CSX: Damaged Rail in use

[AntonioFP45]

Recently I saw a sight that shocked and saddened me.

In Tampa, I went to a business called "Tom the Hubcap man", located on Busch Blvd.

25 feet behind this small business is the CSX rail line that connects Tampa to Clearwater. CSX's long auto carrier (Trailer Train) train travels through regularly.

As I looked at the track, I noticed that on the very top-outside portion of the rail, long pieces of the shiny rail about 1/4" to 1/2" wider were splintering off! I actually reached down and noticed I could easily break them off. Looking down the track I could see about 3 to 4 foot long stretches of this. I'm 41 years old, have been railfanning since the mid 1970s and have never seen this on a regularly used "Main Line!" Is this a safety issue?! [:0]

Good Goobly! Is CSX going to allow their track to resemble Penn Central's?[V] As I've stated before, back in the 70s it seemed like SCL was much better at track maintenance. I've considered calling the railroad on this, but based on some threads I've already read, I wonder if CSX would actually come out and inspect the rail.

Anyone know what's going on? Has CSX fallen that far behind in track maintenance? Bigger isn't better, and IMHO, CSX's purchase of Conrail was too high a price if there's little money left for the most basic maintenance functions.

It's sad, but stuff like this does give credence to the CSX sucks website. I hope this company gets its act together. I know it would never happen, but splitting itself back into smaller Class 1s might not be a bad option. Transportation companies this large tend to get "out of touch and less personable" quickly where it's needed the most.

[Junctionfan]

Personally, I think the board of directors and Micheal Ward have got to be dumped. They aren't doing their jobs and making sure everybody else does theirs (management). There is nothing worse than a bunch of misfit executives fiddling while the company burns.

[gabe]

Where CSX's Decatur, Illinois line merges into its old CE&I line, the same thing can be observed (very badly). I think it has something to do with the radius of the curve connecting it to the main line.

Gabe

[AntonioFP45]

Juntionfan,

I agree with you. I remember still when CSX first came into existence in 1986. Prime Osborn and Hays Watkins were running the show back then.

They were "Old School" railroaders and wanted CSX to have a stoic but polished image. Now they're just part of the company's archives.

[Anonymous]

Antonio-

First, I must tell you that trespassing and touching damaged rail is a VERY dangerous thing to do. I have seen people touch rail splinters and discover the hard way just how sharp and brittle they are. I even had to take one conductor to the hospital for it once. Having a doctor pull those things out of your hands (it went right through his glove) and the tetanus shot and the other issues that go along with it are not fun. For some reason everyone seems drawn to such splinters. I'm not sure if it is the shiny look or just the desire to see what they feel like, but resist the temptation.

Second, such splinters are not a major track defect. It is likely a rail surface problem. As long as the head of the rail is intact I wouldn't consider it that big of a problem. If you think it makes a derailment an issue, call CSX and report it.

LC

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear

Antonio-

First, I must tell you that trespassing and touching damaged rail is a VERY dangerous thing to do. I have seen people touch rail splinters and discover the hard way just how sharp and brittle they are. I even had to take one conductor to the hospital for it once. Having a doctor pull those things out of your hands (it went right through his glove) and the tetanus shot and the other issues that go along with it are not fun. For some reason everyone seems drawn to such splinters. I'm not sure if it is the shiny look or just the desire to see what they feel like, but resist the temptation.

Second, such splinters are not a major track defect. It is likely a rail surface problem. As long as the head of the rail is intact I wouldn't consider it that big of a problem. If you think it makes a derailment an issue, call CSX and report it.

LC

Legal disclaimer: I will neither confirm nor deny trespassing while making this observation (although I am 73% certain I was not trespassing).

Where CSX's old B&O Decatur – Indianapolis line (which now stops just inside the Indiana State line) meets and merges with CSX’s CE&I Chicago – Evansville line, I observed the phenomenon that Ed describes.

