That's why it's generally a good idea to send infantry in with armor. They're there to protect the armor. From getting their tracks shot off, for one. And the armor protects the infantry.
Ed
Murphy Siding A Fat Man or a LIttle Boy would stop the tank as well, but you don't need to blow it up into little pieces in order to get the job done. Tank warfare is all about firepower and mobility. All the armor and firepower in the world does nothing if the battle is miles down the road. The truth is, a lucky hit in the tracks from a 500# bomb would turn the monster into a big ol' stationary pillbox. Send in the Swordfish.
A Fat Man or a LIttle Boy would stop the tank as well, but you don't need to blow it up into little pieces in order to get the job done. Tank warfare is all about firepower and mobility. All the armor and firepower in the world does nothing if the battle is miles down the road. The truth is, a lucky hit in the tracks from a 500# bomb would turn the monster into a big ol' stationary pillbox. Send in the Swordfish.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
CSSHEGEWISCHAphrodite was a bit of a desperation move to stop the V1's and the few that didn't kill or injure their crews did little real damage to the V1 launch sites.
But that wasn't the question. It was whether the explosive effect of one of these would take out the cited vehicle ... either the actual vehicle or the hypothetical larger one. And if there's any question that 10-odd tons of high explosive would work, consider the different forms of configuration of the payload that could have been used. (Of course, this presumes no cold-solder joints in the boards, and all that, but the bugs certainly seemed to be out of the Castor system by Crossroads.)
While some of the early attempts at control weren't very good, the advent of FM-TV made a great deal of difference. I had the impression that the mission (to either the sub pens or the 'mystery' V-weapon launch sites) was largely ended by the state of the war by the time that system was in practical operation ... not because the system or the war-weary bombers were incapable at that point.
RME Shadow the Cats owner Name one bomb we had that could have penned it.
Shadow the Cats owner Name one bomb we had that could have penned it.
I got the 2 models confused someone in postwar Germany found a demand for one even larger than the Ratte. Those were the specs for it supposedly with the 50 foot height and armerments listed. Remember this about Germany they built the Gustav Rail gun that needed a crew of 3500 to set up and fire. Built and deployed the Karl Mortar a 450mm Mortar the Strumtiger a 380mm Rocket propelled artillery piece and both the ME163 and ME262 during the freaking war. The Germans were a full technological step ahead of our weapons we just flat out had more men and weapons to go at them with.
Shadow the Cats owner The proposed Ratte was over 50 Meters high it could have forded all rivers in Europe with no problems. As for being an air target it had armor 40 inches thick. Name one bomb we had that could have penned it. It was going to be armed with 2 15 inch guns 4 12.8 cm guns and 20 88 mm guns. Nothing could have stopped it.
The proposed Ratte was over 50 Meters high it could have forded all rivers in Europe with no problems. As for being an air target it had armor 40 inches thick. Name one bomb we had that could have penned it. It was going to be armed with 2 15 inch guns 4 12.8 cm guns and 20 88 mm guns. Nothing could have stopped it.
As corrected in another post, it was 36' high. Even trying to cross shallower rivers it is not guarenteed to be able to climb out of the rivers water saturated sedement banks under flow.
Shadow the Cats ownerName one bomb we had that could have penned it.
Aphrodite.
I'm afraid someone is making up some numbers, here.
The proposed Ratte was not "over 50 Meters high". Height was to be 11 meters (36'). Body width of 46', length 115'.
Nor was it to be "armed with 2 15 inch guns 4 12.8 cm guns and 20 88mm guns."
Proposed armament was 2 11 inch guns 1 12.8 cm gun and ZERO 88's.
Armor was not 40". Max was 14.2".
Just read the article. I put up a link earlier.
I tend to agree this thing would have been a mistake. But let's not forget the same folks delivered the first cruise missile (V1) and the first long range ballistic missile (V2).
This thing would have been the same thing as a nuclear carrier: a great target.
Which reminds me of this Mauldin cartoon:
I can't say I agree much with your math there. It would be a pretty tempting air target, as 50 meters is 164 feet tall. As alluded to in a post above, with all that weaponry mentioned- which really wouldn't fit on any size tank anyway- the weight would be more like 3000-4000 tons. Nothing could stop it? I doubt the thing could even move under it's own power. If it did, it would sink into the ground under it's own weight and be bogged down.
