His four and a half years in the job were transformational by any measure. The revered railway executive slashed costs, boosted productivity and turned a lagging freight hauler into a lean, formidable competitor with rising profits. Investors who bought into the railway have been huge winners: those who bought shares when Mr. Harrison arrived in 2012 after a boardroom fight have enjoyed 150-per-cent gains, not including dividends, after more than a decade of watching the stock price go sideways. All of that, however, came at a cost. Among the changes at Calgary-based CP is a disciplinary process that the union representing train crews says is harsh and arbitrary. In an increasing number of cases over the past several years, long-serving CP employees with few disciplinary infractions have been fired for seemingly minor offences. The Globe and Mail looked at several years’ worth of CROA rulings and found a number of cases similar to Jeff Reid’s: Workers fired for not wearing safety glasses; fired for urinating outdoors; fired for walking between rail cars; fired after suffering a back injury. Most got their jobs back in arbitration, a process that can take several months. Teamsters Canada Rail Conference has fought 92 dismissals at CP since 2013, an average of 23 a year. Arbitrators found 77 of those firings were unjustified and overturned them. Between 2003 and 2012, there were just 47 dismissal hearings, an average of about five a year, the union says. “They treat their employees as if they’re the enemy,” said Doug Finnson, president of the Teamsters, which represents 3,000 CP engineers, conductors and traffic controllers. “It’s the craziest situation I’ve ever witnessed in my life.” A number of unionized CP employees interviewed by The Globe say the financial and operational gains of which the company boasts have come at their expense. Mr. Harrison’s reign, they say, has instilled a culture of fear and intimidation that has led to soaring numbers of firings, suspensions and grievances. Train crews staged two strikes over working conditions during Mr. Harrison’s 4 1/2-year tenure. Complaints about crew fatigue prompted Transport Canada to order CP alter some of its operations in Western Canada. And amid work stoppages and job cuts, CP managers and office workers have found themselves doing work far from their day-to-day duties: driving freight trains. Mr. Harrison “made CP viable again, but he turned loose the hounds,” said a former official at one of a handful of unions that represent CP employees. “It was good and it was bad.” The good, he said, was Mr. Harrison’s model of “precision railroading,” a top-to-bottom remake of CP’s train scheduling, yard layouts and asset utilization. The bad, he said, came when lower-level managers began to suspend and dismiss employees without approval from managers higher in the food chain. He said the managers – yardmasters, trainmasters and superintendents – were under increasing pressure to adapt to Mr. Harrison’s way of railroading and keep trains moving. “They believed being harsh was part of precision railroading,” he said. Said one train operator: “People don’t even want to go to their manager and ask a simple question, like, ‘hey, do you know about this customer? I’ve never been there before.’ A typical response is: “‘Are you telling me you are unfamiliar with your job? Do you need to be retrained or do you need to be investigated for not knowing your territory?’ Oh, my God, it’s so brutal.” The Globe interviewed several current CP employees for this story and agreed not to identify them to protect them from being fired. All other employee names were gathered from their CROA arbitration rulings, including Mr. Reid, who could not be reached. Mr. Harrison declined to be interviewed for this story. “Under Hunter [Harrison], CP signed longer labour deals than prior management,” said a spokesman for Mr. Harrison. “Unions voted for unusually long deals showing they liked what [the company] proposed; new contracts approved with record-high approval levels.” CP declined several requests to interview its new CEO, Keith Creel, who was Mr. Harrison’s understudy at CP and Canadian National Railway Co. In an e-mailed statement, the company said: “CP is proud to say that it has negotiated successful long-term agreements with all of its unions but one, with record rates of ratification in most cases. CP will begin negotiations with the TCRC – currently the only union without a long-term agreement in place – later this year.” The Harrison way Cost controls, tight scheduling and making the best use of assets are key themes of Mr. Harrison’s way of railroading. It’s a framework he has applied at three railways he has run – Illinois Central, CN, and since 2012, CP. Walter Spracklin, a stock analyst at Royal Bank of Canada, said Mr. Harrison’s “impressive” turnaround at CP came despite volatile demand for freight transport. He said Mr. Harrison has an “innate ability” to uncover cost inefficiencies, and the “force of personality to enact and inspire change.” “He’s never failed before,” said Anthony Hatch, a rail consultant with ABH Consulting in New York. Mr. Harrison’s style, at its simplest, means running fewer, longer and faster trains on a schedule. Get rid of customers that aren’t profitable. Slash the head count. Rip out unneeded track switches or sidings. Make the assets sweat. At CP, he mothballed hundreds of locomotives and thousands of rail cars. He cut the amount of time trains spent in the yards by 19 per cent and improved network speed by 40 per cent, according to CP documents. The operating ratio, a closely watched comparison of costs versus revenue, improved to 58 per cent from an industry worst 83. About 5,500 jobs were lost, most through attrition. His reputation as a cost-cutter has worked for him, and against him. He left CP at the end of January and is in talks for the CEO job at Florida-based railway CSX Corp., whose shareholders appear eager for his ability to squeeze profit from shrinking companies. CSX’s share price has risen about 30 per cent since Mr. Harrison’s plans were reported. But his reputation also posed a roadblock to his attempts to merge CP with another U.S. railway, Norfolk Southern Corp. A long list of U.S. politicians, shippers, other railways and even the U.S. Army opposed the merger, which they said would harm service and competition. “We believe that Canadian Pacific’s short-term, cut-to-the-bone strategy could cause Norfolk Southern to lose substantial revenues from our service-sensitive customer base,” Norfolk Southern CEO James Squires said in December, 2015. When other large U.S. railways campaigned against the Norfolk Southern takeover, CP threatened legal action, another sign Mr. Harrison is unafraid of standing apart from his peers. Under Mr. Harrison, CP refused to join dozens of other companies by contributing to a fund that compensates the families of the 47 people who died in the 2013 Lac-Mégantic oil train conflagration. CP hauled the oil from North Dakota before handing it off in Montreal, but said it bore no responsibility. He said government “overreacted” to the tragedy by imposing new regulations that would not have prevented human error. The company has touted its operating record as the safest, even as it expanded its use of inexperienced managers to run freight trains. People in government and the agriculture industry describe Mr. Harrison and his team as tough negotiators. CP employees who came in contact with the Memphis-born CEO describe him as focused, a visionary and gruff. --------------- OVERTURNED DISMISSALS Conductor Fred Chamberlain was fired for urinating next to CP’s MacTier station in Muskoka, Ont., in October, 2015. Mr. Chamberlain, 51 years old and less than four years from retirement at the time, ducked out of the station after holding it for 15 minutes while the lone washroom was occupied. “I couldn’t wait any longer and I had to go,” Mr. Chamberlain told company investigators after being reported by a manager who witnessed his nature break. He apologized and later gave the company a doctor’s note confirming he had a prostate condition that cause frequent, urgent urination. “There is no evidence to suggest he was in any way intending to be disrespectful to CP and no harm did, or was even likely to, result from his choice,” wrote the arbitrator, Andrew Sims. “There is no evidence this was a high-traffic area. Even without the medical evidence, this incident was only worthy of a warning. With the medical evidence and Mr. Chamberlain’s contrition, there was virtually no just cause for discipline.” At the time of the incident, Mr. Chamberlain was being interviewed by a company investigator over a safety violation for which he was also dismissed. That firing, which related to his having failed to release handbrakes on three rail cars, was also overturned and replaced with a suspension of four months, a medical assessment and remedial training. Trainman Steven Stacey injured his back and couldn’t work. The company fired him 21 months later, even though Mr. Stacey had on three occasions submitted medical forms stating he was fit for modified duties. The arbitrator gave him back his job after a hearing in Edmonton in September, 2016. In his written ruling, arbitrator Mr. Sims said Mr. Stevens and the Teamsters could have been quicker to supply functional abilities tests. But he said he was concerned the warning letter CP sent Mr. Stevens “is devoid of any explanation for the company’s position. It does not say what medical restrictions present problems and why accommodation would be inappropriate or unduly burdensome. It says nothing about what it views the current medical prognosis to be, whether or how it considered the grievor’s ability to return to work in the future, and on what basis it concluded the grievor would not be returning to active service. The employer here says it gave the grievor notice, although the lack of substance in that notice causes me concern. It also says it gave notice to the union, although that fact was not established in any definitive way.” A rail yard foreman with 29 years’ service and no demerit points was fired for walking between two detached and moving sections of a train. The Teamsters union argued his firing in July, 2015, was “unjustified, unwarranted and excessive.” There was 15 feet between the cars, less than the minimum 50 feet required under the operating rules. A superintendent who was watching warned him of the dangers and launched an investigation, according to evidence given at the arbitration hearing in December. The employee was fired two weeks later. The employee, who was not named in the arbitrator’s ruling, got his job back and was handed a 15-day suspension. “The evidence shows that the [employee] took an unacceptable risk and did so just a few months after being observed to have broken the same rule,” wrote arbitrator Maureen Flynn, who called CP’s offer to replace the firing with a 90-day suspension “clearly excessive and inappropriate.” Source: CROA filings --------------- The human toll North American railways have traditionally weeded out unsafe employees by handing out demerit points under what’s known as the Brown system. Workers who amass a certain number of points, depending on their role, are suspended or dismissed. It’s a system intended to identify and punish dangerous employees, while offering them a chance to work off the demerits. At the same time, employees with clean records who make a rare mistake are protected from dismissal. CP moved away from the demerit system in 2012, a shift employees say unleashed a spree of firings and suspensions without regard for prior disciplinary records. Martin Cej, a CP spokesman, said the Brown demerit system was “antiquated” and stood in the way of the company’s need to create a “culture of safety-rules compliance that would keep our employees and the communities we operate in safe.” “The demerit system did not create a safer environment because it allowed employees to accumulate demerits for unsafe actions and behaviours without facing any consequences or corrective actions. Over time, the demerits would simply expire,” Mr. Cej said. Mr. Finnson, the union leader, said the elimination of the demerit point system meant employees faced harsher discipline – firings and suspensions, both of which soared under Mr. Harrison. “A suspension, quite frankly, harms the employee and his family more than demerit points harm someone. Most employees, if the allegation is they made a mistake, they can work off the points,” Mr. Finnson said. Railway grievances that can’t be resolved locally are heard by arbitrators at the Canadian Railway Office of Arbitration, which serves CP, CN, Via Rail and various unions. CROA has its roots in the First World War era, a time when governments in Canada and the United States were eager to avoid labour disputes that would disrupt shipments of goods vital to the war effort. Mr. Finnson said the flood of CP dismissals has overwhelmed the arbitrators’ schedules, and a fired employee now faces almost a year to have his or her grievance heard. Overwhelmingly, arbitrators hearing dismissal grievances at CP have sided with the union. Conductor Stephanie Katelnikoff of Calgary had been at CP for less than six months when her train derailed on broken track and fell into 40 Mile Creek in Banff National Park in December, 2014. One of the derailed cars contained a toxic coal by-product, which Ms. Katelnikoff inhaled. She later went to the hospital to be treated for lung irritation and sought post-incident counselling for trauma, according to evidence submitted at the CROA hearing. CP fired her for reasons that included not immediately reporting her injury and contacting a reporter about the derailment, a violation of company policy, according to the CROA report. However, the arbitrator discarded the company’s claims. Ms. Katelnikoff was not aware the cargo that spilled was toxic, which explained her inability to connect her illness with the derailment and her delay in reporting symptoms, ruled arbitrator Maureen Flynn. Ms. Flynn noted a supervisor named Jason Inglis called the counsellor Ms. Katelnikoff was seeing and tried to discredit her and play down the derailment’s effects on her. Ms. Flynn also found Ms. Katelnikoff was being punished for filing a sexual harassment claim against a co-worker. “Over all, the arbitrator finds that the grounds cited for Ms. Katelnikoff’s dismissal are factually inaccurate and unfounded,” Ms. Flynn ruled. “Furthermore, those allegations appear to be a camouflage of the company’s actual reasons that are discriminatory and in bad faith.” Train conductor Ian Lougheed was fired for not wearing safety glasses, a violation of company policy. The employee, based in Northern Ontario, said he had removed the glasses briefly to rub his eyes, the CROA report said. He had previously been disciplined for poor attendance (a firing that was overturned), and the company deemed his lack of eye protection, however brief, as a firing offence. According to the CROA report, the union argued his firing was, among other things, “contrary to company policy,” “contrary to the arbitral principles of progressive discipline” and was handed out “in a discriminatory manner.” The