I don't know if it is a problem or not (seems like one to me), but the head of the rail was so worn, that it looked like a "1" rather than a "T." The curve where this problem is, has a very sharp radius--I only see 4-axle units on the line despite the fact that they are pulling some very long trains--and I think the sharp radius is the reason the head of the rail is being degraded so severely. But I am not really even an amateur when compared to some of the other members of the forum, so what do I know?

Gabe

[mloik]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe
(although I am 73% certain I was not trespassing).

Gabe,

Your quantification of the degree of certainty certainly made me chuckle. Thanks.

Michael

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mloik

QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe
(although I am 73% certain I was not trespassing).

Gabe,

Your quantification of the degree of certainty certainly made me chuckle. Thanks.

Michael

Always glad I can make someone chuckle; and my post was intended as such. However, there is some science to my calculation (73% rather than 75% because there is a 2% margin for error; I believe in Murphy's law, so the margin will always go against me).

Gabe

[Anonymous]

Gabe,

Are you talking about Hillsdale?? Right by the Wabash river and where US 36 and Indiana 63 meet??? We run a coal drag down that about five times a week with a pair of six axles. We have to crawl around that stretch of track very slowly (10mph).

[Anonymous]

Gabe-

Sounds like you are talking about curve worn rail that should be replaced if it is that badly worn.

I was more concerned about Antonio trespassing as he said he had actually touched the rail and broken off parts of it.

LC

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear

Gabe-

Sounds like you are talking about curve worn rail that should be replaced if it is that badly worn.

I was more concerned about Antonio trespassing as he said he had actually touched the rail and broken off parts of it.

LC

LC, no worries, I knew what you were referring to. I just wanted to make sure that I didn't suggest I was breaking the law.

If that rail doesn't need replacement, few do.

Gabe

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by n_stephenson

Gabe,

Are you talking about Hillsdale?? Right by the Wabash river and where US 36 and Indiana 63 meet??? We run a coal drag down that about five times a week with a pair of six axles. We have to crawl around that stretch of track very slowly (10mph).

Yes, I am talking about Hillsdale. Thank you, the name was escaping me at the moment. Also, thanks for telling me about the coal drag; I had no idea. Every train I saw was four-axle driven. So, how many trains a day are on this line? Do you know?

Thanks
Gabe

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear

Antonio-

First, I must tell you that trespassing and touching damaged rail is a VERY dangerous thing to do. I have seen people touch rail splinters and discover the hard way just how sharp and brittle they are. Second, such splinters are not a major track defect. It is likely a rail surface problem. As long as the head of the rail is intact I wouldn't consider it that big of a problem. If you think it makes a derailment an issue, call CSX and report it.
LC

Thanks Limited Clear. [8D]

I'm very aware about trespassing. The business that I was at was virtually "right next" to the rails. I noticed the splinters from the business. I walked up to the track only to look at the damage and determine if it's something that I should call CSX on. So I was doing this to be a good citizen, not deliberately trespass. I would have gladly pointed this out if there were any security officials coming to check on me.

You're correct in that the splinters are sharp. [B)] I know how to handle metal as I used to fabricate and weld steel in a transit bus body shop and am always extra careful.[;)] I didn't say I broke the splinter off, I said I could have broken it off.

I appreciate the info that the splinters are not a major track defect, however, as I pointed out I've railfanned along mainlines for years and, other than in yards or sidings, this is the first time I've seen splinters on a mainline...........and on top of that so many on a stretch.

Thanks again, LimitedClear. I do hope that CSX steps up and does the overall better job that SCL used to do.

