Houston has it, but I reckon not many other cities do......

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken

Ed:

FYI - USGS Library photo archives (Denver Federal Center) has photos 1880-1910 in the Houston area with elderly 4-4-0's switching in the woods around Houston & Baytown/Mt. Belview. USGS took photos of the terrain, flora & fauna with these odd iron monsters in the background of timber operations. May not exactly be the urban centers you are interested in, but they are roughly the same area. USGS is a packrat in preserving old photos.

Mudchicken, is it one of those 4-4-0s in the archive photos the same as the one on the Houston City Seal?
(seal can be seen on www.cityofhouston.gov - then click on About Houston, then click on City Government )

Dave

[Anonymous]

There is a book by Zlatkovich (spelling may be bad and I do not know his first name) that is a compilation of the additions and abandonments by year of the records of the Railroad Commission of Texas. Very little text and lots of tables. This might be a good source to in\dentify the 18 lines into Houston.

[espeefoamer]

How is the engine at Enron Field powered?

[mudchicken]

Ed:

FYI - USGS Library photo archives (Denver Federal Center) has photos 1880-1910 in the Houston area with elderly 4-4-0's switching in the woods around Houston & Baytown/Mt. Belview. USGS took photos of the terrain, flora & fauna with these odd iron monsters in the background of timber operations. May not exactly be the urban centers you are interested in, but they are roughly the same area. USGS is a packrat in preserving old photos.

[edblysard]

Thanks,,,
Was wondering, with all the Katy fans out there, if there was a site with more photos than I found...slim pickings.

Got the web site address?
Ed

[Anonymous]

Ed--

Katy Power has a bunch of photos of the Houston station.

[Anonymous]

Your statements are likely accurate from the evidence I have from my own observations in the area. I have little doubt the web photos you refer to are the same as those I have seen, given the low number of photos on this subject. It would be remarkable to me to find photos of the near Chinatown and Commerce districts in their heyday, as well as the upper San Jacinto and Nance St. areas. The traffic must have been impressive at one time.

One of the things on my "to do" list one of these days is to begin a more comprehensive search of local archives. A lot has been written on the architectural history of Houston's residential districts, but I feel a larger and
and more interesting history of commercial Houston has not yet been told.

[edblysard]

Would hazzard a guess that if you removed the upper layer of asphalt, almost every street in downtown Houston and the near west side would have rail in place...
And you'r correct, the lack of historical photos is sad...I had to search the web for over a hour to find one photo of the old SP Grand Central, and one photo of the Katy's passenger station, both lack detail...

Ed

[Anonymous]

I thought I would chime in on the Houston topic....

When you guys mentioned Houston Railroads you omitted the Galveston-Houston Electric that terminated near the Rice Hotel. It entered Galveston via the old causeway and ran underneath the palms on Broadway. The power lines that run south to Galveston and parallel Texas 3 through the NASA area were built on the old right of way.

Also, on a more obscure note, there was the Houston Street Railways (not to be confused with the local trolley lines). They operated a very short industrial line to a factory district in the Heights. You can still see the right of way along Ashland St. next to the Houston Heights Water Works.

The one thing that amazes me is that with all of the visible remains of what must have been a massive industrial switching infrastucture all over the Commerce St. and warehouse districts near downtown, very few readily available historical photos of these areas seem to exist. I have many times in the past few years seen construction crews pulling switch frogs out form underneath old asphalt during the street rebuilding in these areas (not to mention where the trolleys ran). Many signs of the old rights-of-way are still visible, particularly on Commerce St. and in the vicinity of St. Emmanuel, Polk and Leeland Streets.

[edblysard]

The loco is about 1/2 scale, big enough to be seen from the entire stadium.
I have yet to step foot inside Minitue Maid Park, (Enron Field) because I am still pissed off they tore up Union Station.
Granted, the facade of the station still exsist, but the fact that the rooms and offices where I worked and trained are now a gift shop rubs me the wrong way.
The marble floors and stairs are gone, most likely destroyed.

We allowed a major part of our city history to be destroyed to build a new ball park, when the Astrodome sits a few miles away, and seats more people, all because the owner of the Astros wanted a new showcase park, with a roof that opens.
As far as I can tell, the Astros screw up just as regularly in the new park as they did in the Dome...and the Dome had A/C...