arbitrator who heard the case in December said that, although CP has the right to discipline Mr. Lougheed for not wearing the glasses, firing him went too far. “CP has not established that Mr. Lougheed’s most recent incident, when read together with his past record, justified the ultimate penalty of dismissal. Based on Mr. Lougheed’s momentary lapse, the arbitrator is satisfied that a written warning suffices to indicate the seriousness of the matter.” One train engineer, who spoke to The Globe on condition of anonymity, said he began having joint pain but waited a few days before reporting it to his supervisor, in the hopes it would get better. “They fired me for not reporting immediately,” he said. “The rule says you have to report an injury as soon as it happens; mine was just discomfort for a few days until I woke up and couldn’t get out of bed. I’m a 20-year employee with a super clean record. Now everyone is terrified to report any injuries or illnesses,” he said. “They’re trying to break the union by treating everyone horribly. Everyone is scared to book off when they’re tired because they could get fired for it.” He hopes to get his job back, but faces a lengthy wait for his hearing. CP under Mr. Harrison also sought to withdraw from CROA itself, after the company publicly criticized the ruling of arbitrator Michel Picher, who restored the job of an engineer involved in a derailment while on cocaine. Mr. Picher agreed with the union that the engineer’s long-term cocaine use was a disability and the company had a duty to accommodate him. CP appealed his reinstatement in Quebec Superior Court. “The Arbitrator’s decision is an outrage and, as a railroader, I am appalled we would be forced to place this employee back in the cab of a locomotive. On my watch, this individual will not operate a locomotive,” Mr. Harrison said in a statement at the time. “The decision sets a dangerous precedent and is grossly unacceptable for the safe operation of a railway.” A judge ruled the arbitrator’s decision lacked “justification, transparency and intelligibility,” and sent it back for another hearing. (The union sought to appeal this ruling. CP would not comment as the matter is before the courts. The man remains a CP employee, but is not operating trains, a CP source said.) CP dropped its plan to pull out of CROA but opposed Mr. Picher’s contract renewal and he no longer works for CROA. Mr. Picher declined to comment. Collision course The CP train was heading north and east through the Fraser River Valley on the afternoon of Dec. 11, 2016. It stretched more than a mile as it roared down the slope and around the curve near near North Bend, B.C. As the train rumbled toward what’s known as a restricting signal, the operating rules say the crew had two choices: stop the train, or slow down and be prepared to stop. They kept going, a mistake experienced railroaders in the canyon say they would never make. The signal means there’s either a landslide or another train ahead, said one CP train operator. But it wasn’t a veteran railroader at the controls of the train; it was a CP manager accompanied by another white-collar employee training to be a conductor, sources say. The train collided with the rear end of an empty coal train that was stopped on the tracks. “When they saw that there was a stopped train ahead, they initiated the emergency brake application and were travelling at about three miles an hour when they hit the other train,” said Peter Hickli, a senior investigator with the Transportation Safety Board, who confirmed the train was operated by managers. “They came in a little hot,” said one CP railroader familiar with the collision. The stopped coal train had the brakes set and the train “stretched out.” Otherwise, the impact and damage would have been greater, he said. The collision occurred in a canyon surrounded by mountains. Railroaders say it’s a section with steep grades and curves that challenge a crews’ abilities to brake and watch the track ahead. “It’s very demanding territory,” Mr. Hickli said from Richmond, B.C. “And, in this case, the stationary train was there because there’s a crew change location there. And the train that was operating over the territory was on some curvature … I’m sure it had some visual impediments … It was down a 0.6 [per-cent] descending grade, which is difficult, as well. The canyon is very demanding that way, lots of ascending and descending grades.” Given there were no injuries or derailments and minor damage to the locomotive, the TSB did not conduct a full investigation. Transport Canada said on Thursday it is “still reviewing the incident.” A non-union source at CP said the managers were disciplined, but would not say what punishment they faced. The train operator did not respond to an interview request. Amid four years of job cuts – many through attrition – CP expanded its use of managers and office staff as train operators. “CP introduced a conductor training program and locomotive engineer training program [in 2012] for non-union employees as a critical component in the development of our people and the provision of best-in-class service to our customers,” Mr. Cej, the CP spokesman, said in an e-mail. Mr. Harrison said in 2015 the company would intensify its efforts to certify office staff as train crews, after a brief Teamsters strike earlier in the year. “Next [strike], we’re going to operate 100 per cent with management employees,” he said. The company recently sent dozens of managers to stations in Western Canada, including Vancouver, to fill in as train crews after years of job losses have tested the company’s ability to operate all of its trains using experienced crews, sources say. The TSB has highlighted the risks of using inexperienced train operators, and has expressed concern CP managers running trains are less experienced and receive less training than unionized crews. CP allows managers to “self-evaluate to determine when they are sufficiently familiar with a territory to begin working trains as an active crew member,” the TSB said in July, in a report on a 2015 incident involving CP managers driving a train. In that case, three managers operating a CP train rolled eight kilometres five miles on unauthorized track near Cranbrook, B.C., before a traffic controller ordered them to halt. “Although qualified for their respective positions, the management crew members were not familiar with the territory,” said the TSB in a report on the incident. Manager crews with little to no experience are routinely operating trains through the mountainous routes of B.C., hauling cargo that includes dangerous goods such as propane and oil, union members in Western Canada say. Mr. Cej said all CP train operators “must pass the required tests, be rules-qualified and meet all the standards for train operations. … Whether an employee is unionized or a management employee, nobody gets certified as a conductor or locomotive engineer until they achieve all the necessary requirements.” “It must be noted that management crews are only used to move our customers’ goods and to keep the economy moving when unionized crews are already fully utilized,” he said. “This generally occurs only in rare circumstances when factors outside of CP’s control create unpredictable spikes in demand, such as extreme weather events, system disruptions or unexpected changes in customer requirements. In 2016, CP used unionized crews for more than 99.7 per cent of all crew starts across the system and CP is hiring over 200 conductors this quarter across Canada.” Mr. Cej said CP has been the safest major railway in North America, measured by accident frequency, for 11 years. Under Mr. Harrison, the train accident frequency improved by 40 per cent to 0.97 per million train miles in 2016 from 1.69 in 2012. The Globe interviewed one unionized CP conductor who said he has trained office staff to run locomotives. He said he decided it is best to be assured inexperienced people can be shown how to safely do a dangerous job, even if it means he becomes known as a “union buster.” “They’re scared as hell,” he said. “I’ve had manager trainees, I’m talking office people, not trainmasters who worked in the trade. … These are 40-year-olds, overweight and sitting at a desk their whole career. They can hardly hold on to the side of a train let alone line a switch. There are tears in their eyes … and rightfully so. That equipment is unforgiving, and it’s big. These managers are just being forced to do things they’re not capable of. They’re just flustered.” Patrick Waldron, a spokesman for rival CN, said the Montreal-based company trains managers as locomotive crews to give them a fuller understanding of the business. “Management crews are used periodically. They are not used as part of a regular operating plan.” The shortage of train crews contributed to CP’s poor grain hauling service in late 2016 compared with that of CN, said Wade Sobkowich, executive director of the Western Grain Elevator Association, which represents six major grain handling companies, including Cargill and Richardson International. “We understand CP has had some labour challenges, especially on the West Coast. … I’ve been told anecdotally they’ve been using managers to run trains because they’ve lost some employees,” Mr. Sobkowich said in an interview. “They’ve had a lot of experienced people quit and it’s different when you’ve got new people learning the ropes. They’re not perhaps as knowledgeable and efficient as those who used to be there.” Amid complaints from train crews, Transport Canada last year ordered CP to change some of its operations in parts of Western Canada to reduce operator fatigue. CP on certain runs was “creating conditions which are causing fatigue to accumulate in operating crews, thereby reducing their alertness, while in care and control of trains,” Transport Canada said. CP was ordered to include transit time to and from the crews’ rest facility as time on duty; allow some crews to book eight hours’ undisturbed rest if their train is cancelled; and provide crews with more information on train lineups so they can better predict their shifts. The TSB has added train crew fatigue to its list of safety problems it is pushing railways to address, a list that includes flammable liquids. “[F] atigue continues to pose a risk to the safe operation of trains, particularly freight trains,” said the TSB, referring to the entire Canadian industry. A CP operating bulletin for train crews in Southern Ontario said that, effective Feb. 1, 2017, employees who take two or more sick days a month may face “disciplinary action.” The memo obtained by The Globe goes on to list other absences that “will be handled as more serious offences,” including booking sick after accepting a shift or taking sick days on weekends or after vacation and rest days. “Medical documentation will not be accepted to excuse these absence categories except in extraordinary circumstances involving a medical emergency.” (Train crews are paid by the mile, and don’t get paid unless they work.) When told of the memo, Mr. Finnson said it is contrary to labour laws. “This is Hunter Harrison’s guiding philosophy: Tie up the union defending rights they already have, so their demands at the bargaining table will likely be limited to resolving the outstanding disputes over the rights they have right now,” Mr. Finnson said. “So we’re going to spend a lot of money just arguing that CP can’t just arbitrarily dismiss medical information. We’re going to have all our time spent reacquiring all the rights we already have.” Spy game As Mr. Harrison and his team retooled the company’s operations, they also reshaped parts of the company’s container shipping division, reducing layers of management and, for the first time, paying commission to sales people. “Our goal is to encourage active, aggressive efforts to take that product to the marketplace,” the company said in its 2014 annual report. “To my knowledge, no railroad has ever done that,” Mr. Harrison said at the time. Within two years, the same sales division would find itself at the centre of an espionage lawsuit filed by rival CN, a much bigger railway and a formidable competitor. CN accused CP of going after its customers using confidential CN information. The customer lists, including contract prices and expiration dates, were improperly taken by two CN salesman before they left for jobs at CP, according to both sides. CN argued the removal and use of its secret customer information was anti-competitive, “unlawful” and a violation of the confidentiality agreement its employees signed. CP formed sales teams of “hunters” to target the CN clients, CN alleged in court documents. It also uncovered CP e-mails and text messages, including one from Mr. Creel, then CP’s operating chief, in which he tells a sales manager there were “no restrictions” on using the CN client lists. “It’s a competitive world. Free market,” he says. A lawyer for CP said in court the removal and use of the client lists should not have happened and did not reflect how CP conducts business. CP settled the lawsuit in the summer of 2016, a year after it was filed, for $25-million. In an interview with The Globe last year, Mr. Harrison said the culture shift he had overseen had nothing to do with the actions that led to the legal battle. But CP wasted little time dealing with those involved. The two former CN salesmen are gone and CP “reassigned” vice-president of intermodal sales Jacqueline Coyle and sales vice-president Timothy Marsh, according to court documents. Mr. Creel, meanwhile, stepped into the CEO job on Jan. 31. His move comes five months earlier than planned, after Mr. Harrison left CP to pursue the CEO job at CSX. Mr. Creel is a long-time deputy of Mr. Harrison, and analysts are confident in his ability to continue Mr. Harrison’s operational mission, even as some note the easiest improvements at what was a weak company have been made. “We have full confidence in Mr Creel and his team’s ability to lead CP,” said Benoit Poirier, a stock analyst with Desjardins Capital Markets. “Operationally, this still a strong company,” said Christian Wetherbee, a Citi Group analyst. Mr. Harrison’s arrival at CSX, based in Jacksonville, Fla., is made more likely due to his habit of boosting a railway’s profits and share price. And he is working with activist investor Paul Hilal, a former partner with Pershing Square Capital, the U.S. hedge fund that installed him at CP in 2012 after a proxy fight. One CSX railroader in the United States said employees are wary of a new boss with a reputation for slashing costs and head count. Workers are already feeling the pinch of CSX’s recent cost cuts that followed a steep decline in coal shipments, said the engineer, who did not want to be named to protect his job. “Simply put, the rank-and-file employees are feeling vulnerable,” he said. “Hunter Harrison has a long-standing reputation as a foe to labour forces. I’ve seen his name written on many Canadian locomotive bathroom walls for many years. He will come to CSX and start closing yards, selling off short lines, and gutting our infrastructure. This serves as a short-sighted way to increase dividends, but does not serve the best interests of our country.”