10-4![;)]

[Anonymous]

Gabe,

I really don't think many trains are run on the Decatur Sub (east to west track) and the Danville Secondary (north to south), which is further west and meet at the Diamond at Chrisman, IL. I think there are a few grain trains that run out of Decatur and one regular freight that runs from Terre Haute to Decatur, but that's about it. Now, on the CE&D there are many trains of course running both ways. V500 is the coal drag that runs fairly regularly. It is usually called in the early afternoon and departs out of the Cinergy coal plant at Cayuga and heads south to Hillsdale on the CE&D, where it then runs west on the Decatur Sub to Chrisman. At Chrisman we pull through the interlocking and pull the train past the wye and then back it south towards Paris, IL on the Danville Secondary. The SB dispatcher in Jacksonville controls the Decatur Sub via DTC blocks. And the Indianapolis IB dispatcher controlls the Danville Secondary via FORM D's, which have just been recently replaced by the system wide EC-1 form. After we pull southward through the wye we then head north about 10 miles to Vermillion Grove where the Black Beauty coal mine is. The mainline ends there, but continues again in Westville where one of our CSX yard jobs services some industries there. The section of track that the yard job operates on is considered an industrial lead now.
Right now the V500 has 76 coal hoppers on it, but the mine only loads about 50 cars as the coal mined in this area is "younger" and burns quite dirty. Currently the Cinergy plant in Cauyga is builing some new srubbers to combat this problem and then the V500 will probably be fully loaded and run daily. That would be more prized than working one of the locals if V500 became regular; right now the job is called off the extraboard.

[MP173]

Nate:

That is a lot of running for coal that is consumed, perhaps 10 miles away as the crow flies!

Is there other coal moves down in that area?

Could you explain the difference between regular vs. extraboard?

How is a job considered to be regular? Would it be a train that operates (or is called) at a specific time daily? Over here in NW Indiana, there is a regular NS 323 which runs daily from Ft. Wayne to Van Loon to pickup loads of steel. I would imagine that is a regular run and is bid out accordingly. Since it seems to operate on a regular basis of 8am ... I would imagine it would be highly desired.

So, does a person then bid for that job based on their seniority and then hold it until bumped or they give it up? How often are regular jobs bid?

You had mentioned in an earlier post that most of the regular jobs are held out of Evansville, but Danville does have a few (going south). How many of these are scheduled (with specific called times) vs being on the board?

ed

[Anonymous]

Ed,

Coal is supplied to this plant from other mines as well; the V502 runs south of Terre Haute and brings coal. Also, some Chicago bound coal is loaded at Vermillion Grove on a T936 or T938.
A regular job would be one that runs on a schedule such as a local that starts 8am every Mon-Fri, etc. And you have the right idea on the jobs are divied. Since the locals are so attractive since they usually work during the day, the oldest of the old heads are on those jobs. Just remember, everything on the railroad is based on seniority. The more attractive the job, the more likely the one holding it has a lot of years on the RR.
You are confused on that last question; I must have phrased it wrong. Most of the trains that run out of Evansville are off the Freight Pool. There are a certain number of spots on a freight pool with an assigned off day, but not always. If your seniority allows you to hold a spot on the freight pool then you work it. Freight pool jobs are not scheduled. It's much like an extraboard in that first in first out. Vacancies and openings are covered by the extraboard. Really, the only jobs that are on a true schedule with the same start times are yard jobs and locals. Intermodals have a fairly dependable time frame for which they are called. For instance we have a few old heads that have a pool that runs to Evansville. Q127, an intermodal is one of the trains they cover. It is called out of Bedford Park ramp in Chciago at 1545 and usually arrives in Danville by 2100, so those guys have a better idea of when they are called. They also only run two trains south and two trains north daily, so it is much easier to keep track of things. If you are on a freight pool, you only have to cover trains assigned to that pool; whereas the extraboard must cover everything under the sun. Being on the extraboard is no way to live a regular life because you never know when you get called. Hope that answers your questions, but feel free to ask more if you have them.

[edblysard]

The splinter is normal for heavy wear on the rail,,,be careful, I have cut all the way through the ankle of my boots just brushing against it, sharp as a razor.
It will go away next time they grind the rail there.
We have this in the curve where my switching lead is, results from the force of the wheels "pushing" the steel to one side...bet you get a lot of heavy traffic there.

Dont worry too much, as long as the inside of the rail head isnt grooved to badly.

Ed

[Junctionfan]

What was the weight of the rail rated for?

[espeefoamer]

But my cousin told me he knew a guy who could get me a good deal on some slightly used rail[B)].

