circa 1970 Cleveland, Ohio
Returning from a Cleveland Browns game with my brother we came upon a train blocking the grade crossing. This was on a very narrow city street with little chance for us or anyone else to turn around. We were about 8 or 10 cars from the track and only the locomotive blocked the street. We waited about 25 minutes along with all of the other frustrated drivers. So I told my brother who was driving that "I will be right back". So off I go heading toward the locomotive armed with nothing but my total ignorance of the law and railroad rules. As I climb up toward the cab I can hear the engineer on the radio telling someone that " They are climbing on the train now". So I ask the engineer if he could just move the locomotive 1 car length so the line of traffic can pass. He told me that he could not move the train without permission from his dispatcher. So I asked him (nicely) if I could speak with the dispatcher. He obliged my request so I told the dispatcher that it was a good thing that the Browns had won the game and that the waiting motorists were in a pretty good mood. I explained to the dispatcher that if the engineer would just bunch up the slack on the train that the locomotive would clear the crossing. To my disbelief the dispather instructed the engineer to do just that. After I climed down from the locomotive the engineer sounded his horn and moved the train the 1 car length. I walked back to my brother's car to the cheers of my fellow motorists and Browns fans. I know that this seem like an unlikely tail ( about the Browns winning a game ) but it is true. My question is how much trouble would I be in today if I were 19 again and pulled this stupid stunt in the year 2016 ? - thanks
I think you were lucky to get the engineer you had--he was probably trying to humor you, though you seemed to know what you were talking about (slack, etc.). If the engineer was discussing the plight on the radio, he obviously recognized, and probably sympathized with, the problem. Nowadays you'd be turned in the moment you set foot on the locomotive.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Actually, in this day and age in all likelyhood the railroad would be ticketed and fined for blocking a street for an inordinate amount of time.
Kind of odd they stopped the train with the locomotive blocking the crossing. I wonder why they didn't stop just short of it to leave the street open.
Be thankful that carriers don't permit T&E personnel to carry guns.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD Be thankful that carriers don't permit T&E personnel to carry guns.
So, a motorist boarding a stopped locomotive to ask the crew to unblock the crossing -- is justification for using deadly force?
Judge: So what justification did you have for shooting, let alone brandishing your weapon? Why couldn't you stay in the cab, give a radio report, and have the Sheriff come and arrest the trespasser?
Crew member: Um, when the Sheriff would come, he would issue me a citation for blocking the crossing contrary to local law?
Judge: (bangs gavel) Suspect remanded to custody without bail until trial on the charge of manslaughter. Next!
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
This thing about "we are the railroad (airline/big company) and we have the force of the law behind us."
An American Airlines Boeing 767 stopped a takeoff at O'Hare International, with an engine on fire and the passengers escaping on slides. Press reports are confusing about a blown tire and an engine "explosion." It is too early to tell whether the blown tire wrecked the jet engine or the jet engine failed and took out the tire.
A passenger recounting the "incident" speaks of a fire on one side of the aircraft causing windows "to melt" and "smoke to enter the cabin, within seconds", of passengers on the burning side of the plane piling over to the not-burning side and "demanding that the exits be opened."
So much for the Miracle on the Hudson flight crew taking charge, ordering the passengers to "brace for impact", keep their "heads down, stay down", and then conduct an orderly evacuation. Here, it appears, that the passengers had to beg to be permitted to escape an aircraft that was on fire.
Good thing the whole lot of them didn't get arrested for "interfering with a flight crew."
I hear that at O'Hare they will clear a plane to takeoff on a runway where the plane ahead is still taking off. Suppose they had performed this stunt when that American 767 came to a screeching halt with one engine on fire? Would the plane behind be able to stop, or would they have a rear ender like what happens on the freeway?
I have seen this happen in Atlanta -- the jet in front of us swings onto the active runway and starts taking off. We swing onto the runway right behind them, and as we do, I see the jet in front continue its takeoff roll from my window.
I am thinking that we were cleared to "position and hold" for the other jet to lift off, but instead, we right away start our takeoff from a rolling start. Pre 9-11, I may have said something to the crew on deplaning, but in today's interfering-with-a-flight-crew-environment, mum's the word. Besides, the flight-deck crew are nowhere to be found.
So a week later I get an e-mail nag from the airline to "fill out an evaluation." I dislike those things, but they send another nagging e-mail and I fill it out. They have this whole checklist of things you are supposed to evaluate, including whether the flight-deck crew "thanked you" on your way out the door.
So in the comments section, I tell them what happened. I mean you guys won't leave me alone, so I will fill you in. I explained everything about the rolling takeoff behind a plane still taking off ahead of it, asking if we are risking a rear-end collision if the plane ahead were to stop its takeoff?
That comment prompted phone calls from the airline tracking me down. I explained exactly what I said in the comments. Then I got this "corporate mode" of "I am sure the crew received a proper clearance." I replied, "Yes, you can receive a clearance, but it is up to the Captain to accept or reject that clearance as it is ultimately the Captain who is responsible for safety by making the proper decision. This is true of a jet, and this is true of a Great Lakes freighter (recounted in a talk to a local NMRA chapter by a boat captain)."