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Thanks for posting that article, SD70M-2Dude. Not that I agree with all of the conclusions, but there are a lot of interesting facts in there. My biggest concern is operating trains in mountain territory without experienced crews. But the claimed decrease in accident rates -
Mr. Cej said CP has been the safest major railway in North America, measured by accident frequency, for 11 years. Under Mr. Harrison, the train accident frequency improved by 40 per cent to 0.97 per million train miles in 2016 from 1.69 in 2012.
- is interesting. I'd like to compare it with the NS rate.
- PDN.
It's the carrot and stick approach. Only without the carrot and a much bigger, heavier stick. All railroads at times go thru similar phases, enough that the companies that sell job insurance won't sell new or upgrade existing policies for employees on some railroads during those phases. EHH just seems to foster that heavy-handed approach more extremely and constantly than others.
Jeff
take with grain of salt
http://business.financialpost.com/news/transportation/the-other-side-of-hunter-harrisons-cp-legacy-white-collar-workers-driving-trains
He was an office worker who had been pushed into the railroading life against his will, just like hundreds of other white-collar CP employees.
These employees are being pulled away from their desk jobs on a regular basis to work as conductors and engineers, raising serious safety concerns and potentially putting themselves and others in harm’s way. They are often required to travel far from home on short notice, work gruelling hours with little training, and receive little to no extra compensation for their troubles.
Angry union workers say former chief executive Hunter Harrison is to blame. Significant job cuts during his tenure led to an “unsustainable” situation where non-unionized employees are forced to fill the gaps, said Doug Finnson, president of the Teamsters Canada Rail Conference (TCRC), which represents CP’s 3,000 unionized employees.
Dmacleotake with grain of salt http://business.financialpost.com/news/transportation/the-other-side-of-hunter-harrisons-cp-legacy-white-collar-workers-driving-trains He was an office worker who had been pushed into the railroading life against his will, just like hundreds of other white-collar CP employees. These employees are being pulled away from their desk jobs on a regular basis to work as conductors and engineers, raising serious safety concerns and potentially putting themselves and others in harm’s way. They are often required to travel far from home on short notice, work gruelling hours with little training, and receive little to no extra compensation for their troubles. Angry union workers say former chief executive Hunter Harrison is to blame. Significant job cuts during his tenure led to an “unsustainable” situation where non-unionized employees are forced to fill the gaps, said Doug Finnson, president of the Teamsters Canada Rail Conference (TCRC), which represents CP’s 3,000 unionized employees.
A number of years ago, when I was a non-contract employee, contract employees were picketed by employees of another carrier that was on strike and it resulted in my carrier using non-contract employees to perform the routine operating duties of the contract employees that would not cross the picket lines.
Operations continued for 3 to 4 days and then broke down as there is a lot off effort that is involved in identifying traffic properly and ensuring the company gets paid for the traffic that is handled. The underlying data stream that supported the operation was not staffed and arriving shipments could not be timely identified and accounted for. Ensuring payment for traffic handled was another problem as the 'Officer' crews didn't follow the procedures that were in place for ensuring payment. From a safety perspective, only officers that had come up through the ranks and had previously been qualified locomotive engineers were put on the task of operating locomotives; ground crews, however, weren't percieved as having need for any prior field railroad esperience - I don't know what the injury experience was and I am sure that there were injuries that just weren't reported.
Running a successful railroad operation is much more than just operating trains and switching cars.
In today's CSX (prior to EHH) there has been a continuing effort to cleanse non-contract status of those who have craft seniority and the experience gained in those crafts. How this would translate into Officer Crews in the EHH era remains to be seen.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I have worked with managers before. Most are utterly useless. Everything takes twice as long because you have to babysit them and second-guess everything they do to make sure they don't hurt/kill themselves by accident.
It's not that they are stupid people, it is just that they are being required to do a job they were not trained for and have no background or experience in. If I were placed in their job with no training I would be equally useless. But it's hard to run over yourself with a train while making phone calls or pushing paper in an office... like the article notes railway equipment is unforgiving.
It is surprising that more incidents have not occurred due to managers or other under-qualified personel running trains.
jeffhergert It's the carrot and stick approach. Only without the carrot and a much bigger, heavier stick. All railroads at times go thru similar phases, enough that the companies that sell job insurance won't sell new or upgrade existing policies for employees on some railroads during those phases. EHH just seems to foster that heavy-handed approach more extremely and constantly than others. Jeff
That's why we have the BRCF. This problem is far more widespread than EHH could ever hope to be, he is just the most flamboyant about it.
SD70M-2DudeIt is surprising that more incidents have not occurred due to managers or other under-qualified personel running trains.
They happen. They just become alternative facts.
In order to create a culture, change the world as we know it and everything else EHH is supposed to do, he must first report to work.
Multiple crediable sources at CSX HQ tell me that EHH hasn't even shown his face at HQ due to his health. Conducts everything via conference call.
The CSX BoD should be ashamed, buying damaged goods at a hefty price tag. If he was a contract employee he would have been fired for absenteeism at this point.
BigGrip In order to create a culture, change the world as we know it and everything else EHH is supposed to do, he must first report to work. Multiple crediable sources at CSX HQ tell me that EHH hasn't even shown his face at HQ due to his health. Conducts everything via conference call. The CSX BoD should be ashamed, buying damaged goods at a hefty price tag. If he was a contract employee he would have been fired for absenteeism at this point.
Speaking of absenteeism, management just pulled all the vacation days on the weekends (Fri, Sat, Sun) for the rest of the 2nd quarter. Stated that due to the massive layoff on the weekends they couldnt run trains.
Fact- They couldn't run trains due to lack of manpower in January but they still furloughed 40 more.
Fact- The numbers have been ran, layoffs are actually down compared to this time last year.
Fact- There will be a lot of folks in the attendance policy due to this. Think about it, I know of at least 3 getting married before June. I don't beleive for one instance they will cancel their wedding due to vacation days being taken away.
Fact- This shortage is due to CSX. They have had 130 people furloughed for over two years now. FRA states that if you haven't seen your territory in two years as a Conductor you are no longer qualified on that territory. They are in the process of bringing 20-30 back, but having to pay them to get requalified now when their services were needed months ago.
But its funny how the CEO doesn't have to abide by the same rules that we do.
Does the CEO have any idea of what the rules require of his employees, especially concerning qualification?
Johnny
rockymidlandrr BigGrip In order to create a culture, change the world as we know it and everything else EHH is supposed to do, he must first report to work. Multiple crediable sources at CSX HQ tell me that EHH hasn't even shown his face at HQ due to his health. Conducts everything via conference call. The CSX BoD should be ashamed, buying damaged goods at a hefty price tag. If he was a contract employee he would have been fired for absenteeism at this point. Speaking of absenteeism, management just pulled all the vacation days on the weekends (Fri, Sat, Sun) for the rest of the 2nd quarter. Stated that due to the massive layoff on the weekends they couldnt run trains. Fact- They couldn't run trains due to lack of manpower in January but they still furloughed 40 more. Fact- The numbers have been ran, layoffs are actually down compared to this time last year. Fact- There will be a lot of folks in the attendance policy due to this. Think about it, I know of at least 3 getting married before June. I don't beleive for one instance they will cancel their wedding due to vacation days being taken away. Fact- This shortage is due to CSX. They have had 130 people furloughed for over two years now. FRA states that if you haven't seen your territory in two years as a Conductor you are no longer qualified on that territory. They are in the process of bringing 20-30 back, but having to pay them to get requalified now when their services were needed months ago. But its funny how the CEO doesn't have to abide by the same rules that we do.
It used to be when calling employees back from furlough, 80-90% of those furloughed would return. In recent years that number has been in the 20-30% range. Just calling furloughs back doesn't fill the vacancies and then the crunch to hire and train just so at the next blip in the metrics the new hires can be furloughed to.
It would be interesting to ask questions about this personnel situation - crews, but also EHH - at the next annual shareholders meeting . . .
BaltACD rockymidlandrr BigGrip In order to create a culture, change the world as we know it and everything else EHH is supposed to do, he must first report to work. Multiple crediable sources at CSX HQ tell me that EHH hasn't even shown his face at HQ due to his health. Conducts everything via conference call. The CSX BoD should be ashamed, buying damaged goods at a hefty price tag. If he was a contract employee he would have been fired for absenteeism at this point. Speaking of absenteeism, management just pulled all the vacation days on the weekends (Fri, Sat, Sun) for the rest of the 2nd quarter. Stated that due to the massive layoff on the weekends they couldnt run trains. Fact- They couldn't run trains due to lack of manpower in January but they still furloughed 40 more. Fact- The numbers have been ran, layoffs are actually down compared to this time last year. Fact- There will be a lot of folks in the attendance policy due to this. Think about it, I know of at least 3 getting married before June. I don't beleive for one instance they will cancel their wedding due to vacation days being taken away. Fact- This shortage is due to CSX. They have had 130 people furloughed for over two years now. FRA states that if you haven't seen your territory in two years as a Conductor you are no longer qualified on that territory. They are in the process of bringing 20-30 back, but having to pay them to get requalified now when their services were needed months ago. But its funny how the CEO doesn't have to abide by the same rules that we do. "It used to be when calling employees back from furlough, 80-90% of those furloughed would return. In recent years that number has been in the 20-30% range. Just calling furloughs back doesn't fill the vacancies and then the crunch to hire and train just so at the next blip in the metrics the new hires can be furloughed to."
"It used to be when calling employees back from furlough, 80-90% of those furloughed would return. In recent years that number has been in the 20-30% range. Just calling furloughs back doesn't fill the vacancies and then the crunch to hire and train just so at the next blip in the metrics the new hires can be furloughed to."
And This: Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Wednesday, March 15, 2017 5:54 PM
"It would be interesting to ask questions about this personnel situation - crews, but also EHH - at the next annual shareholders meeting . . . "
The next meeting of the CSX Board of Directors, seems to be one of those places "...OH! to be a fly on the wall..." and it would be an interesting observing, and listening session. At the very least, it seems that the CSX BofD has put one of its' corporate appendages in the proverbial wringer.
Ya know folks we have been watching this scenario for many years. Company X hires who they think is the biggest and brightest CEO who then drives said company into bankruptcy and gets millions in the process. Think Sears, and perhaps J C Penny as a couple of examples. Both were once flourishing corporations with appropriate rewards to their stockholders. Now, those two are no more than a shadow in the marketplace.
Was it lazy employees who drove the companies to that point? Nope, it was the idiots at the top. They got the "golden parachutes", or as the song said, "she got the gold mine and I got the shaft". Employees and the public are the ones who ultimately suffer the misfortunes. Nuff said.
