Trains.com

Wind and Coal

6574 views
36 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Northern New York
  • 25,021 posts
Posted by tree68 on Saturday, March 4, 2017 12:10 PM

BaltACD
...however, the one on the right appears awfully yellow to be red.

Could be the difference between LED and incandescent, together with a faded lens.

LarryWhistling
Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) 
Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you
My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date
Come ride the rails with me!
There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: US
  • 25,292 posts
Posted by BaltACD on Saturday, March 4, 2017 11:33 AM

kgbw49

Here are a couple more control point shots from Down Under:

First two are same location, different angle, different traffic:

 

Related image

 

In this one I presume that both signals are displaying red from the location of the engines, however, the one on the right appears awfully yellow to be red.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

  • Member since
    January 2015
  • 2,678 posts
Posted by kgbw49 on Saturday, March 4, 2017 10:52 AM

Here are a couple more control point shots from Down Under:

First two are same location, different angle, different traffic:

Image result for australian coal trains

Image result for australian coal trains

Image result for australian coal trains

Next two look to be the same location but different angle - one scales up to fuzzy:

Related image

Image result for australian coal trains

Image result for australian coal trains

 

Related image

 

  • Member since
    January 2015
  • 2,678 posts
Posted by kgbw49 on Saturday, March 4, 2017 10:30 AM

Here is a different location but with a similar track set up - the supposition that the diverging track is the "back side" of a station appears to be correct based on this picture. The platform lights look to be of a similar configuration.

Image result for australian coal trains

Image result for australian coal trains

 

  • Member since
    March 2002
  • 9,265 posts
Posted by edblysard on Saturday, March 4, 2017 10:18 AM

BaltACD

 

 
edblysard
BaltACD
kgbw49

Image result for australian coal trains

I certainly hope the signal closest to the lights is for the track that is closest to the lights - otherwise we have a big problem with the train that is right next to the signal - unless Green means Stop.

Aussie engineers, (drivers) ride on the left hand side of the cab…all the locomotive we have run through the PTRA that are headed out to OZ are set up that way, and the signals are set the same as we do, on the engineers (driver’s) side, which in Oz puts them to the left of the track they govern.

 

Which in this picture begs the question, why isn't there a signal at this location for the track the train is operating on.  Normally, at a point where any track has a signal ALL tracks have a signal (I know there are numerous exceptions).  Just wondering what the logic would be for not having a signal for the track the train is on.

 

It looks like there is one, about 20 cars back, just this side of the small crossing.

 
My guess is this is a control point junction of sorts, we need to get a Aussie driver involved here…..

23 17 46 11

  • Member since
    June 2003
  • From: South Central,Ks
  • 7,170 posts
Posted by samfp1943 on Saturday, March 4, 2017 9:54 AM

JPS1
 
BaltACD
 
JPS1
Here is an interesting perspective on this discussion:

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/BNSF-watchdogs-settle-coal-dust-lawsuit-10975970.php

Trucks hauling sand, gravel, etc. in Texas must have a cover over their loads to help prevent damage to other vehicles.  Unfortunately, enforcement of the law is not as robust as it should be.  Frequently, the covers are not maintained properly, which results in many motorists having a windshield cracked by a passing grave, sand, etc. truck.

 

 

Similar laws appear in many jurisdictions around the country (Re: Protecting traffic from 'matter') [ falling out of, or off of  trucks- trucks in motion.] debris becoming air- born.       Open dump loads, dumpsters, or even loads on flat bed trucks, trailers, are covered; to protect other traffic moving around those vehicles.    'Mud Flaps'(definition?) are another source of flying debris that might harm other vehicles. 

Just because there are "laws on the Books" does not necessarily, mean that there is 'active' enforcement by local 'enforcement officers'. Sometimes, that premis is based on the " whose ox is being gored" (?) method of operation.

( an example of that is "Seat Belt Enforcement", for a long time, Law enforcement in some jurisdictions, would not stop a motorist just for a seat belt violation, but for something else ( Tail Light out(?), then the 'officer' would mention that a seat belt was not being used, and add that to the written violation.)Sigh 

 

 


 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: US
  • 25,292 posts
Posted by BaltACD on Saturday, March 4, 2017 9:34 AM

Semper Vaporo
Look in the distance (just left of center, 1/4 from the top) and there is a signal mast sort of lost in the dust around the train.