No, a person really shouldn't ever climb up on a locomotive. But a person should be able to hail a locomotive crew who is blocking a crossing and ask what gives?
But no, the operators of these conveyances reign supreme, and a person deserves arrest for "interfering with a flight/train/boat crew", even if they are endangering safety. Go ahead, scold the person who did this as a young man some years before our current hyper-paranoid environment. These things cannot be communicated passenger-to-crew, so they will go up the corporate chain or maybe get the rule-making authorities involved. Things that were resolved informally, man-to-man, will hence forward by resolved by internal and external investigations and boards of inquiry.
I mean that is what you are asking for, when you talk to this man about the train crew having guns, isn't it?
CShaveRR Nowadays you'd be turned in the moment you set foot on the locomotive.
Nowadays you'd be turned in the moment you set foot on the locomotive.
That's the thing. Don't ever set foot on the locomotive. Nowadays everyone has a cell phone. Call 9-11 -- your emergency is that the train is blocking the crossing for an inordinate amount of time and endangering public safety. Call the Sheriff. Write to the railroad. Write to the mayor, write to the Federal Railway Administration and the National Transportation Board.
You won't get in any trouble at all for doing this but a whole lot of other people may. But that is they way people want such situations to be resolved judging by remarks here, isn't it?
Paul MilenkovicI hear that at O'Hare they will clear a plane to takeoff on a runway where the plane ahead is still taking off. Suppose they had performed this stunt when that American 767 came to a screeching halt with one engine on fire? Would the plane behind be able to stop, or would they have a rear ender like what happens on the freeway?
I know this is rather tangential to your point, but I felt like it was worth answering. The simple answer is that planes have to be spaced several nautical miles apart to avoid wake turbulence, and this spacing gives adequate time for any following aircraft to succesfully reject takeoff if there is an emergency in a preceding plane.
ATC also often clears multiple aircraft to land on a given runway at the same time, and if anything goes wrong such as aircraft failing to clear the runway the next arrival simply performs a go-around. There are far worse opportunities for error in the air traffic control system.
The reason why the evacuation was delayed on the American Airlines flight is that it is critical for the other engine to spool down before people walk in front of it. It can be scary, but it would be bad to have people sucked into the engines, too. The fire didn't manage to penetrate the interior cabin wall at all.
What would you do if your car were blocking the sidewalk, and a stranger got in the car with you to complain about it? If you had a gun, what would happen?
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
NorthWest Paul Milenkovic I hear that at O'Hare they will clear a plane to takeoff on a runway where the plane ahead is still taking off. Suppose they had performed this stunt when that American 767 came to a screeching halt with one engine on fire? Would the plane behind be able to stop, or would they have a rear ender like what happens on the freeway? I know this is rather tangential to your point, but I felt like it was worth answering. The simple answer is that planes have to be spaced several nautical miles apart to avoid wake turbulence, and this spacing gives adequate time for any following aircraft to succesfully reject takeoff if there is an emergency in a preceding plane. ATC also often clears multiple aircraft to land on a given runway at the same time, and if anything goes wrong such as aircraft failing to clear the runway the next arrival simply performs a go-around. There are far worse opportunities for error in the air traffic control system. The reason why the evacuation was delayed on the American Airlines flight is that it is critical for the other engine to spool down before people walk in front of it. It can be scary, but it would be bad to have people sucked into the engines, too. The fire didn't manage to penetrate the interior cabin wall at all.
Paul Milenkovic I hear that at O'Hare they will clear a plane to takeoff on a runway where the plane ahead is still taking off. Suppose they had performed this stunt when that American 767 came to a screeching halt with one engine on fire? Would the plane behind be able to stop, or would they have a rear ender like what happens on the freeway?
A number of years ago I flew into O'Hare and our flight had to wait for our gate to become clear. Where our flight stopped I was able to view a portion of the active runway (which was landing flights at the time). Looking at my trusty railroad watch second hand - the landing flights were going past my vantage point every 45 seconds. I don't know how that translates to flights being clear of the active runway and other arriving flights being ready to touch down - but that was a awful lot of planes in a short time.
NorthWestI know this is rather tangential to your point, but I felt like it was worth answering. The simple answer is that planes have to be spaced several nautical miles apart to avoid wake turbulence, and this spacing gives adequate time for any following aircraft to succesfully reject takeoff if there is an emergency in a preceding plane. ATC also often clears multiple aircraft to land on a given runway at the same time, and if anything goes wrong such as aircraft failing to clear the runway the next arrival simply performs a go-around. There are far worse opportunities for error in the air traffic control system. The reason why the evacuation was delayed on the American Airlines flight is that it is critical for the other engine to spool down before people walk in front of it. It can be scary, but it would be bad to have people sucked into the engines, too. The fire didn't manage to penetrate the interior cabin wall at all.
I think Northwest pretty well cleared the fog on this. The controllers have some very strict rules to follow and can lose their jobs for violating them. True, controllers occasionally err, but those moments are few and far between. Sepeartion on the runway is one of their primary tasks.