Norm
BaltACD rockymidlandrr BigGrip In order to create a culture, change the world as we know it and everything else EHH is supposed to do, he must first report to work. Multiple crediable sources at CSX HQ tell me that EHH hasn't even shown his face at HQ due to his health. Conducts everything via conference call. The CSX BoD should be ashamed, buying damaged goods at a hefty price tag. If he was a contract employee he would have been fired for absenteeism at this point. Speaking of absenteeism, management just pulled all the vacation days on the weekends (Fri, Sat, Sun) for the rest of the 2nd quarter. Stated that due to the massive layoff on the weekends they couldnt run trains. Fact- They couldn't run trains due to lack of manpower in January but they still furloughed 40 more. Fact- The numbers have been ran, layoffs are actually down compared to this time last year. Fact- There will be a lot of folks in the attendance policy due to this. Think about it, I know of at least 3 getting married before June. I don't beleive for one instance they will cancel their wedding due to vacation days being taken away. Fact- This shortage is due to CSX. They have had 130 people furloughed for over two years now. FRA states that if you haven't seen your territory in two years as a Conductor you are no longer qualified on that territory. They are in the process of bringing 20-30 back, but having to pay them to get requalified now when their services were needed months ago. But its funny how the CEO doesn't have to abide by the same rules that we do. It used to be when calling employees back from furlough, 80-90% of those furloughed would return. In recent years that number has been in the 20-30% range. Just calling furloughs back doesn't fill the vacancies and then the crunch to hire and train just so at the next blip in the metrics the new hires can be furloughed to.
I can't blame those that don't return at all. Who would want to have to worry week to week they had a job or not. Out of those they have called back, I would expect about half to return and other half to tell them to shove the railroad where the sun doesn't shine.
BigGripIn order to create a culture, change the world as we know it and everything else EHH is supposed to do, he must first report to work. Multiple crediable sources at CSX HQ tell me that EHH hasn't even shown his face at HQ due to his health. Conducts everything via conference call. [snipped - PDN]
Multiple crediable sources at CSX HQ tell me that EHH hasn't even shown his face at HQ due to his health. Conducts everything via conference call. [snipped - PDN]
Globe & Mail keeps going after CP:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/cp-draws-fire-for-using-managers-to-operate-trains-following-collision-in-bc/article34315359/?arc404=true
Note that the CIRB (Canadian Industrial Relations Board, kind of like the federal supreme court for labour disputes) has consistently ruled against CP, but the matter is still ongoing because the Company doesn't seem to be obeying their rulings.
Paul_D_North_Jr BigGrip In order to create a culture, change the world as we know it and everything else EHH is supposed to do, he must first report to work. Multiple crediable sources at CSX HQ tell me that EHH hasn't even shown his face at HQ due to his health. Conducts everything via conference call. [snipped - PDN] Heck, I understand that at IC, CN, and CP, he's had a computer at his house, and micro-managed the DS and train movements from there. Why should this be any different ? So maybe that's his intended mode of operation. Try explaining anything to that "Wizard of Oz" ! - PDN.
BigGrip In order to create a culture, change the world as we know it and everything else EHH is supposed to do, he must first report to work. Multiple crediable sources at CSX HQ tell me that EHH hasn't even shown his face at HQ due to his health. Conducts everything via conference call. [snipped - PDN]
Heck, I understand that at IC, CN, and CP, he's had a computer at his house, and micro-managed the DS and train movements from there. Why should this be any different ? So maybe that's his intended mode of operation. Try explaining anything to that "Wizard of Oz" !
Your petty sniping is unbecoming. EHH knows a lot more about management than ANY of us. Wait and see. If CSX were so efficient already, why is its OR so high?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimm EHH knows a lot more about management than ANY of us.
The question is what kind of management does he know a lot about - efficient railroad management, or maximum return for the investors management...
Past experience seems to indicate he's far better a wringing out a return for the investors...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68 schlimm EHH knows a lot more about management than ANY of us. The question is what kind of management does he know a lot about - efficient railroad management, or maximum return for the investors management... Past experience seems to indicate he's far better a wringing out a return for the investors...
As I recall, that is the point of capitalism. Some folks on here have suggested I am a socialist because I am critical of the supremacy of the profit motive. I am saying you can't have your true capitalist cake and eat it (service, treating employees decently, etc.) too.
schlimm tree68 schlimm EHH knows a lot more about management than ANY of us. The question is what kind of management does he know a lot about - efficient railroad management, or maximum return for the investors management... Past experience seems to indicate he's far better a wringing out a return for the investors... As I recall, that is the point of capitalism. Some folks on here have suggested I am a socialist because I am critical of the supremacy of the profit motive. I am saying you can't have your true capitalist cake and eat it (service, treating employees decently, etc.) too.
Sure one can.. in fact one must. Employee and customer turnover is very expensive. Can't afford to continually be hiring and firing..
schlimmAs I recall, that is the point of capitalism. Some folks on here have suggested I am a socialist because I am critical of the supremacy of the profit motive. I am saying you can't have your true capitalist cake and eat it (service, treating employees decently, etc.) too.
It all comes down to what one wants out of the system. A capitalist can run a business with the intention to make it grow - put some profits into improvements and pay the rest to the investors.
Or a capitalist can run a business with the intention to wring every possible cent out of it, improvements be d****d.
Loggers learned long ago that if they wanted to stay in business, they had to plant trees to replace those they had cut. I get the impression that folks like EHH would consider the expense of planting new trees as an extravagance that cut into the bottom line. Might better sell the land.
But the loggers and tree planters aren't the same people.. EHH is a "logger" he probably knows that replanting will need to take place later, but his job as leader now is to take care of the logging. In a smaller business the logger and the planter is often the same person out of necessity.
UlrichBut the loggers and tree planters aren't the same people...
But they may well work for the same company, which wants to be able to come back in 25 years and cut more lumber...
UlrichBut the loggers and tree planters aren't the same people.. EHH is a "logger" he probably knows that replanting will need to take place later, but his job as leader now is to take care of the logging. In a smaller business the logger and the planter is often the same person out of necessity.
EHH fancys himself as a clear cutter. Trump should have named him Secretary of Transportation. Conestoga wagon builders would rejoice.
At CN Claud Mongeau came after EHH and Luc Jobin recently took over from Mongeau due to the former's health issues. Both of EHH's successors at CN could arguably be called planters, in keeping with the above analogy. There's a time to cut and there's a time to plant.. and as far as business goes there are CEO's who specialize in one or the other. Rarely does one find an individual who is equally adept at both. Some CEO's are agents of rapid change while others are more mainstream caretaker types who grow the business without rocking the boat too much. We need both types.
Ulrich Sure one can.. in fact one must. Employee and customer turnover is very expensive. Can't afford to continually be hiring and firing..
Especially when arbitrators un-fire people, and give them their jobs back with back-pay.
Also I have a question that I have posed several times in one way, shape or form over the past few years in EHH-related discussions on the forum, but have never gotten a complete answer to:
Cost cutting and management change is necessary from time to time in any industry, but why must Hunter Harrison and his subordinates go about it with a condescending, belittling and disrespectful attitude towards the employees? What is gained through that approach that could not be gained without it?
The various news articles posted earlier in this thread give a very good description of what I mean by "condescending, belittling and disrespectful attitude".
SD70M-2DudeCost cutting and management change is necessary from time to time in any industry, but why must Hunter Harrison and his subordinates go about it with a condescending, belittling and disrespectful attitude towards the employees? What is gained through that approach that could not be gained without it? The various news articles posted earlier in this thread give a very good description of what I mean by "condescending, belittling and disrespectful attitude".
A hole's by nature are and always will act like A holes. If subordinates hitch their star to an A hole they will also act like an A hole to get at-a-boys from the head A hole.
BaltACD A hole's by nature are and always will act like A holes. If subordinates hitch their star to an A hole they will also act like an A hole to get at-a-boys from the head A hole.
Describes Creel and Jamie Boychuk to a tee. They even married into the Harrison family.
Literally cannot believe I just read this. My god.
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
SD70M-2Dude They even married into the Harrison family.
Harrison's daughters: Libby is Mrs. Earl Julo and Cayce is Mrs. Quentin Judge.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/careers/careers-leadership/cps-hunter-harrison-there-is-a-new-sheriff-in-town/article6122334/?page=all
http://obits.dignitymemorial.com/dignity-memorial/obituary.aspx?n=Sydney-Harrison&lc=2230&pid=179848097&mid=6911136
SD70M-2Dude Ulrich Sure one can.. in fact one must. Employee and customer turnover is very expensive. Can't afford to continually be hiring and firing.. Especially when arbitrators un-fire people, and give them their jobs back with back-pay. Also I have a question that I have posed several times in one way, shape or form over the past few years in EHH-related discussions on the forum, but have never gotten a complete answer to: Cost cutting and management change is necessary from time to time in any industry, but why must Hunter Harrison and his subordinates go about it with a condescending, belittling and disrespectful attitude towards the employees? What is gained through that approach that could not be gained without it? The various news articles posted earlier in this thread give a very good description of what I mean by "condescending, belittling and disrespectful attitude".
It's a rough business... I'm treated that way every day of the week by various parties and don't worry about it. It is what it is.. so long as nobody gets hurt and the money rolls in, that's what its all about.
SD70M-2DudeEspecially when arbitrators un-fire people, and give them their jobs back with back-pay.
Amazing how arbitrators discern real facts and rules application as well as application of laws of the land to the cases brought before them.
Similar to how appelate judges review cases and their compliance with the laws under which they were prosecuted as well as the compliance of those laws to the Constitution.
Regal fiat in the USA ended with the defeat of King George III and the British in 1783.
Sure, in cases where the employer is in violation. The law applies to everyone.
wanswheel SD70M-2Dude They even married into the Harrison family. Harrison's daughters: Libby is Mrs. Earl Julo and Cayce is Mrs. Quentin Judge. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/careers/careers-leadership/cps-hunter-harrison-there-is-a-new-sheriff-in-town/article6122334/?page=all http://obits.dignitymemorial.com/dignity-memorial/obituary.aspx?n=Sydney-Harrison&lc=2230&pid=179848097&mid=6911136
I'm told Boychuk married Harrison's niece. The story about Creel may have been wrong
Ulrich SD70M-2Dude Ulrich Sure one can.. in fact one must. Employee and customer turnover is very expensive. Can't afford to continually be hiring and firing.. Especially when arbitrators un-fire people, and give them their jobs back with back-pay. Also I have a question that I have posed several times in one way, shape or form over the past few years in EHH-related discussions on the forum, but have never gotten a complete answer to: Cost cutting and management change is necessary from time to time in any industry, but why must Hunter Harrison and his subordinates go about it with a condescending, belittling and disrespectful attitude towards the employees? What is gained through that approach that could not be gained without it? The various news articles posted earlier in this thread give a very good description of what I mean by "condescending, belittling and disrespectful attitude". It's a rough business... I'm treated that way every day of the week by various parties and don't worry about it. It is what it is.. so long as nobody gets hurt and the money rolls in, that's what its all about.
So, suck it up and shut up? The reason we have unions is because workers decided that wasn't a good option.
And people do get hurt, physically and emotionally. Offhand I can think of 2 incidents that caused 4 deaths on the job and 1 severe injury that resulted from cutbacks and poor management while EHH was at CN. And being stressed out from having your work life screwed around with causes problems that follow people home.
And that still doesn't answer my question: What is gained through that approach that could not be gained otherwise?