[Anonymous]

Speno will fix the problem:
http://www.rtands.com/jun01/grinding.html

[mudchicken]

I concur with Ed & LC...CSX (& others) are pushing the limit before replacing. It is not as much maintenance as it is increased tonnage and a poor grinding program.

NStepenson & gabe, I have seen your neighborhood and the line in the vicinity of the Wabash River. The ex-Monon line has seen a big swing in tonnage & direction on old 132-136# rail with little grinding or transposition. (I was more interested in a water line at Cayuga (north of NKP/LE&W x-ing) and the former C&IW line between Hillsdale and Montezuma/Parke County and that series of sad stories)...UP is busting tail relaying rail on the former SP that would curl your toes if you saw it. The rail will live some more, until CSX slows down its purchases of EMD & GE 's shiny toys. (the spreadsheet "game" and ROI)

You are looking at a phenomena of the fluidity of supposebly "hard" rail. The terms are shelling, spalling, headcheck & rolling. The "1" shape is condemnable when you lose nearly 40% of the head and it sounds like somebody was unable to grind or transpose the rail when he wanted to. (I know the feeling). That rail is going to the scrapper and won't be cascaded into yard use.

[csxengineer98]

i personly want to know what makes you a MOW road master...... the condition you said above is not uncommon on any railroad...anywhere in the USA.... you will find the same thing on evey major road and shortline in the country... it is a normal condition... not a safty issue as you so pointed out... i may sound like a company tool but im sick of people that dont have a real clue about track and MOW issues raising red flags and pulling the emergancy alarm for a non existant danger....and by the way you posted your thread..you did just that.........
csx engineer

[mvlandsw]

I remember reading in a book written by an SP signal maintainer that these splinters caused him trouble when they bridged the rails and shorted out the track circuits.

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by csxengineer98

i personly want to know what makes you a MOW road master...... the condition you said above is not uncommon on any railroad...anywhere in the USA.... you will find the same thing on evey major road and shortline in the country... it is a normal condition... not a safty issue as you so pointed out... i may sound like a company tool but im sick of people that dont have a real clue about track and MOW issues raising red flags and pulling the emergancy alarm for a non existant danger....and by the way you posted your thread..you did just that.........csx engineer

Hello CSXengineer.

You bring up a good point. I'll be a lot more careful next time in posting a thread like this.

But please consider that I was concerned about rail safety, and it "seemed" that a regularly used track was being neglected. Nothing more. I based my concern on the facts that I've read in past issues of TRAINS and PTJ that many of the minor derailments that have occured on Class 1s were due to poor track maintenance.

I did call CSX on an 800 number. The gentleman was very patient as I described the details and told him that it did not look life threatening. He said he would have it checked out anyway and thanked me.

Additionally, CSXengineer I used to be an ATU Union Steward at a transit authority and I remember how over and over management would neglect safety issues....regardless how much the union raised concerns! Only when something happened to one of our workers would management jump on the bandwagon; especially when the worker filed a lawsuit. Management finally hired a "Trained Safety Officer" after one of our mechanics had his arm crushed by a wheelchair lift! Thankfully he recovered. From what I've read on the CSX sucks website, it so much reminded me of my past career in the bus transit company. Union workers being threatened, intimidated, and ignored was the norm for years.

CSXengineer, I'm not making any excuses and I appreciate you pointing my error out, but as I was looking at that long stretch of splintered rails and shook my head in disgust I honestly was thinking of the train crews, not raising hysteria.

I'm sure you guys have read my posts that as a teen and a young adult, train crews were very friendly towards me and allowed me to take dozens of photos. I even got cab rides in GP7s, U18Bs, GP38-2, GP40, and an even an Amtrak SDP40f. It sure was a different era!

I've never forgotten those good, down to earth railroaders so today in return as a railfan I do my part to look out for train crews.

Peace, Safety and High Greens to you CSXEngineer.