That signal would appear to (under Aussie rules) to be for the direction the train is traveling - and the relative location of all visible signals would tend to indicate that this is a Control Point.  At a Control Point one would expect ALL tracks to have signals covering movements on each track in both directions.  Thus the questions.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

  • Member since
    February 2016
  • From: Texas
  • 1,552 posts
Posted by PJS1 on Saturday, March 4, 2017 9:31 AM

BaltACD
 
JPS1
Here is an interesting perspective on this discussion:

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/BNSF-watchdogs-settle-coal-dust-lawsuit-10975970.php

Trucks hauling sand, gravel, etc. in Texas must have a cover over their loads to help prevent damage to other vehicles.  Unfortunately, enforcement of the law is not as robust as it should be.  Frequently, the covers are not maintained properly, which results in many motorists having a windshield cracked by a passing grave, sand, etc. truck.

Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII

  • Member since
    April 2007
  • From: Iowa
  • 3,293 posts
Posted by Semper Vaporo on Saturday, March 4, 2017 9:28 AM

BaltACD
 
edblysard
BaltACD
kgbw49

Image result for australian coal trains

I certainly hope the signal closest to the lights is for the track that is closest to the lights - otherwise we have a big problem with the train that is right next to the signal - unless Green means Stop.

Aussie engineers, (drivers) ride on the left hand side of the cab…all the locomotive we have run through the PTRA that are headed out to OZ are set up that way, and the signals are set the same as we do, on the engineers (driver’s) side, which in Oz puts them to the left of the track they govern.

 

Which in this picture begs the question, why isn't there a signal at this location for the track the train is operating on.  Normally, at a point where any track has a signal ALL tracks have a signal (I know there are numerous exceptions).  Just wondering what the logic would be for not having a signal for the track the train is on.

 

 

Look in the distance (just left of center, 1/4 from the top) and there is a signal mast sort of lost in the dust around the train.

Semper Vaporo

Pkgs.

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: US
  • 25,292 posts
Posted by BaltACD on Saturday, March 4, 2017 9:28 AM

JPS1
Here is an interesting perspective on this discussion:

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/BNSF-watchdogs-settle-coal-dust-lawsuit-10975970.php

Trucks hauling sand, gravel, etc. in Texas must have a cover over their loads to help prevent damage to other vehicles.  Unfortunately, enforcement of the law is not as robust as it should be.  Frequently, the covers are not maintained properly, which results in many motorists having a windshield cracked by a passing grave, sand, etc. truck.

I recall it took 20 to 25 years of yearly efforts for Maryland to finally enact a load cover regulation for dump trucks and other open top aggrate trucks.  It was always a contentious yearly political fight.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

  • Member since
    February 2016
  • From: Texas
  • 1,552 posts
Posted by PJS1 on Saturday, March 4, 2017 9:23 AM

Here is an interesting perspective on this discussion:

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/BNSF-watchdogs-settle-coal-dust-lawsuit-10975970.php

The picture shows a car off the track, but the article speaks to the broader issue of coal dust blowing off moving trains.  Presumably BNSF did not agree to a $1 million settlement because of one derailed car. 

Trucks hauling sand, gravel, etc. in Texas must have a cover over their loads to help prevent damage to other vehicles.  Unfortunately, enforcement of the law is not as robust as it should be.  Frequently, the covers are not maintained properly, which results in many motorists having a windshield cracked by a passing grave, sand, etc. truck.

Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: US
  • 25,292 posts
Posted by BaltACD on Saturday, March 4, 2017 9:23 AM

edblysard
BaltACD
kgbw49

Image result for australian coal trains

I certainly hope the signal closest to the lights is for the track that is closest to the lights - otherwise we have a big problem with the train that is right next to the signal - unless Green means Stop.

Aussie engineers, (drivers) ride on the left hand side of the cab…all the locomotive we have run through the PTRA that are headed out to OZ are set up that way, and the signals are set the same as we do, on the engineers (driver’s) side, which in Oz puts them to the left of the track they govern.