One Lancaster with a Tallboy would have ruined it beyond repair. A Grand Slam would have buried it as well as killed it.
Tallboys went all the way through Tirpitz and detonated against the water resistance under the outer skin of the double bottom. Also, I doubt that there would have been much area protected by 40 inches of armor on a BIG machine half the weight of an unarmored WWII destroyer. 40mm (average) maybe.
Also note that the twin 15's mounted in the 'B' position of a King George V class battleship were in a turret that weighed over 1000 tons - and it didn't need tracks or an integral engine. Nor was it anywhere near as big as this fanciful piece of imagineering.
Chuck (WWII history buff)
Armor that thick would indeed have been impenetrable. The many B-17 (and B-24) crews who flew missions to St. Nazaire and Lorient with the Eighth Air Force could vouch for that fact.
That snorkel would come in handy when your 100 ton tank is sunk into the mud at the bottom of a river.
Go through it.
How would they ever get that thing across a river?
7j43k I read up on the Maus, and found it to have been a diesel-electric. Perhaps no surprise there. I also found out about a proposed German tank weighing five times the Maus (1000 tons): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landkreuzer_P._1000_Ratte Noting that it was named "Landcruiser", it is certainly reminiscent of certain large SUV's. A model: Ed
I read up on the Maus, and found it to have been a diesel-electric. Perhaps no surprise there.
I also found out about a proposed German tank weighing five times the Maus (1000 tons):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landkreuzer_P._1000_Ratte
Noting that it was named "Landcruiser", it is certainly reminiscent of certain large SUV's.
A model:
Note that all of these outsize machines, in the age of airpower, shared a designator with the USN Landing Ship, Tank:
LARGE SLOW TARGET
You would think that the people who developed the Stuka should have known better. Of course Adolf, the self-proclaimed military genius, never thought the enemy might also have a few tricks up his sleeves.
Chuck [Msgt(Ret) USAF, military history buff]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schnabel_car
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/44/CPOX820.jpg/300px-CPOX820.jpg&imgrefurl=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schnabel_car&h=183&w=300&tbnid=lR2esMo6BbrFLM:&vet=1&tbnh=146&tbnw=240&docid=NnoIIt9ZqeJJ4M&usg=__GHNAB3B0S3G3un2E8bqx_HQYR_A=&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwjf4rCbrYbRAhWIRCYKHVGGCBwQ9QEIHjAA
Large Electric Utility transformers routinely us schnabel cars.
When Electric Power Utilities plan for new high voltage substations, one of the considerations they make is how big (both physical and capacity) a transformer to install. Big ones can be 300 to 500 MVA and 345,000 Volts. They determine the requirements, write specifications and then issue Requests for Proposals to manufacturers. When the bids come back they evaluate the price and also determine the shipping costs. Sometimes, the manufacturer is overseas and that can affect the shipping thus the price. Historically, Westinghouse, GE, Allis Chalmers were the major US suppliers, then Brown Bovari, Siemans, ASEA, Hitachi have competed and won bids.
After manufacture, the transformer has to be shipped to its destination. If made overseas it will arrive by ship to a dock and be offloaded to rail (or in some cases a barge).
Then they have to make special arrangements to get them from a railroad facility (or a waterway bank) to their Generating Station or Transmission Substation. They will be offloaded onto housemoving dollies and slowly moved to the facility. Heavy hauling permits with special trucks and approvals from the highway departments are involved in route approvals. Sometimes they have to put wood mats on the roads to spread the weight. Road Closings may be required. There was a specialty group where I worked that when the plans were made for the electrical facility to be built, worked with the manufacturer of the transformer to plan for the "delivery" of the transformer.
tree68 BaltACD I know of a sitation a while back where such a shipment almost went out of a shortline onto the CSX main. A shortline engineer keyed the CSX crew in on it. What struck us as unusual about this train was that those three cars (and idlers) made up the entire train.
BaltACD
I know of a sitation a while back where such a shipment almost went out of a shortline onto the CSX main. A shortline engineer keyed the CSX crew in on it.
What struck us as unusual about this train was that those three cars (and idlers) made up the entire train.