SD70M-2Dude Ulrich SD70M-2Dude Ulrich Sure one can.. in fact one must. Employee and customer turnover is very expensive. Can't afford to continually be hiring and firing.. Especially when arbitrators un-fire people, and give them their jobs back with back-pay. Also I have a question that I have posed several times in one way, shape or form over the past few years in EHH-related discussions on the forum, but have never gotten a complete answer to: Cost cutting and management change is necessary from time to time in any industry, but why must Hunter Harrison and his subordinates go about it with a condescending, belittling and disrespectful attitude towards the employees? What is gained through that approach that could not be gained without it? The various news articles posted earlier in this thread give a very good description of what I mean by "condescending, belittling and disrespectful attitude". It's a rough business... I'm treated that way every day of the week by various parties and don't worry about it. It is what it is.. so long as nobody gets hurt and the money rolls in, that's what its all about. So, suck it up and shut up? The reason we have unions is because workers decided that wasn't a good option. And people do get hurt, physically and emotionally. Offhand I can think of 2 incidents that caused 4 deaths on the job and 1 severe injury that resulted from cutbacks and poor management while EHH was at CN. And being stressed out from having your work life screwed around with causes problems that follow people home. And that still doesn't answer my question: What is gained through that approach that could not be gained otherwise?
I get that.. and I'm no fan of bad behavior either. Nor would I advocate sucking it up. Personally it just doesn't touch me.. (unless its my wife or kids doing the misbehaving). Unions obviously don't change rude and insensitive behaviors. so long as the bad "behaver" does his/her job and contributes to the bottom line without hurting anyone then I'll tolerate it. Lots of different perosnalities in the workplace, and you're not going to change anyone so may as well not let it bother you. OH yeah, and to answer your question, there's really nothing gained by bad bahavior like this.. but what are you going to do.. people are the way they are.
One cannot understand where railroaders come from unless they themselves have worked in the discipline and fire without cause, guilty until reluctantly proven innocent, and do as I say or else environment.
10000 feet and no dynamics? Today is going to be a good day ...
schlimmEHH knows a lot more about management than ANY of us. Wait and see. If CSX were so efficient already, why is its OR so high?
It's OR isn't high. Actually, it's at an all time low over the past couple years.
Why? Because in the past decade, CSX has implemented an operating plan based on the same principles as EHH's opeartions at IC, CN and CP.
NS, UP and BNSF have all done the same, as well.
Perhaps the only thing EHH likes to do that the other roads don't is run "general purpose" trains. That is, there intermingle types of traffic on trains. For example, filling out a merchandise train with a block of coal, or moving a block of merchandise traffic on an intermodal train.
That's a tough one because it requires you have the time, space and capacity on your network to accomodate the extra work in the train schedule. Exactly how much of this he'll be able to implement on CSX will be the interesting thing to watch.
Given that his style is much more authoritative and detail oriented, it'll be interesting to see if that will help close the gap between the operating plan and actual performance.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
oltmanndIt's OR isn't high. Actually, it's at an all time low over the past couple years. Why? Because in the past decade, CSX has implemented an operating plan based on the same principles as EHH's opeartions at IC, CN and CP. NS, UP and BNSF have all done the same, as well.
And there may well lie the rub, if you will.
EHH may be expected to generate the same type of returns he got at IC, CN, and CP, but will have to do so after many of the strategies he used at those roads have already been applied at CSX.
It'll be an uphill battle, and may lead to even more drastic measures in order to achieve the goal.
Given that the other railroads are still recovering from what he did to them (per previous posts), things may not bode well for CSX.
Guess we'll see if he has any other tricks up his sleeve, or if he is a one-trick pony that won't be able to deliver. Stay tuned?
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
zugmann Guess we'll see if he has any other tricks up his sleeve, or if he is a one-trick pony that won't be able to deliver. Stay tuned?
It's a very good one trick that pony learned. Other's horses have learned the trick, though. It is no longer a new or unique trick.
As you know, part of the problem with the RR today is management turnover. Can EHH teach the young'uns better and faster? Or, will he merely alienate them? We shall see....
oltmannd schlimm: EHH knows a lot more about management than ANY of us. Wait and see. If CSX were so efficient already, why is its OR so high? It's OR isn't high. Actually, it's at an all time low over the past couple years.
schlimm: EHH knows a lot more about management than ANY of us. Wait and see. If CSX were so efficient already, why is its OR so high?
2016 CSX operating ratio = 69.4 percent. 2016 CP record-low operating ratio = 58.6 percent
schlimm oltmannd schlimm: EHH knows a lot more about management than ANY of us. Wait and see. If CSX were so efficient already, why is its OR so high? It's OR isn't high. Actually, it's at an all time low over the past couple years. 2016 CSX operating ratio = 69.4 percent. 2016 CP record-low operating ratio = 58.6 percent
Apples and oranges. Length of haul, traffic mix, highway competition, Labor rate with fringe. All different.
What was CSX's OR in the 1990's when EHH started doing his thing? Around 90. Now below 70. 20 point drop in 20 years. Just lucky?
oltmannd schlimm oltmannd schlimm: EHH knows a lot more about management than ANY of us. Wait and see. If CSX were so efficient already, why is its OR so high? It's OR isn't high. Actually, it's at an all time low over the past couple years. 2016 CSX operating ratio = 69.4 percent. 2016 CP record-low operating ratio = 58.6 percent Apples and oranges. Length of haul, traffic mix, highway competition, Labor rate with fringe. All different. What was CSX's OR in the 1990's when EHH started doing his thing? Around 90. Now below 70. 20 point drop in 20 years. Just lucky?
In 2010, prior to EHH, CP's OR was 81.3. Over a 20 point drop in 5.5 years. Just lucky?
schlimm oltmannd schlimm oltmannd schlimm: EHH knows a lot more about management than ANY of us. Wait and see. If CSX were so efficient already, why is its OR so high? It's OR isn't high. Actually, it's at an all time low over the past couple years. 2016 CSX operating ratio = 69.4 percent. 2016 CP record-low operating ratio = 58.6 percent Apples and oranges. Length of haul, traffic mix, highway competition, Labor rate with fringe. All different. What was CSX's OR in the 1990's when EHH started doing his thing? Around 90. Now below 70. 20 point drop in 20 years. Just lucky? In 2010, prior to EHH, CP's OR was 81.3. Over a 20 point drop in 5.5 years. Just lucky?
Canadian exchange rate.
Financial accounting regulations require conversion of revenues and expenses to a uniform dollar value. In the case of CP and CN when you read their financial reports they are in Canadian dollars.
Canadian railroads have different requirements with regards to taxes and benefits which cause the accounting for operationg ratios to bedifferent on different sides of the border. The Canadian rules of the game oare diffeernt than the US rules of the game. You can compare trends of OR's or OR's between roads on the same side of the border, but comparing a US road's OR to a Canadian road's OR, the Canadian road with have a lower for an equivalent operation.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
BaltACDIn 2010, prior to EHH, CP's OR was 81.3. Over a 20 point drop in 5.5 years. Just lucky? Canadian exchange rate.
Irrelevant.
kgbw49 Financial accounting regulations require conversion of revenues and expenses to a uniform dollar value. In the case of CP and CN when you read their financial reports they are in Canadian dollars.
Of course! But, "twelve of the 60 blue-chip companies in the S&P/TSX 60 index currently use U.S. GAAP, including BlackBerry Ltd., Magna International Inc., Canadian National Railway Co. and Canadian Pacific Railway Ltd." So it is apples and apples.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/international-accounting-standards-best-for-canada-executive-says/article23960882/
Ulrich I get that.. and I'm no fan of bad behavior either. Nor would I advocate sucking it up. Personally it just doesn't touch me.. (unless its my wife or kids doing the misbehaving). Unions obviously don't change rude and insensitive behaviors. so long as the bad "behaver" does his/her job and contributes to the bottom line without hurting anyone then I'll tolerate it. Lots of different perosnalities in the workplace, and you're not going to change anyone so may as well not let it bother you. OH yeah, and to answer your question, there's really nothing gained by bad bahavior like this.. but what are you going to do.. people are the way they are.
True enough, and I believe that it is not just that you gain nothing from this kind of attitude but also that it creates unnecessary negative changes in how people work. An example from CN (and presumably CP) is that people do whatever they can to avoid spending time at work (filing notice for rest on the road, taking the maximum hours off that they can when they get home, taking as many personal days off as they can, all of which are legal and provided for in our collective agreement), with the end result being that more employees are needed to run the same number of trains, or that trains sit waiting for crews to come available.
Not a very efficient use of assets (workers), but cracking the whip only goes so far...
schlimm BaltACD In 2010, prior to EHH, CP's OR was 81.3. Over a 20 point drop in 5.5 years. Just lucky? Canadian exchange rate. Irrelevant.
BaltACD In 2010, prior to EHH, CP's OR was 81.3. Over a 20 point drop in 5.5 years. Just lucky? Canadian exchange rate.
There is no denying that CP's operating ratio dropped dramatically under EHH, but that was very easy to do, given how the previous management ran the railroad. Everyone in the lower ranks could see the glaring inefficiencies and stupid decisions, and initially welcomed the chance to run the railway properly, hoping that maybe EHH had mellowed from his vindictive attitude at CN.
I suspect any dramatic lowering of the OR at CSX will be good for NS, as they pick up disgruntled shippers. And that will be to the long term detriment of CSX.
The Canadian exchange rate is of course irrelevant.
Yes. It is apples and apples. They use GAAP and financial statements take all their US dollar revenues and expenses and convert them to Canadian dollars to combine with their Canadian revenues and expenses.
See Note 1 to the CN financial statements:
http://cn.ca/-/media/Files/Investors/Investor-Financial-Quarterly/Investor-Financial-Quarterly-2016/Year-End-Results/2016-Full-Year-Statements-en.pdf?la=en
See Note 1 to the CP financial statements:
http://s21.q4cdn.com/736796105/files/doc_financials/Annual-Report/2016/March-9/CP-Annual-Report-2016.pdf
There can be a gain or loss on the exchange rate. It is usually a gain as the Canadian dollar is usually lower than the US dollar, so converting one US dollar to Canadian currency yields $1+ Canadian dollars. But that difference of both revenues and expenses for the "+" part is reported in Other Income.
That means their Operating Ratio calculation is apples to apples in terms of how much Operating Revenue is used up by Operating Expenses.
SD70M-2Dude Ulrich I get that.. and I'm no fan of bad behavior either. Nor would I advocate sucking it up. Personally it just doesn't touch me.. (unless its my wife or kids doing the misbehaving). Unions obviously don't change rude and insensitive behaviors. so long as the bad "behaver" does his/her job and contributes to the bottom line without hurting anyone then I'll tolerate it. Lots of different perosnalities in the workplace, and you're not going to change anyone so may as well not let it bother you. OH yeah, and to answer your question, there's really nothing gained by bad bahavior like this.. but what are you going to do.. people are the way they are. True enough, and I believe that it is not just that you gain nothing from this kind of attitude but also that it creates unnecessary negative changes in how people work. An example from CN (and presumably CP) is that people do whatever they can to avoid spending time at work (filing notice for rest on the road, taking the maximum hours off that they can when they get home, taking as many personal days off as they can, all of which are legal and provided for in our collective agreement), with the end result being that more employees are needed to run the same number of trains, or that trains sit waiting for crews to come available. Not a very efficient use of assets (workers), but cracking the whip only goes so far...
There's a happy balance in there somewhere. Overly nice and respectful is almost as bad as chef Gordon Ramsey rude. A good manager walks that fine line between the two.
Creel obviously recognizes that the culture within CP has been tainted by Harrison's obsession to cut costs. It will take years to improve morale within the company. It will cost the company millions to settle all the lawsuits it faces over wrongful dismissal.
No. He just did what CSX, NS, BNSF and UP did - which is the same as what he did at IC and CN.
It's all done. Everywhere. Everyone has done PCS. EHH gets credit for doing it first and doing it the most. But, there's no "there" there at CSX to do!
PCS?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Ulrich At CN Claud Mongeau came after EHH and Luc Jobin recently took over from Mongeau due to the former's health issues. Both of EHH's successors at CN could arguably be called planters, in keeping with the above analogy. There's a time to cut and there's a time to plant.. and as far as business goes there are CEO's who specialize in one or the other. Rarely does one find an individual who is equally adept at both. Some CEO's are agents of rapid change while others are more mainstream caretaker types who grow the business without rocking the boat too much. We need both types.
Interesting article in Railway Age about live in a post-EHH Canadian Pacific
http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/freight/class-i/precision-railroading-with-a-humane-face.html?channel=50
cprtrain True that there are different management styles. HH was a disaster at CP. They lost some major accounts in the last few months due to poor service. He ran the railroad into the ground, destroyed service and morale. It will take CP a decade to recover. The employees who were sacked have had their lives destroyed. May he rot in hell.
True that there are different management styles. HH was a disaster at CP. They lost some major accounts in the last few months due to poor service. He ran the railroad into the ground, destroyed service and morale. It will take CP a decade to recover. The employees who were sacked have had their lives destroyed. May he rot in hell.
+1
cprtrainHe ran the railroad into the ground, destroyed service and morale.
And this goes back to his want/need to wring every last dollar out of the railroad - and into the hands of the investors.
Murphy Siding PCS?
SD70M-2Dude cprtrain True that there are different management styles. HH was a disaster at CP. They lost some major accounts in the last few months due to poor service. He ran the railroad into the ground, destroyed service and morale. It will take CP a decade to recover. The employees who were sacked have had their lives destroyed. May he rot in hell. +1
+1 from me as well.
I can't quickly find the thread that's mainly about about E. Hunter Harrison being hired by CSX, so I'll post this here as being closer than the other 2 current ones:
http://baconsrebellion.com/john-fishwick-csx-train-robbery/
Short version: It's about lawyer John P. Fishwick, Jr. (yes, a son of former N&W President John Fishwick) objecting to EHH"s pay package, calling it "repulsive" and "exhorbitant", having a Facebook page on it, etc.:
"He has taken up a new cause, blocking the out-sized compensation package of Hunter Harrison, a 72-year-old executive hired by CSX Corp. As a CSX shareholder, Fishwick objects to the company reimbursing Harrison $84 million in compensation he forfeited by leaving Canadian Pacific."
Paul_D_North_Jr I can't quickly find the thread that's mainly about about E. Hunter Harrison being hired by CSX, so I'll post this here as being closer than the other 2 current ones: John Fishwick Takes on Railroad Mogul in “CSX Train Robbery” http://baconsrebellion.com/john-fishwick-csx-train-robbery/ Short version: It's about lawyer John P. Fishwick, Jr. (yes, a son of former N&W President John Fishwick) objecting to EHH"s pay package, calling it "repulsive" and "exhorbitant", having a Facebook page on it, etc.: "He has taken up a new cause, blocking the out-sized compensation package of Hunter Harrison, a 72-year-old executive hired by CSX Corp. As a CSX shareholder, Fishwick objects to the company reimbursing Harrison $84 million in compensation he forfeited by leaving Canadian Pacific." - PDN.
Seems as if Mr. Fishwick is about to fling a polecat into the middle of the family picnic.
[Just what this 'affair' needs, another side-show.]
Maybe more like a cowboy interrupting a 'train robbery' - might not win, but they'll know he was there.
Wonder if a sheriff-type will eventually show up . . . ?
There are several unknowns about what Hunter is doing. Here on the A&WP subdivision CSX is installing PTC satellite antenna and other equipment from Palmetto - LaGrange at least. CSX is running very fast trains with extra power on front to maintain speed and then very slow trains. How this affects PTC implementation is unknown ?
With the PTC install the railroads have a deadline to make and even EHH and his disdain for capital improvements can not stop that one from happening at all. He attitude so reminds me of and this one is a current CEO the United CEO and how they have handled the passengers issues recently. He is tone deaf to everything that happens to his railroad in his pursuit to his holy grail of a below 60% OR. He could care less of customer complaints labor issues just drive it down then I'm out of here and leave the pieces for the next guy to pick up.
Back around 2008, the EJ&E was acquired by CN. Some pretty stringent monitoring of grade crossing signals and traffic impacts of the additional trains were required, as a result of either the environmental studies and/ or STB conditions imposed as a result of local community opposition (Barrington comes to mind, IIRC).
After a while (2010 or so) it was discovered that CN was either not doing that properly, or was not correctly reporting or altering the data/ results. The STB got pretty upset at that, to the point that it imposed a (nominal) fine and a consulting firm (HDR, IIRC) was appointed to audit and validate those results. Again, as I recall, the corporate culture was implicated as one cause or factor in that happening.
EHH was the CEO of CN at the time.
Here's the link to the thread here on this at the time -
"CN Fined for under reporting delays to auto traffic on EJE":
http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/p/184327/2016253.aspx#2016253
Goes hand-in-hand with what one industry official told me last week regarding EHH's time at CN:
"CN had a solid infrastructure with 6500’ sidings every 8-10 miles, makes it easier to rip one up and relay it to create 12000’ sidings every 15-20 miles."
That would be consistent with a philosophy of trains twice as long and half as frequent ~= same volume.
..at a lower cost
Creating 12,000' sidings is rarely as simple as using the rail from the 6,000' siding 7 miles away. Geography in the form of rivers, hills and such can make creating a wider grade prohibitively expensive before achieving that length. In easier terrain, usually extensively farmed, grade crossings every mile or so are typical. At least one, maybe two, will have to be closed so a train waiting for a meet won't have road traffic blocked. Getting permission for the closure from the local authorities despite protesting locals takes much time and effort.
Bruce Kelly "CN had a solid infrastructure with 6500’ sidings every 8-10 miles, makes it easier to rip one up and relay it to create 12000’ sidings every 15-20 miles."
Paid for by the Canadian taxpayer I might add. And the 15-20 mile spacing of sidings turned out to be a royal headache after business spiked and the "half-as-frequent" longer trains mentioned by Mr. North became just as frequent as the old ~6,000' ones, only with half the sidings to put them in...
Goes back to believing in the future of your business, and your ability to attract more of it.
Grade crossings, including farmer or private crossings, aren't always closed when they're in the way of sidings. Take a look at just one sliver of BNSF's Northern Corridor, the ex-GN main line segments between Wenatchee and Spokane, WA, and between Sandpoint and Bonners Ferry, ID, and you'll find the majority of passing sidings have one, two, and in some cases three road crossings through them. And yes, these create considerable headaches for operations. First train to arrive for a meet typically holds back until the other train is close, but if the clearing train has a fleet coming against it or something hot coming from way behind (like Amtrak or a Z9), it may have to pull into the clear and cut crossings. Much time lost doing that and patching things back together, especially when a ride isn't available to help. In the case of EHH's roads (he also pulled up sidings in order to extend others at CP), I can't tell you whether they forced the closure or rerouting of some crossings, or forced CN or CP to engineer their siding extensions to avoid blocking crossings.
Holding back to avoid blocking crossings is usually done by slowing down enough so the meet happens promptly. Stopping and waiting before reaching the siding frequently means blocking other crossings.
The "blocking other crossings" scenario would apply to a couple of the approaches to sidings between Sandpoint and Bonners Ferry, but not all. And out there on the Columbia River Sub between Wenatchee and Spokane, coming to a complete stop short of the siding will, in most instances, mean nothing more than leaving the train standing in the middle of some coulee or wheat field or patch of forest until the dispatcher tells them, "that other guy's getting close...start pulling in."
Harrison is wearing the black hat and ishwick is wearing the white hat. I hope that the good guy wins. Harrison is nothing but a carpet bagger.
Hunter and his minions achieved their goals by letting a lot of "unprofitable" business slip away. During my 30+ year career at CP, Canadian Tire was one of the top two or three customers, evolving from trailers to containers. Only rarely did you see Canadian Tire containers on a CN train. CP even loaded lumber in eastbound Canadian Tire containers, which would have otherwise returned empty to the distrbution centre.
This morning, Easter Sunday, at a crossing on the CN Main,I watched a train which consisted mainly of Canadian Tire containers, reminded me of CP intermodal hotshots in the pre-Hunter days. When you tell your biggest customers you don't want their business, what's left?
CPRcst,
From information I gather on line CN is eating CP's lunch and taking customers Harrison said were not worthhy of keeping and profiting from that. Chasing them away made no sense other than to get the OR down to 60. That indicates he was only looking out for the stockholders. It will take the Beaver a lot of time to rebuild the dam and raise new kits. Hopefully, Beavers are resilient crittes.
I have this gut feeling Harrison is going to fail at CSX. Don't ask me why, it's just there in my mind.
Hubris ?
Norm48327 I have this gut feeling Harrison is going to fail at CSX. Don't ask me why, it's just there in my mind.
After closing a few small humps, dead silence.
I'll go with "Who knew operating CSX was so complicated?"
First quarter earnings are released April 19.
https://www.csx.com/index.cfm/investors/news-releases/?rptyr=2012&article=2256136
In 20 years time, MBA students will analyze Harrison's strategies and realize that "short term gain" does not equal "long term growth". I've seen hundreds of Canadian Tire containers moving on CN. CP drove Canadian Tire to CN and have lost the business. Cutting costs = cutting service. Cutting staff = losing experience. Firing staff without cause = destroyed morale. Harrison did all 3 at CP. Three strikes and Hunter strikes out. It will take CP a decade to recover.
Canadian Tire purposely diversifies its vendor base, hence containers on both CN and CP. Both railroads enjoy better routing in different markets.. i.e. makes more sense to use CN to Edmonton and northern AB markets and CP to Calgary and southern AB markets. Canadian Tire has been using both railroads for years.
My husband remembers about 20 years ago a CEO being run out for spending to much in double track improvements. IIRC he said his name was Robert Krebs or something like that and was the head of the BNSF at the time. The BOD told him he was spending way to much money double tracking the ATSF transcon all over the system they said the traffic levels did not justify the spending. They kept telling him be more like EHH in fact cut back on capital spending. He refused and was fired. However 2 years after he was released the traffic he had been building for showed up and the BOD had egg on its face as all that so called excess capacity was gone and they needed more of it fast. I guess the Boards of these get it now companies need to realize is play the long game not what the Street wants. These days it is I want results now not in 5 years. So people that can see thru the fog and see what is needed in the future are cast aside for people that promise to get you ahead right now regardless if they crash the plane.
Being held accountable to Wall St can be a pain for CEO's who have the vision to look ahead and foresee changes in the economy. That's not saying the stockholders shouldn't have input. They, too, have an interest, but unless they are well informed regarding economic trends their opinions and demands may be wrong. Of course, so could the decisions of the CEO. Only time will tell who was right.
Not having to answer to anyone but Berkshire Hathaway gives the CEO of BNSF an advantage. He doesn't have to answer to anyone but the Buffett crew. As long as they are happy he's covered. The door can swing both ways.
oltmannd Norm48327 I have this gut feeling Harrison is going to fail at CSX. Don't ask me why, it's just there in my mind. After closing a few small humps, dead silence. I'll go with "Who knew operating CSX was so complicated?"
It hasn't been "dead silence". Lots of changes...
An "expensive model collector"
I'll take the "wait and see" attitude.
n012944 oltmannd Norm48327 I have this gut feeling Harrison is going to fail at CSX. Don't ask me why, it's just there in my mind. After closing a few small humps, dead silence. I'll go with "Who knew operating CSX was so complicated?" It hasn't been "dead silence". Lots of changes...
Such as???
To read posts here, Harrison is some crazed monster who has destroyed three railroads already and now will do the same at CSX.
schlimm To read posts here, Harrison is some crazed monster who has destroyed three railroads already and now will do the same at CSX.
Well all I know is my boss is getting calls from customers that CSX serves already that deal in hazmat wanting to know what it will cost them to switch to us if they decide they can not stand the service level they get from CSX anymore gets worse. These are fortune 500 companies that have dealt with EHH from his time at CN and CP and several also when he was at the IC so they know the man his goals and what happens. They are already making their contingency plans.
Freight volumes are very strong now, any shipper would be wise to have a backup or five. I've got about five thousands loads I can't move right now.. may have to rail them as trucks are booked solid until about July. I'm guessing the railroads are being swamped with freight too.