Which in this picture begs the question, why isn't there a signal at this location for the track the train is operating on.  Normally, at a point where any track has a signal ALL tracks have a signal (I know there are numerous exceptions).  Just wondering what the logic would be for not having a signal for the track the train is on.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

  • Member since
    March 2002
  • 9,265 posts
Posted by edblysard on Saturday, March 4, 2017 1:18 AM

BaltACD

 

 
kgbw49

Image result for australian coal trains

 

 

I certainly hope the signal closest to the lights is for the track that is closest to the lights - otherwise we have a big problem with the train that is right next to the signal - unless Green means Stop.

 

Aussie engineers, (drivers) ride on the left hand side of the cab…all the locomotive we have run through the PTRA that are headed out to OZ are set up that way, and the signals are set the same as we do, on the engineers (driver’s) side, which in Oz puts them to the left of the track they govern. 

 

23 17 46 11

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: NW Wisconsin
  • 3,857 posts
Posted by beaulieu on Friday, March 3, 2017 11:23 PM

To me it looks like the 4 tracks are paired by use, like British practice. Two tracks on the left for through trains with left-handed directional running. On the bottom right there appears to be an island platform for passengers, with a pair of tracks also set up for directional left-handed operation. There appears to be a signal mast about halfway along the length of the freight train. If indeed this is left-handed running then you would expect the signals to be on the left of the track they govern.

  • Member since
    January 2015
  • 2,678 posts
Posted by kgbw49 on Friday, March 3, 2017 10:35 PM

Do they use DPUs in Australia? The ditchlights are on but the headlight at the top of the cab is off. Perhaps the train may be moving away from the camera.

  • Member since
    June 2001
  • From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois
  • 13,681 posts
Posted by CShaveRR on Friday, March 3, 2017 10:21 PM

We used to have an Aussie or two who would respond to threads occasionally...it would be helpful in this case.

But I suspect that in that country, the signals are to the left of the track they govern.  Hence the green signal is for the clear track to the right of the train in the picture, and the signal for the train is back a few car-lengths.  Keep in mind that in much of the U.S., the rules permitting the governing signal to be on either side of the track are a relatively new thing.

In my experience, Powder River coal looks a lot more like powder than the various sizes of lumps I remember from the local coal yards as I was growing up, or the anthracite I see around here from time to time.  The stuff fits fairly low into the typical aluminum gon, though the peak may be higher than the top chord.  Historically, cars for western coal have been larger in volume than those for eastern coal; I'm not sure whether this still holds true.


Carl

Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)

CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Northern New York
  • 25,021 posts
Posted by tree68 on Friday, March 3, 2017 9:12 PM

Deggesty

Could it mean "stop" to an Orangeman? Smile 

Nah - the one on Tipperary Hill in Syracuse has the green on top, and it still means go...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipperary_Hill#Green_over_red

LarryWhistling
Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) 
Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you
My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date
Come ride the rails with me!
There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...

  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: S.E. South Dakota
  • 13,569 posts
Posted by Murphy Siding on Friday, March 3, 2017 9:06 PM

Mookie

 

 
Murphy Siding
a gondola full of powdered sugar doughnut balls

 

Send one of those down here, eh?  

 

 

And risk losing you in a powdered sugar haze? Oh the humanities! Surprise

Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.

  • Member since
    August 2002
  • 259 posts
Posted by Jackflash on Friday, March 3, 2017 7:49 PM

Balt,  I saw that too

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: At the Crossroads of the West
  • 11,013 posts
Posted by Deggesty on Friday, March 3, 2017 6:28 PM

Could it mean "stop" to an Orangeman? Smile

Johnny

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: US
  • 25,292 posts
Posted by BaltACD on Friday, March 3, 2017 6:07 PM

kgbw49

Image result for australian coal trains

I certainly hope the signal closest to the lights is for the track that is closest to the lights - otherwise we have a big problem with the train that is right next to the signal - unless Green means Stop.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

  • Member since
    June 2001
  • From: US
  • 13,488 posts
Posted by Mookie on Friday, March 3, 2017 5:44 PM

Murphy Siding
a gondola full of powdered sugar doughnut balls

Send one of those down here, eh?  

She who has no signature! cinscocom-tmw

  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: S.E. South Dakota
  • 13,569 posts
Posted by Murphy Siding on Friday, March 3, 2017 5:38 PM

JPS1

 

 
Mookie

Someone else will go into this in depth - but short answer - they spray the coal (think hair and hairspray) for the trip from the mine to the destination. 