For whatever reason 'it may' have been operating in Special Train service, $105 a mile with a minimum charge of $25K + freight charges.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACDA lot of steel plate gets shipped...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68 Saw a "high and wide" go through Utica westbound last night - it was about three loaded cars and, as I recall, there were idler cars between them. They must have been wide - they weren't very high.
Saw a "high and wide" go through Utica westbound last night - it was about three loaded cars and, as I recall, there were idler cars between them. They must have been wide - they weren't very high.
A lot of steel plate gets shipped - the plates themselves are only 10'6" wide (the width of 40 or 50 box cars), however due to their length they must be handled on 89 foot flats. Being that long (or longer) the shipments create a Wide condition when they negotiate curves. CSX clearances designate that clearance cars must be handled within 5 cars of the engines. The clearance wire will designate locations (by milepost) where trains on adjacent tracks can pass with one train stopped and the other moving at 10 MPH. The clearance wire will also designate locations (by milepost) where the wide car cannot pass other equipment. There may be other restrictions as dictated by the physical characteristics of specific territories.
Murphy Siding I imagine when you're moving a million dollar piece of equipment utilizing the only mode of transportation possible, there's not much quibbling over the price anyway.
I imagine when you're moving a million dollar piece of equipment utilizing the only mode of transportation possible, there's not much quibbling over the price anyway.
I would guess that the 'Tule of Thumb' for one of those moves, is probably a case:",,, If you have to ask the price, You probably cannot afford it!.."
When the 'decision' is reached that you have one of those Oversized/Overdiamensional items to go from point A to Point B. The 'Beancounters' look at all the ways to do it, without 'breaking it'. "Cheap" leaves the conversation, almost immediately. Reality then rides in on a magic carpet of 'Dead Presidents'.
Murphy Siding I've seen Schnable cars sitting at the rail yard in Duluth, MN. They look like a pretty interesting piece of engineering work. How do you think they price a move by a Schnable car? Would it be something like $2,000 freight plus $50,000 Fat Alice surcharge? Or would it just be one charge @ $52,000 thank you? Because these cars might not move a lot, are they typically railroad owned or third party owned?
Don't know the complete answer. On CSX the charge for a Special Train is $25K + $105 per mile. I have no idea what the shipper/consignee has to pay for the lease of the schnable cars if they don't own them. Railroads do not invest in schnable cars. I doubt that their lease comes cheap and they are on the hook from the time the car arrives at the loading location until the car has been released empty at the unloading location. I am certain that the shipper & consignee will also have to hire local rigging contractors to assist in loading and unloading the shipment, as well as setting it up at destination. I have no real idea of the freight charges for what is being moved, however, with high value, high weight and being oversized - it won't be cheap.
Big ticket operation in all aspects of the movement from manufacturer to user.
I've seen Schnable cars sitting at the rail yard in Duluth, MN. They look like a pretty interesting piece of engineering work. How do you think they price a move by a Schnable car? Would it be something like $2,000 freight plus $50,000 Fat Alice surcharge? Or would it just be one charge @ $52,000 thank you? Because these cars might not move a lot, are they typically railroad owned or third party owned?
Shadow the Cats owner Murphy my husband is saying your talking about the Maus tank and yes she was going to be a beast. Think 200 tons on land powered by a U-boat engine with 1500 HP a 128mm Main gun a 75 mm secondary gun flamethrower in the rear and several 20mm guns for close in defense. There is one of these monsters that does exsist it was captured at the factory by the Soviet Union and is at their tank museum. The British got another unfinished hull and their 32 pound gun could only dent the armor. The Russian 122mm the best gun they had could not penetrate it. How did the Russians get it home they Drove it home from Germany.
Murphy my husband is saying your talking about the Maus tank and yes she was going to be a beast. Think 200 tons on land powered by a U-boat engine with 1500 HP a 128mm Main gun a 75 mm secondary gun flamethrower in the rear and several 20mm guns for close in defense. There is one of these monsters that does exsist it was captured at the factory by the Soviet Union and is at their tank museum. The British got another unfinished hull and their 32 pound gun could only dent the armor. The Russian 122mm the best gun they had could not penetrate it. How did the Russians get it home they Drove it home from Germany.
edblysardAnd they bring their own Jeep Liberty service SUV with them.
Looks like 36 axles of fun there!
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