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by csxengineer98

i personly want to know what makes you a MOW road master...... the condition you said above is not uncommon on any railroad...anywhere in the USA.... you will find the same thing on evey major road and shortline in the country... it is a normal condition... not a safty issue as you so pointed out... i may sound like a company tool but im sick of people that dont have a real clue about track and MOW issues raising red flags and pulling the emergancy alarm for a non existant danger....and by the way you posted your thread..you did just that.........
csx engineer

As a non MOW road master, I found the topic very interesting. I certainly am not asserting the rail I saw was unsafe. But, if the head of a rail can support a coal drag looking like a "1" with 75% of the head wore off, I want to know why rails aren't shapped like "1" to save weight.

Gabe

[CSXrules4eva]

QUOTE: Originally posted by csxengineer98

i personly want to know what makes you a MOW road master...... the condition you said above is not uncommon on any railroad...anywhere in the USA.... you will find the same thing on evey major road and shortline in the country... it is a normal condition... not a safty issue as you so pointed out... i may sound like a company tool but im sick of people that dont have a real clue about track and MOW issues raising red flags and pulling the emergancy alarm for a non existant danger....and by the way you posted your thread..you did just that.........
csx engineer

Yes I happen to agree with ya 100% This isn't a problem that only CSX has, I've seen this on NS mailine track, Conrail track, ex Milwaukee Road, and shortline traffic tracks. I don't think it poses a real safety issue like rail cracking or fatiuge. If a person physically touches this then it is a safety issue.

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CSXrules4eva

QUOTE: Originally posted by csxengineer98

i personly want to know what makes you a MOW road master...... the condition you said above is not uncommon on any railroad...anywhere in the USA.... you will find the same thing on evey major road and shortline in the country... it is a normal condition... not a safty issue as you so pointed out... i may sound like a company tool but im sick of people that dont have a real clue about track and MOW issues raising red flags and pulling the emergancy alarm for a non existant danger....and by the way you posted your thread..you did just that.........
csx engineer

Yes I happen to agree with ya 100% This isn't a problem that only CSX has, I've seen this on NS mailine track, Conrail track, ex Milwaukee Road, and shortline traffic tracks. I don't think it poses a real safety issue like rail cracking or fatiuge. If a person physically touches this then it is a safety issue.

the thing here is csxrules is that this is NOT a safty issue...it is called rail fileing..it is part of the normal ware and tear on the rail by use... you have steel on steel..your going to get some rail ware..and that is the way it dose it... by small long thin strips that look like the head is comeing off..but insted its a perficly normal ..and safe to run trains accross it.... now if the cap was missing and it trains where running on the web..now you have a safty issue...or if thier was a crack or brake that ran down from the head to the bace..then you have a safty issue... the only way the rail can be defective is someone untrasounds or xrays it for internal damge..or like i said befor...thier is already a break in it...... most of the issuse that go into a rail structor are things that unless your a MOW road master..or someone that is in MOW can see.. and know what to look for... the point that im making here is that what someone that is on the outside of the industry might think is a major issue..is infact nothing at all...
csx engineer

[rich747us]

In the defense of CSX, I watched a track geometry train go east down the ex Conrail Chicago line at Batavia NY on November 3rd. This tells me that they're obviously doing soemthing to improve track saftey (and along a line that saw 2 derailments in the last few months). True, it would have been nice if the problems were caught before the Chicago line derailments, but at least they're not neglecting it anymore.

[csxengineer98]

it is well known that csx is on the FRAs watch list as far as thier tracks go... but when you pay out 43 million to Mr snow... the money has to come from someones budget
csx engineer

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by csxengineer98

it is well known that csx is on the FRAs watch list as far as thier tracks go... but when you pay out 43 million to Mr snow... the money has to come from someones budget
csx engineer

That is so aggravating. Yes, it was perfectly legal the way corporations work pay package contracts out for executives, but, IMHO, that is absolutely ridiculous. Makes me wonder how many safety related repairs could have been done with even half that money! Or providing the service employees needed at strategic locations to make sure that toilets in locomotives are properly sanitized!

And the CSX brass today still keeps crying that it doesn't even have money to paint that bridge in Kentucky that the residents have been complaining about.