 

In addition to heaps of coal trains, there are also a lot of gravel and sand trains running running through Texas.  The gravel at least is in open hopper cars.  Would it too be sprayed?

 

I'd think that most gravel is pretty hard and not prone to fragmenting under constant jostling like coal would. To me, coal would be similar to a gondola full of powdered sugar doughnut balls. I think that would be pretty dusty, in a sense.

Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.

  • Member since
    January 2015
  • 2,678 posts
Posted by kgbw49 on Friday, March 3, 2017 5:25 PM

In Australia the coal hoppers seem to have higher sides and they load them to a point with little or no amount above the sides...

Image result for australian coal trains

Image result for australian coal trains

Image result for australian coal trains

Image result for australian coal trains

Then there were "old school" cars...

Related image

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: US
  • 25,292 posts
Posted by BaltACD on Friday, March 3, 2017 1:40 PM

Mookie
You know that we are both novices at this, but we will visit until the big guys come in and take over.  We have both sand and gravel thru here - sand is usually in a small covered hopper, for obvious reasons.  Gravel, I can't see into those gons like I can the coal, which is piled up in "loaves".  I don't know of a time that coal would ever travel in a closed gon like sand.  

A couple of things come to mind - coal trains are some of the longest trains that pass thru here besides mixed freight.  You don't want that much coal flapping in the breeze.  Gravel is heavy enough to not be bothered by wind and they don't fill it above the gon side like coal.  Because of weight, they use a lower profile gon.  

Sand - covered in a short, squatty hopper car. 

Cars used to haul bulk commodities are sized to fit the 'specific gravity' of the commodity and its need for protection from the elements. 

Iron Ore - real heavy and shipped in the short wheel base ore jennys in iron or country (shipped in coal hoppers elsewhere and comes nowhere near filling the cube of the car - visually the car is empty, except for the compressed springs and all the creaking done when it is moved).

River run gravel is realtively heavy, but not as heavy as iron ore and thus gons have adequate cube and capacity to handle it.

Sand (now mostly frac sand) is relatively heavy and needs protection from the elements and gets shipped in small cube covered hoppers.

Coal hoppers are sized to handle coal.

Weight and size of commodity are the reason in the container world you have 20 foot, 40 foot, 48 foot and 53 foot containers - and they all have relatively THE SAME maximum gross weight allowed.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

  • Member since
    June 2003
  • From: South Central,Ks
  • 7,170 posts
Posted by samfp1943 on Friday, March 3, 2017 1:32 PM

Euclid

I have seen products designed as covers for coal hoppers that can be opened for loading and closed for the haul.  They were alternatives to spraying the coal for dust suppression. 

 

 

    Most of the Coal trains that do come throug here are open gons, and do not seem to be blowing off any dust.   The only trains that come thru here that are covered is apparently. the cattle feed, supplement train of which each car is tarped. [The one jeff h. mentioned in a post,recently.] 

 

 


 

  • Member since
    January 2014
  • 8,221 posts
Posted by Euclid on Friday, March 3, 2017 1:04 PM

I have seen products designed as covers for coal hoppers that can be opened for loading and closed for the haul.  They were alternatives to spraying the coal for dust suppression. 

  • Member since
    March 2002
  • 9,265 posts
Posted by edblysard on Friday, March 3, 2017 12:52 PM

JPS1

Recently I observed a BNSF coal train – the cars are owned by NRG - that appeared to be in route from Wyoming to Houston.  The coal in each of the hopper cars looked like someone had smoothed it over with a shovel.  I am guessing it was the work of the wind created by the forward movement of the train.

What percentage of coal would be blown away on a typical trip from Wyoming to south Texas?  Would the loss be even over the length of the train? 

 

If you mean the top of the coal was flattened smooth and level, the oad out does that when loading the car, keeps wind resistance down along with mookies hair spray!

23 17 46 11

RME
  • Member since
    March 2016
  • 2,073 posts
Posted by RME on Friday, March 3, 2017 12:50 PM

Mookie
I don't know of a time that coal would ever travel in a closed gon like sand.

There are really good reasons - like the risk of fire and explosion.

Join our Community!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

Search the Community

Newsletter Sign-Up

By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy