Just my two cents worth, but wouldn't it be more efficient to remove from Chicago traffic that doesn't need to go there? It might be, but no one is willing to pay the price. They must enjoy whining about the delays.
Norm
Norm48327 Just my two cents worth, but wouldn't it be more efficient to remove from Chicago traffic that doesn't need to go there? It might be, but no one is willing to pay the price. They must enjoy whining about the delays.
Over the years all the carriers have worked out interchange plans for their normal traffic to determine the most efficient manners and locations for all the carriers involved in the move. The outgrowth of these interchange plans has been the growth of 'run-through trains' between carriers that move from major classification terminal to major classification terminal on both sides of Chicago (and the other gateway areas) and the trains at most stop in Chicago (or other gateways) for a most a crew change. Other trains bring Chicago Switching area traffic to Chicago to be switched to the customers. One thing many overlook about Chicago is the amount of traffic that actuall goes to customers in the Chicago Switching area.
The multi-carrier control center was an idea that has been more than twenty years in bringing to fulfillment. Being able to interact on a face to face basis with all the controlling parties in real time is something the Chicago area has never had - dealing with real people beats dealing with disembodied voices over telephones that are not answered in a timely fashion by seveal thousand percent. While telephones may permit communication, they also generate frustrations and develop a 'us vs. them' bunker mentality.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
There used to be outer belt lines south of Cicago, and car ferries north of Chicago across Lake Michigan that advertised they avoided the congestion, but most of the outer belt lines are gone or little used, and all the car ferries are gone. St Louis is also underutilized. The western lines want the longer haul to Chicago.
The Lake Michigan carferries, with the exception of the routes to Kewaunee, were not really intended as Chicago bypass routes. They did give customers on the western shore of the lake better rates to eastern markets.
Rate divisions under ICC regulation go a long way in explaining why bypass routes like the EJ&E, TP&W and the Kankakee Belt were under-utilized in either direction.
CN is using the former Outer-Belt, the EJ&E, to reduce Chicago congestion, but there is not much more additional capacity to handle pairs of carriers' traffic that dooesen't interchange with CN. St. Louis is also congested at this time, and connections to the east are more limited than they were and more limited than Chicago.
TP&W shared assets? Conrail midwest at another location?
How much will it cost? Who will pay for it? Is it worth it?
The CIROC is useless, nothing more than a window dressing so it looks aa like something is being done. It has no power, and at best is a mediator between railroads. It is a punchline in the Chicago railroad scene.
An "expensive model collector"
I never understood the relatively new practice of CP trains waiting just beyond METRA territory, North of Rondout, IL in a holding yard waiting for a window to operate to the Bensenville cutoff. Put down another track for Pete's Sake between Rondout and the cutoff (yes there is room for that), why waste that fuel and employee time.......understood it is expensive but the current practice makes railroads look penny wise and pound foolish to the public.
CMStPnP Norm48327 Just my two cents worth, but wouldn't it be more efficient to remove from Chicago traffic that doesn't need to go there? It might be, but no one is willing to pay the price. They must enjoy whining about the delays. I never understood the relatively new practice of CP trains waiting just beyond METRA territory, North of Rondout, IL in a holding yard waiting for a window to operate to the Bensenville cutoff. Put down another track for Pete's Sake between Rondout and the cutoff (yes there is room for that), why waste that fuel and employee time.......understood it is expensive but the current practice makes railroads look penny wise and pound foolish to the public.
You have to work with the facilities you have - not the facilities you may want. Signalled track (before PTC) was going for $2M a mile (more if you had to secure right of way) - how much return on that investment will you get from the additional track? With the super size trains that are being operated by all carriers today - should they be held in the middle of commuter territory, blocking road crossings while waiting for yard space?
Right!! Seems that it would be more efficient to use St.L, for example, but that would mean a big change from what's been done for years.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Keep in mind that Rondout is where ownership changes. It's CP to the north, and Metra to the south.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
schlimm Norm48327 Just my two cents worth, but wouldn't it be more efficient to remove from Chicago traffic that doesn't need to go there? It might be, but no one is willing to pay the price. They must enjoy whining about the delays. Right!! Seems that it would be more efficient to use St.L, for example, but that would mean a big change from what's been done for years.
Not big change - big dollars. Rate divisions work against St.Louis, Memphis and New Orleans as alternate gateways between East & West. Just like in any other form of human activity - follow the money.
BaltACD The multi-carrier control center was an idea that has been more than twenty years in bringing to fulfillment.
The multi-carrier control center was an idea that has been more than twenty years in bringing to fulfillment.
Essentially the railroad version of an Air Traffic Control Center/ tower.
BaltACD . . . Being able to interact on a face to face basis with all the controlling parties in real time is something the Chicago area has never had - dealing with real people beats dealing with disembodied voices over telephones that are not answered in a timely fashion by seveal thousand percent. While telephones may permit communication, they also generate frustrations and develop a 'us vs. them' bunker mentality.
- Paul North.
Eastern and Western railroads have different measures, and will not negatively affect their indices to make their connection's indices improve. Chicago needs some manner of flow control at times, and needs greater flexibility in routing trains thru Chicago. But CSX won't hold a train at Willard because of congestion on the UP, and vice-versa.Ashland Av. is not really a good place for unit train interchanges between UP and NS, for example. But neither road wants to pay the
Ashland Av. is not really a good place for unit train interchanges between UP and NS, for example. But neither road wants to pay the switch charge for operating their run-thru trains on IHB or BRC. The Chicago Op Center can't fix that.
Transcontinental mergers would certainly help, as they eliminate the 'divisions' issue. But that may be impossible -- for now.
Jack Fuller
jgfullerEastern and Western railroads have different measures, and will not negatively affect their indices to make their connection's indices improve. Chicago needs some manner of flow control at times, and needs greater flexibility in routing trains thru Chicago. But CSX won't hold a train at Willard because of congestion on the UP, and vice-versa.Ashland Av. is not really a good place for unit train interchanges between UP and NS, for example. But neither road wants to pay the Ashland Av. is not really a good place for unit train interchanges between UP and NS, for example. But neither road wants to pay the switch charge for operating their run-thru trains on IHB or BRC. The Chicago Op Center can't fix that. Transcontinental mergers would certainly help, as they eliminate the 'divisions' issue. But that may be impossible -- for now.
It is amazing what can happen when 'opppsing forces' have to work out thier positions face to face and not hiding behind a telephone.
BaltACD jgfuller Eastern and Western railroads have different measures, and will not negatively affect their indices to make their connection's indices improve. Chicago needs some manner of flow control at times, and needs greater flexibility in routing trains thru Chicago. But CSX won't hold a train at Willard because of congestion on the UP, and vice-versa.Ashland Av. is not really a good place for unit train interchanges between UP and NS, for example. But neither road wants to pay the Ashland Av. is not really a good place for unit train interchanges between UP and NS, for example. But neither road wants to pay the switch charge for operating their run-thru trains on IHB or BRC. The Chicago Op Center can't fix that. Transcontinental mergers would certainly help, as they eliminate the 'divisions' issue. But that may be impossible -- for now. It is amazing what can happen when 'opppsing forces' have to work out thier positions face to face and not hiding behind a telephone.
jgfuller Eastern and Western railroads have different measures, and will not negatively affect their indices to make their connection's indices improve. Chicago needs some manner of flow control at times, and needs greater flexibility in routing trains thru Chicago. But CSX won't hold a train at Willard because of congestion on the UP, and vice-versa.Ashland Av. is not really a good place for unit train interchanges between UP and NS, for example. But neither road wants to pay the Ashland Av. is not really a good place for unit train interchanges between UP and NS, for example. But neither road wants to pay the switch charge for operating their run-thru trains on IHB or BRC. The Chicago Op Center can't fix that. Transcontinental mergers would certainly help, as they eliminate the 'divisions' issue. But that may be impossible -- for now.
The CIROC does not get people "face to face". It is one person sitting in the CIROC office, mediating any Chicago Terminal disagreements over the phone with the involved carriers. They are located in the Metra Operation Center, no freight carriers are located in that building. The CIROC has no power, if railroads can't or won't take the train, they won't. The CIROC can not force a train on a railroad.