Ed

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by drephpe

BIG. Not sure as to actual size but Ed may know. Interesting replica of wood burning 19th century steam loco on seal--has no visible means of support (i.e., no tender). Runs anyway. Maybe Enron also altered the laws of Physics.[(-D][:-,]

Of all the State and City Seals that I have been able to view, the Houston City Seal seems to have the most obvious reference to railways, as the loco is quite large in proportion to the rest of the Seal.

Dave

[Anonymous]

BIG. Not sure as to actual size but Ed may know. Interesting replica of wood burning 19th century steam loco on seal--has no visible means of support (i.e., no tender). Runs anyway. Maybe Enron also altered the laws of Physics.[(-D][:-,]

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by drephpe

Hate to correct Ed, but Burlington and the Rock did not form the Fort Worth & Denver (nee Fort Worth and Denver City) under the Texas law. The FW&D was the Texas subsidiary of the Colorado & Southern formed under the Texas law, and it ran from Fort Worth northwest through Wichita Falls and Amarillo to the state line at Texline out past Dalhart in the Panhandle, with branches to Abilene, Lubbock and a few other places. C&S (FW&D) purchased the failing and incomplete (Cleburne-Mexia had been built) Trinity & Brazos Valley in 1905 with the provision that they would sell 1/2 interest to CRI&G (Chicago Rock Island and Gulf) within a year, which they did. They jointly ran over the line using trackage rights over GC&SF between Cleburne and Ft Worth and over MKT between Waxahatchie and Dallas. The line was complete to Houston in 1907, but failed in 1914 and was forced into receivership. In 1930 it was reorganized as the Burlington-Rock Island Railroad Company (B-RI), with operating authority in alternating 5 year periods, with RI taking the first turn in 1931. Dallas-Fort Worth was RI operated jointly by B-RI. This whole arrangement lasted until RI's closure in 1980, and BN bought the half interest in B-RI from the RI trustee, retaining rights over the MKT into Dallas, and BNSF got the MKT Waxahatchie line as part of the UP merger-related deals. The DFW line had been operated by MKT under a Directed Service Order associated with the bankruptcy, and Dallas Area Rapid Transit and the City of Ft Worth got it as part of the breakup (this is the TRE line), and BNSF still has rights, as does UP. By the way, the Dallas Union Terminal Co. had RI running its trackage (allegedly because it was by that time "impartial" with respect to the big RRs running through there--all the freight lines save SP went through UTCo) at the time of the bankruptcy and, like the B-RI, maintenance got so bad on many days they couldn't get ATK in and out of the remaining station tracks because of poor maintenance on the pneumatic switch machines, and of course the freight operators had the same problems on the 3 outside freight tracks.

Probably more info than you want.

By the way, (back to Ed's post) it's a fascinating study to look at all the SP/T&NO predecessors and subsidiaries that came into Houston, including the Buffalo Bayou, Brazos & Colorado (1853); Houston & Texas Central (1856); Houston East & West Texas (a former 3' gauge line); Galveston, Harrisburg & San Antonio (1870); Dayton & Goose Creek (technically in the suburbs); Texas & New Orleans (1859); and San Antonio & Aransas Pass.

And, not only is a locomotive on the Houston seal, but also a replica runs across the outside wall behind the outfield at Minute Maid park as part of the show when the Astros hit a homer.

drephpe - how big is the replica that tears around the grounds?

Dave

[Anonymous]