Norm
Everything is alot stricter now... I suspect you'd find yourself in a lot of trouble if you did that today. When I was a kid back in the 70s it was ok to climb up on locomotives for no other reason than to chat with the crew... my brother and I did that often enough. I wouldn't dare do that now..
What about climbing on top of a boxcar in a spur track? I saw a man and a woman going at it on the roofwalk of a boxcar when I was a kid.
54light15 What about climbing on top of a boxcar in a spur track? I saw a man and a woman going at it on the roofwalk of a boxcar when I was a kid.
Our amorous couple would likely settle for a gondola or centerbeam instead.. youth and hormones don't care.
CSSHEGEWISCHand the ladders are just long enough for a brakeman to hold on during a switching move.
If he's short. I'm 6'5" - sometimes hanging on is a challenge.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
So lets jump to Novemer 2016. The locomotive is blocking the way. Which would bring the quickist solution? Calling 911 and ask for assistance (a lower priority for an active police force.) Or calling the RR using the number on the cross bucks and nicely asking for a back-up move? If no action repeat the call to the RR? Would be interesting if you walk back to tell the other stuck folks to call the RR too! As the old saying goes "light up the switch board" and turn it into a RR problem for whomever mans these phone lines.
Call 911 and tell em your pregnant and about to pop.. that will get things moving.
seppburgh2Calling 911 and ask for assistance (a lower priority for an active police force.) Or calling the RR using the number on the cross bucks and nicely asking for a back-up move?
Most 9-1-1 centers with active railroads have the RR emergency number available. Or not. Even if it is available you may run into 1) not an emergency or 2) that particular call taker has no idea what to do.
The problem with the number on the crossbuck is that unless you are like those of us who have said number saved in our phones, or you're close enough to read it, you're going to have to get out of your vehicle and walk toward the crossing until you can read it...
Airplane separation rules landing and take offs are not all cut and dried. It all depends on the preceeding airplanes speed, gross weight, wind conditions. Tail winds present some more difficult rules. Cross winds can either affect depending on velocity and direction. Stronger winds 10 - 15 knots can make it easy for closer separation. Following a jumbo jet can increase separation requirements due to wake turbulence. That is a reason for not adding a larger aircraft to a to / landing mix actually slows down capacity. oi
Ulrich Call 911 and tell em your pregnant and about to pop.. that will get things moving.
It would bring a cop to your car, but not necessarily move the train... and if you were a guy saying you are pregnant, it might not bring a cop at all to you car, but a detective and a cop in uniform to your house to arrest you for filing a false report.
One night at about 2 AM, i heard a lot of commotion at the church behind my house and when I looked I could see people with fiashlights carrying things out the back door of the church to a van. I called the police to report a possible burglary... I was told to go ask them what they were doing. I asked if I should take my shotgun to protect myself in case they were hostile burglars.
I was told that if they were not burglars, then I was subject to arrest for filing a false report.
I told her that if I did have a gun, I'd go shoot the lot of them and let the police morning shift come clean up after they had their donut and coffee. Then I hung up and went back to bed.
I don't know if the place was burglarized or not, and I don't know if the police came to check it out or not. I did my civic duty and went back to sleep.
By now the signals and track circuitry should have been upgraded to show that any long train is interfering with the grade crossing or setting off the grade crossing signal.
Watch my videos on-line at https://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewNeilFalconer
Andrew FalconerBy now the signals and track circuitry should have been upgraded to show that any long train is interfering with the grade crossing or setting off the grade crossing signal.
And just who is the 'upgraded circurtry' notifying?
The same people at the dispatching control center that are setting off grade crossing signals at each crossing, even though the train passed through the area over 10 minutes earlier.
Andrew FalconerThe same people at the dispatching control center that are setting off grade crossing signals at each crossing, even though the train passed through the area over 10 minutes earlier.
There is no interaction between Dispatchers and road crossing protection. Crossing protection is activated by circuitry that is germaine to the individual crossing. Crossing protection works on both track that is signalled and track that is not signalled.
In signalled territory a trains location is identified by it's activation of a Track Occupancy Light. Depending upon the spcifics of individual territories, the single TOL may cover a territory of 1/10 of a mile - or it can cover 15 miles or more. Each territory is different.
Dispatchers will report to the Signal Department when a train is known to have departed the territory of a particular TOL and the TOL has stayed on. When these happenings are investigated by the signal maintainer they will most likely find one of two conditions - 1. a bond wire that electrically connects rails at a rail joint has broken. 2. a broken rail is found.
Andrew Falconer The same people at the dispatching control center that are setting off grade crossing signals at each crossing, even though the train passed through the area over 10 minutes earlier.
As noted by Balt, the dispatcher has nothing to do with the crossing protection. With PTC, etc., going as it is, it won't be long before dispatchers may be able see a status on a given crossing protection, but an ongoing display on the dispatchers board would contribute to information overload...
Crossing protection that activates when there's no train in the circuit is usually the result of some flaw in the sensing circuits. It's a battle the signal maintainers constantly fight, especially in the northern climes where highway salt is part of the mix.
A slight correction on my opening statement - the dispatcher does get involved when a problem is reported with a crossing - false activations or activation failures. Those must be related to crews operating in the area.
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