Of course he's not "some crazed montser". He's a super bright railroader who championed scheduled railroading to maximize asset utilization and got to name it "Precision Scheduled Railroading". He deserves a TON of credit.
That was then. Everyone saw him do it and and copied wide swaths of his game plan.
This is now. CSX is already operating pretty efficiently and has come a LOOOONG way in the past decade or so. There's just not that much more to get.
Wonder why we don't see major terminal closing or a big change in the operating plan? It's because there really isn't a much better one - and improvements to a network as fragile and complex as CSX are difficult and risky.
oltmannd schlimm To read posts here, Harrison is some crazed monster who has destroyed three railroads already and now will do the same at CSX. Of course he's not "some crazed montser". He's a super bright railroader who championed scheduled railroading to maximize asset utilization and got to name it "Precision Scheduled Railroading". He deserves a TON of credit. That was then. Everyone saw him do it and and copied wide swaths of his game plan. This is now. CSX is already operating pretty efficiently and has come a LOOOONG way in the past decade or so. There's just not that much more to get. Wonder why we don't see major terminal closing or a big change in the operating plan? It's because there really isn't a much better one - and improvements to a network as fragile and complex as CSX are difficult and risky.
Which all goes to prove that EHH is not worth his asking price of CSX picking up his CP forefited bonus money. He may be worth a run of the mill railroad CEO's salary - UNTIL he proves he is worth more. As a stockholder I don't want to pay for what was done and forefited elsewhere, only for what you have done for ME.
oltmannd n012944 oltmannd Norm48327 I have this gut feeling Harrison is going to fail at CSX. Don't ask me why, it's just there in my mind. After closing a few small humps, dead silence. I'll go with "Who knew operating CSX was so complicated?" It hasn't been "dead silence". Lots of changes... Such as???
Additional locals, and road trains no longer doing line of road work. Changing blocking around to be more efficient. Changing of rules to speed up operations. Getting rid of remotes. Adding U men.
These are all things that have resulted in a better railroad (IMHO). They are also items that you won't read on the railfan boards. It just isn't sexy to the heritage unit/#opendoorpolicy railpictures.net crowd. It also isn't intersting to the people who want to hate EHH, and take closing of humps and running with it. They will say that a hump closing, even though they are still flat switching at the yards, is an example of his slash and burn policy. They will ignore that the car volume doesn't require a hump, and how much a hump yard costs to run.
I agree with taking a wait and see attitude, however as someone involved with the day to day operation, I am impressed so far.
How wide spread is the removal of remotes?
Harrison "crashed the plane at CP" and left a mess as a result of unhappy customers, many of whom have left where possible. I agree with your statements. CEO's need to be visionary and look at the big picxture. Cutting out marginal business can come back and bite you when the economy turns south and you could use the business to help keep the lights on.
Shadow the Cats owner My husband remembers about 20 years ago a CEO being run out for spending to much in double track improvements. IIRC he said his name was Robert Krebs or something like that and was the head of the BNSF at the time. The BOD told him he was spending way to much money double tracking the ATSF transcon all over the system they said the traffic levels did not justify the spending. They kept telling him be more like EHH in fact cut back on capital spending. He refused and was fired. However 2 years after he was released the traffic he had been building for showed up and the BOD had egg on its face as all that so called excess capacity was gone and they needed more of it fast. I guess the Boards of these get it now companies need to realize is play the long game not what the Street wants. These days it is I want results now not in 5 years. So people that can see thru the fog and see what is needed in the future are cast aside for people that promise to get you ahead right now regardless if they crash the plane.
zugmann How wide spread is the removal of remotes?
From what I hear, most of the major terminals will be back to full crews.
It will be interesting to see if he can make this a reality.
http://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/20/csx-surge-after-new-ceo-says-profits-will-increase-by-25-percent.html
Excerpt from Wall Street Journal, Apr. 20
CSX Corp. Chief Executive Hunter Harrison promised changes big and small at the railway, from idling excess locomotives to clearing bottlenecks at major interchanges, in his first public remarks since taking the top job last month.
Mr. Harrison said during a call with analysts Thursday that the precision-railroading strategy he implemented at his previous stints running Canada's two largest railroads could help trains run faster along CSX's complicated map in the eastern U.S., which include more interconnected routes and shorter hauls.
"It's a pretty drastic change, but a pretty simple model," Mr. Harrison said in an interview. "It's like a football team going from a running attack to a passing attack. It's still football, something you're familiar with, but a different strategy."
A 50-year industry veteran known as a turnaround expert, Mr. Harrison said plans are under way to idle about 550 locomotives and 25,000 railcars, and the railroad is considering additional closures. It has already converted four hump yards -- where train cars are sorted for their next stop -- to flat-switching yards, which Mr. Harrison has called more efficient to operate…
CSX's challenges include the "spaghetti bowl" of the Eastern rails, called that for the intertwined routes that CSX, Norfolk Southern Corp. and other short-haul freight lines and passenger trains use. Mr. Harrison said that CSX is working to bypass certain terminals that require extra processing.
"The way to handle that is to eat the spaghetti and get rid of it," he said.
Mr. Harrison also plans to devote attention to Chicago, a sluggish interchange where many rail networks meet, and he hinted at the potential for a partnership with another railroad network that could divert some of its traffic.
"Chicago is busting at the seams from a capacity standpoint," he said. "There's opportunities to, maybe, take business out of Chicago that will help the situation, lower our cost and improve our service."
wanswheel Excerpt from Wall Street Journal, Apr. 20 CSX Corp. Chief Executive Hunter Harrison promised changes big and small at the railway, from idling excess locomotives to clearing bottlenecks at major interchanges, in his first public remarks since taking the top job last month. Mr. Harrison said during a call with analysts Thursday that the precision-railroading strategy he implemented at his previous stints running Canada's two largest railroads could help trains run faster along CSX's complicated map in the eastern U.S., which include more interconnected routes and shorter hauls. "It's a pretty drastic change, but a pretty simple model," Mr. Harrison said in an interview. "It's like a football team going from a running attack to a passing attack. It's still football, something you're familiar with, but a different strategy." A 50-year industry veteran known as a turnaround expert, Mr. Harrison said plans are under way to idle about 550 locomotives and 25,000 railcars, and the railroad is considering additional closures. It has already converted four hump yards -- where train cars are sorted for their next stop -- to flat-switching yards, which Mr. Harrison has called more efficient to operate… CSX's challenges include the "spaghetti bowl" of the Eastern rails, called that for the intertwined routes that CSX, Norfolk Southern Corp. and other short-haul freight lines and passenger trains use. Mr. Harrison said that CSX is working to bypass certain terminals that require extra processing. "The way to handle that is to eat the spaghetti and get rid of it," he said. Mr. Harrison also plans to devote attention to Chicago, a sluggish interchange where many rail networks meet, and he hinted at the potential for a partnership with another railroad network that could divert some of its traffic. "Chicago is busting at the seams from a capacity standpoint," he said. "There's opportunities to, maybe, take business out of Chicago that will help the situation, lower our cost and improve our service."
Harrison may think he already has the bull by the horns but he's dealing with a railroad that is far diffferent in composition than IC, CN, or CP. No straight line railroading here; no point A to point B. Gather up the loaded cars and get them to their destination. It's not the "spaghetti bowl" you described but a spider web of lines in coal country that once produced tons of revenue for CSX and it's predecesors. Given "the war against coal" the lack of revenue from those lines is going to be a factor in the bottom line unless things change drastically. No way can he shed them without sacrificing the revenue they produce. They may be incidental in his opinion but they are still valuable. It's going to be fun to watch him try to sort things out and determine which lines to keep, lease, or sell
Let's face facts. Harrison is an investor's man. He's looking out for the stockholders, not the employees or customers. That's evidenced by his track record of alienating customers at CN and CP. Many of them went to CSX after he basically told them he didn't want their business. CN is presently eating CP's lunch north of 49. Cn has grabbed a lot of business Hunter thought irrelvant and unprofitable. CN is making profit from that. GM is still not happy with CN due to Harrison's antics and are still using other options including trucking to other railroads.
The demands of the hedge fund masters who are looking for quick profits and the expectation that CSX stockholders will pay Harrison the ransom he demands for leaving CP early are simply indications of an ego gone wild and out of control. Were I a stockholder in CSX I would vote to show him the door with no "participation trophy".
The preceding is personal opinion, but I can't help but think executive salaries are beyond obscene when the leave a corporation in shambles and are handsomely rewarded for doing that. It goes against my grain.
There was a time when CEO's had ethics. That day seems to have disappeared.
Off my rant.
The only thing Hunter and his hedge fund 'stockholders' want out of CSX is every last short term nickle and dime and then they will dump the wrecked and undercapitalized company quicker than the French TGV record run.
Non railroader here, so be patient.
I understand the difference between a flat yard and hump yard and have seen both in action. What extra costs are involved with running a hump yard? It seems that once the investment has been made, it would be efficient. What variable costs are involved?At what point is it more efficient to run a hump yard vs flat yard? 1000 cars per day? 1200 per day?
Roughly how many cars can be yarded per hour (or per day) by both methods? Yes, I know...yard configurations determine exact numbers, but what can be done with both?Ed
I cannot say anything bad about HUnter, He treated us craft guys well and made us proud to be railroaders.
My limited perspective.
Randy
Randy Stahl I cannot say anything bad about HUnter, He treated us craft guys well and made us proud to be railroaders. My limited perspective. Randy
I cannot say anything bad about HUnter, He treated us craft guys well and made us proud to be railroaders. My limited perspective.
Waiting with bated breath for details. Please tell us more.
Just a few notes....
Fluid conveyor belt like shipments by customers....couple problems here....
It is pretty rare anyone is switched 7 days a week by csx or any RR, M-F switches for higher volume customers are lucky. Many only see CSX switch 1 or 2 days a week. CSX by this very policy design chops off the begining and the end of the smoothness of the flow of shipments themselves.
Many business are cyclical for countless, real world market and economic reasons and as much as HH wants smooth flow of volume he cannot dictate against real world realities.
Precision scheduled RR. Not going to work on a system like csx as he would desire it. Our shipments are all over the place, out of control in the Southeast, keystone cops like situation. One factor is that there was little to almost no planning for the closure of the Atlanta hump, which given how fast it came after his arrival seems about right. The plan was basically close the hump....not a detailed study of the whole service plan and how to accomodate such a bold change, just do it. I have cars bouncing back and forth and never making their terminal and from insiders, this is a partial result of his precision scheduling. Operating managers are and have been getting fired on the spot for delaying a train off schedule, even for valid reasons or for things totally outside their control. Terminal managers are opting to not pull blocks of cars off trains or not add blocks of cars into trains in their terminal if it could make the train late and put them at risk of getting fired. So the work isn't getting done and trains run from origin terminal A and go to destination terminal B but much of the work in between assigned to the train's service plan isn't accomplished. Seems a bit odd to celebrate timeliness but the customers who pay the freight are not being served. As raw materal piplines get more sluggish, shippers tend to increase shipments to combat the transit problem, this increasses the volume somewhat on the csx system that in many places is already overwhelmed and makes it worse.
Let's tackle the things he said one at a time.
Bypassing terminals to cut 2-3 days off Chicago to FL transit times.
Does CSX really have 2-3 handlings to cut out? On NS, the typical merchandise trip moves about 500 miles and has 1.75 intermediate handlings (block swaps count as a handling). I would suspect CSX to be very similar. The network modeling tools are used to optimize the blocking plan to yield the minimum number of handlings on the network. The train service plan is then designed to move those blocks on the network as efficiently as possible.
If you try to optimize a lane at a time, you wind up with a sub-optimized network. If you're railroad is more-or-less linear, then there really isn't much difference. If it's more web, or even a triangle with a bunch of arms, you could wind up much worse off.