The CIROC has done one good thing so far, they have mergerd the railroad carriers CADS screens into one. Now one can see just about everything going on in the city. Even that is not without its faults, as the CN refuses to give access to some of their lines. It is also even hard to give CIROC credit for the new screens, as it had been a project put into motion by the CTCO years ago.
The question is whether the face-to-face people have the authority to impose the trade-offs needed for successful co-operation.
jgfullerThe question is whether the face-to-face people have the authority to impose the trade-offs needed for successful co-operation.
If they don't abolish the positions and the bosses who didn't relinquish the authority.
The positions you speak of abolishing would be General Managers and Superintendents. They have certain performance measures, such as running trains on schedules. A Superintendent overseeing Clinton IA isn't going to hold a train there for later delivery to CSX, without receiving some manner of waiver on his schedule performance. And, last I looked, there weren't any 'asterisks' on Division managers' performance measures. So until that occurs, the likelihood of cooperation during stressed periods is very low.
jgfullerThe positions you speak of abolishing would be General Managers and Superintendents. They have certain performance measures, such as running trains on schedules. A Superintendent overseeing Clinton IA isn't going to hold a train there for later delivery to CSX, without receiving some manner of waiver on his schedule performance. And, last I looked, there weren't any 'asterisks' on Division managers' performance measures. So until that occurs, the likelihood of cooperation during stressed periods is very low.
You would be surprised! Fluidity beats stagnation every time. When you have fluidity you meet your goals. When you don't 'play ball' the other players will ensure your stagnation.
See:
"River Wars 1: Life along the Mississippi - Competition and cooperation between UP and SP (MP and SSW)" by Frailey, Fred W. from Trains May 1988 p. 26
"River Wars 2: Of hares, tortoises, mules and Big Sweet Mama - Competition and cooperation along the Missouri River" by Frailey, Fred W. from Trains June 1988 p. 40
The best story was of an incident where one of Rob Kreb's priority trains was held for 45 mins., either as a breach (or mistake) of an agreement, or for no good reason. The next day he ordered that an important train of the offending railroad "see nothing but green signals" until it got to a certain diverging turnout that was critical to its route - and to then hold it there for exactly the same 45 min. delay his train had suffered. At that time he made sure he wasn't in his office or at his house, so no one from the other railroad could reach him to complain (this was back in the day before cell phones, etc.). I believe the other railroad got the message . . .
An over-the-top stunt, but perhaps necessary. Too bad he isn't still in the business . . . maybe he should be appointed Czar of Chicago Railroading, his forceful personality (and track record like this) might be able to accomplish a lot !
Paul_D_North_JrSee: "River Wars 1: Life along the Mississippi - Competition and cooperation between UP and SP (MP and SSW)" by Frailey, Fred W. from Trains May 1988 p. 26 "River Wars 2: Of hares, tortoises, mules and Big Sweet Mama - Competition and cooperation along the Missouri River" by Frailey, Fred W. from Trains June 1988 p. 40 The best story was of an incident where one of Rob Kreb's priority trains was held for 45 mins., either as a breach (or mistake) of an agreement, or for no good reason. The next day he ordered that an important train of the offending railroad "see nothing but green signals" until it got to a certain diverging turnout that was critical to its route - and to then hold it there for exactly the same 45 min. delay his train had suffered. At that time he made sure he wasn't in his office or at his house, so no one from the other railroad could reach him to complain (this was back in the day before cell phones, etc.). I believe the other railroad got the message . . . An over-the-top stunt, but perhaps necessary. Too bad he isn't still in the business . . . maybe he should be appointed Czar of Chicago Railroading, his forceful personality (and track record like this) might be able to accomplish a lot ! - Paul North.
An honored part of railroading - 'Paybacks are a 'female dog'!
Whatever you do to me, I can do to you WORSE!. Cooperation beats grandstanding for both parties.
I'm sure that "running" Chicago is probably like a massive game of chess - every piece as its own rules and keeping the pieces out of each other's way is a major challenge.
And while I'm sure that things could go so sour in minutes that it would take days to sort it out, I'd also opine that, as Balt notes, that with some cooperation (ie, give and take - a little hit here means a little bump there), everyone would be happier in the end.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
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