Merchandise train speed between terminals. Now 18 mph, wants 27-28.
Oh, boy. Selkirk to Chicago. No sweat. It's probably in the mid 20s now. On the old L&N? I don't think so. I wonder if he's basing it on the fact that CSX's intermodal speed between terminals is in the high 20s? If so, he HAS to know that speed overweighted by the sheer volume of intermodal trains between the northeast and Chicago, doesn't he?
Faster is better, especially if you can turn crews faster or double up on crew districts, but.... most of the time wasted isn't on the line of road, where trains are really doing the best they can to get up and down the grades, in and out of sidings and through the terminals. Power them up and don't let them get too long and you might squeeze a few mph more out of them - at quite a fuel penalty.
n012944 It will be interesting to see if he can make this a reality. http://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/20/csx-surge-after-new-ceo-says-profits-will-increase-by-25-percent.html
If coal keeps up, no problem. Lets see what NS says in a couple days
Nevermind... can't change the mind of people who love this guy...
Peoples World In an ordinary year, CEOs like Kent and Broussard might be frontrunners for any CEO pay dishonors. But we do not live in ordinary times. This year, one grasping top exec has blown away the competition. Meet our Mr. Corporate Greed 2017: Hunter Harrison, the newly hired chief exec at the railroad powerhouse CSX. The 72-year-old Harrison didn’t come cheap. To take the reins at CSX, he demanded a four-year stock-and-cash pay package that his fans on the CSX board calculated would cost $230 million — and CSX officialdom initially pegged at an even grander $300 million. Some context: In Harrison’s last gig, running the Canadian Pacific railroad, he pulled down $89 million over the four-year span that ended in 2015. Harrison’s CEO predecessor at CSX made a mere $39.8 million over that same four-year stretch. Harrison still faces a possible obstacle on the way to his jaw-dropping jackpot. Shareholders will be taking an advisory vote on his pay plan at the CSX annual meeting later this spring. Harrison says he’ll quit if shareholders don’t give him a thumbs up. That thumbs up, industry observers feel, shouldn’t be much of a problem. Large investors like hedge fund mover and shaker Paul Hilal see Harrison as a railroad man with a magic touch. They credit him for “turning around” the lackluster operation at Canadian Pacific and see no reason why he won’t be able to generate an equally lucrative restart at CSX. How did Harrison achieve that “turnaround”? By mimicking the infamous “Chainsaw Al” Dunlap. At his previous CEO stop, Canadian Pacific, Harrison cut his workforce by 34 percent. Harrison, for his part, signaled he’ll take his basic Canadian Pacific game plan to CSX — and that prospect has the unions that represent 22,000 of CSX’s 27,000-employee workforce much more than slightly apprehensive. Harrison’s previous corporate “success” has come on the backs of cashiered workers. Business analysts see similarly stunning job losses in store for CSX. “We expect emphasis now to be placed on cost cutting,” notes Ben Hartford, a transportation expert at Robert W. Baird & Co. But the new CSX CEO doesn’t rate as a pure one-trick pony. Harrison does have other strategies for cutting costs besides killing jobs. He has a particular fondness for running longer trains. During Harrison’s tenure at Canadian Pacific, the number of cars in an average train bounced up by 25 percent. So the next time you find yourself twiddling your thumbs at a railroad crossing, waiting for an incredibly long CSX freight train to rumble by, keep in mind that your wait does serve a definite purpose. You’re helping to make Hunter Harrison the richest railroad executive since America’s original Robber Baron days. But also keep in mind that you’re only losing time. Thousands of other Americans are likely losing the best job they ever had.
In an ordinary year, CEOs like Kent and Broussard might be frontrunners for any CEO pay dishonors. But we do not live in ordinary times. This year, one grasping top exec has blown away the competition. Meet our Mr. Corporate Greed 2017: Hunter Harrison, the newly hired chief exec at the railroad powerhouse CSX.
The 72-year-old Harrison didn’t come cheap. To take the reins at CSX, he demanded a four-year stock-and-cash pay package that his fans on the CSX board calculated would cost $230 million — and CSX officialdom initially pegged at an even grander $300 million.
Some context: In Harrison’s last gig, running the Canadian Pacific railroad, he pulled down $89 million over the four-year span that ended in 2015. Harrison’s CEO predecessor at CSX made a mere $39.8 million over that same four-year stretch.
Harrison still faces a possible obstacle on the way to his jaw-dropping jackpot. Shareholders will be taking an advisory vote on his pay plan at the CSX annual meeting later this spring. Harrison says he’ll quit if shareholders don’t give him a thumbs up.
That thumbs up, industry observers feel, shouldn’t be much of a problem. Large investors like hedge fund mover and shaker Paul Hilal see Harrison as a railroad man with a magic touch. They credit him for “turning around” the lackluster operation at Canadian Pacific and see no reason why he won’t be able to generate an equally lucrative restart at CSX.
How did Harrison achieve that “turnaround”? By mimicking the infamous “Chainsaw Al” Dunlap. At his previous CEO stop, Canadian Pacific, Harrison cut his workforce by 34 percent.
Harrison, for his part, signaled he’ll take his basic Canadian Pacific game plan to CSX — and that prospect has the unions that represent 22,000 of CSX’s 27,000-employee workforce much more than slightly apprehensive. Harrison’s previous corporate “success” has come on the backs of cashiered workers.
Business analysts see similarly stunning job losses in store for CSX. “We expect emphasis now to be placed on cost cutting,” notes Ben Hartford, a transportation expert at Robert W. Baird & Co.
But the new CSX CEO doesn’t rate as a pure one-trick pony. Harrison does have other strategies for cutting costs besides killing jobs. He has a particular fondness for running longer trains. During Harrison’s tenure at Canadian Pacific, the number of cars in an average train bounced up by 25 percent.
So the next time you find yourself twiddling your thumbs at a railroad crossing, waiting for an incredibly long CSX freight train to rumble by, keep in mind that your wait does serve a definite purpose. You’re helping to make Hunter Harrison the richest railroad executive since America’s original Robber Baron days.
But also keep in mind that you’re only losing time. Thousands of other Americans are likely losing the best job they ever had.
Sheesh, after reading that you'd almost expect him to have horns and fangs..
Ulrich Sheesh, after reading that you'd almost expect him to have horns and fangs..
I dunno - after reading many of the accounts (many being third party, to boot), I get the feeling many of his former employees feel the same way.
I also get the feeling that those same folks would probably believe there's a mispelling in Balt's quote:
Some context: In Harrison’s last gig, ruining the Canadian Pacific railroad,...
I am patiently waiting for merger proposals. Believe that is EHH's next big play and upcoming soon. Something's coming down the pike!
I think so too, although not with CN or CP.. Discussions are probably already underway with BNSF or UP. The "announcement" will come after alot of the groundwork has already been done. They have to go fast, knowing that they have a business friendly president in the White House who is likely to be a one term wonder. EHH knows he's got a small window of opportunity in which to make it happen.
Shippers and STB will never let it happen unless a credible operating and business plan can be submitted which shows good benefits that can't be achieved any other way - i.e., such as by interline agreements. That's per the STB rules resulting from the similar previous proposed end-to-end merger of BNSF with CN circa 2000. CSX achieving a low OR isn't in the shippers' interest or of no concern to the STB, respectively.
- PDN. .
Ulrich I think so too, although not with CN or CP.. Discussions are probably already underway with BNSF or UP. The "announcement" will come after alot of the groundwork has already been done. They have to go fast, knowing that they have a business friendly president in the White House who is likely to be a one term wonder. EHH knows he's got a small window of opportunity in which to make it happen.
Somewhere else, I don't remember if on here or another site, there was talk that BNSF or UP might be a target in a few years. His release from the CP has a time limit (4 years I think) stipulation that keeps him from the two western carriers. After that, he can (try) gobble up any one.
I've heard the sandhouse rumors that UP is worried about EHH at CSX. I'm not sure why, unless it's that CSX was always thought to be the one UP would marry up with in the final round of mergers. EHH may not be a friend to the agreement people, but he is definitely no friend of the non-agreement (managers) people. They are the easiest to get rid of.
jeffhergertEHH may not be a friend to the agreement people, but he is definitely no friend of the non-agreement (managers) people. They are the easiest to get rid of. Jeff
Especially since CSX over the past decade or more has done about everything possible to discourage 'contract' people from accepting 'promotion' into non-contract positions. They didn't want 'managers' to have any seniority to fall back on when it came time to be fired. At the 'entry level' non-contract positions most employees took a pay decrease for their chance to 'grab the brass ring' in stepping from contract to non-contract. Some fools still went for the empty promises of non-contract positions.
BaltACD jeffhergert EHH may not be a friend to the agreement people, but he is definitely no friend of the non-agreement (managers) people. They are the easiest to get rid of. Jeff Especially since CSX over the past decade or more has done about everything possible to discourage 'contract' people from accepting 'promotion' into non-contract positions. They didn't want 'managers' to have any seniority to fall back on when it came time to be fired. At the 'entry level' non-contract positions most employees took a pay decrease for their chance to 'grab the brass ring' in stepping from contract to non-contract. Some fools still went for the empty promises of non-contract positions.
jeffhergert EHH may not be a friend to the agreement people, but he is definitely no friend of the non-agreement (managers) people. They are the easiest to get rid of. Jeff
A year or two back, some who were looking to go into managment in my corner of the world, were being told that to be considered they had to give up their craft seniority. One guy who had accepted a management position shortly before this policy started was asked if he would still give up his seniority. (He didn't.) I don't know if this policy is still in effect, but I don't hear of as many people looking at going into supervisory positions as I used to.
Paul_D_North_JrShippers and STB will never let it happen unless a credible operating and business plan can be submitted which shows good benefits that can't be achieved any other way - i.e., such as by interline agreements. That's per the STB rules resulting from the similar previous proposed end-to-end merger of BNSF with CN circa 2000.
But, but, EHH has magic beans! ...or was it pixie dust?
LOL Or the Emperor's new clothes ?
Perhaps we'll again see a beautiful scheme (theory) murdered by a gang of brutal facts (and laws/ policies).
Don and Paul,
I'm taking my usual "wait-and-see" attitude here. It's going to be difficult for Harrison to work his magic given that CSX is not a "point A to point B railroad" like the previous three he headed up. Too many spiders spinning the CSX web for it to be that, and the income from the coal lines would be lost should he try to make the triangle the sole source of revenue while selling off the lines that have traditionally provided substantial income for CSX. Today's politics are, or should be, a huge factor in his decisions. Under Obama's "war on coal" shedding thos lines may have been appropriate; not so much now that there is a new sheriff in town.
Given the changes in government coal is not dead and Harrison would be a fool to ignore that and sell those lines to short lines simply to seek short term profit. Sure, the bottom line can temporarilly be made to look better by selling off assets. Whether that leads to long term results remains to be seen. I will give him the benefit of the doubt as there are inefficencies in every system and if he can ferrett those inefficiencies out and eliminate them without creating havoc and destroying employee's lives more power to him.
Perhaps his ultimate goal is a true "transcontinental" railroad. No one knows that at this point and we can't read his mind.
Harrison's track record clearly shows he is "an investor's man" and is not concerned in the least about those who make profits possible through the sweat of their brow.
Far too many time in my lifetime have I seen CEO's get multi-millions in rewards while destroying a corporation. Think Sears, Montgomery Ward, and many other companies.
I have no dog in this fight. The above is simply my observation.
Understand a non-contract 'blood bath' is taking place in Jacksonville today. No idea of the numbers being terminated. Nothing is safe!
LOL - Someone is pretty creative (and has too much time on their hands . . . ). And C. Keurig the coffeemaker is more critical to operations and is probably the one actually responsible for the failures . . .
I'm very curious why 2816 is sitting dormant in a Shop in Calgary and what affiliation Harrison Hunter has with it.
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