Hate to correct Ed, but Burlington and the Rock did not form the Fort Worth & Denver (nee Fort Worth and Denver City) under the Texas law. The FW&D was the Texas subsidiary of the Colorado & Southern formed under the Texas law, and it ran from Fort Worth northwest through Wichita Falls and Amarillo to the state line at Texline out past Dalhart in the Panhandle, with branches to Abilene, Lubbock and a few other places. C&S (FW&D) purchased the failing and incomplete (Cleburne-Mexia had been built) Trinity & Brazos Valley in 1905 with the provision that they would sell 1/2 interest to CRI&G (Chicago Rock Island and Gulf) within a year, which they did. They jointly ran over the line using trackage rights over GC&SF between Cleburne and Ft Worth and over MKT between Waxahatchie and Dallas. The line was complete to Houston in 1907, but failed in 1914 and was forced into receivership. In 1930 it was reorganized as the Burlington-Rock Island Railroad Company (B-RI), with operating authority in alternating 5 year periods, with RI taking the first turn in 1931. Dallas-Fort Worth was RI operated jointly by B-RI. This whole arrangement lasted until RI's closure in 1980, and BN bought the half interest in B-RI from the RI trustee, retaining rights over the MKT into Dallas, and BNSF got the MKT Waxahatchie line as part of the UP merger-related deals. The DFW line had been operated by MKT under a Directed Service Order associated with the bankruptcy, and Dallas Area Rapid Transit and the City of Ft Worth got it as part of the breakup (this is the TRE line), and BNSF still has rights, as does UP. By the way, the Dallas Union Terminal Co. had RI running its trackage (allegedly because it was by that time "impartial" with respect to the big RRs running through there--all the freight lines save SP went through UTCo) at the time of the bankruptcy and, like the B-RI, maintenance got so bad on many days they couldn't get ATK in and out of the remaining station tracks because of poor maintenance on the pneumatic switch machines, and of course the freight operators had the same problems on the 3 outside freight tracks.

Probably more info than you want.

By the way, (back to Ed's post) it's a fascinating study to look at all the SP/T&NO predecessors and subsidiaries that came into Houston, including the Buffalo Bayou, Brazos & Colorado (1853); Houston & Texas Central (1856); Houston East & West Texas (a former 3' gauge line); Galveston, Harrisburg & San Antonio (1870); Dayton & Goose Creek (technically in the suburbs); Texas & New Orleans (1859); and San Antonio & Aransas Pass.

And, not only is a locomotive on the Houston seal, but also a replica runs across the outside wall behind the outfield at Minute Maid park as part of the show when the Astros hit a homer.

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C

Dave,

Don't forget Junee Municipality in New South Wales has a green streamlined 38 class on their crest! A side elevation of the whole locomotive and tender!

Peter

Thanks Peter for the New South Wales angle. This is becoming an intriguing thread...[;)]

Dave

[M636C]

Dave,

Don't forget Junee Municipality in New South Wales has a green streamlined 38 class on their crest! A side elevation of the whole locomotive and tender!

Peter

[Kozzie]

Thanks everyone for your help (I've been away from the 'puter for a few days).

Dave

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Macguy,
Currently,
UP, BNSF, and KCS(TexMex) Class1 roads.

Prior to the SP/UP and Santa Fe BN mergers, it was those five, BN, Santa Fe, UP, SP and KCS, along with the Katy(MKT), the Missouri Pacific, theTexas and Mexican, (prior to KCS purchase) and the joint operation of the Rock Island and CB&Q as the Forth Worth and Denver, plus four local lines, the now gone HB&T, the Houston North Shore Railroad, GH&H and us, the PTRA..

At one time there was three passenger stations in Houston,
SP's Grand Central, torn down in the 60s, now a Amshack, the Katys station at Main street, and Union station, (now Enron Feild , then Miniute Maid Park, a baseball stadium) host to the Rock Island, Missouri Pacific, the Santa Fe and the CB&Q, plus the local street car line, the GH&H and the Houston North Shore railroad, one of, if not the last, electric freight railroad/interurbans built, (now the UP's north shore district).

I will do a little digging and see if I can come up with all the railroads that have enter the city, keep in mind that Texas had one of those odd laws that required any railroad doing business in the state to incorporate inside Texas, hence the Rock and CB&Q formed the Forth Worth and Denver, and of course, the Texas and Pacific, Texas and New Orleans....so several of the roads were formed just to operate inside Texas.

Ed

Well three Class One's that pretty good these days.

I suppose Vancouver has 3 class one's running into it as well, CP, CN and BNSF.

[kwboehm]

Bensenville, IL has a steam loco in their seal.

[Anonymous]

Montgomery county pennsylvania has a train on the county seal.

[mloik]

Here's a website with the State Seals: http://www.netstate.com/state_seals.htm

Lots of native peoples, explorers, pioneers, covered wagons, sailing ships, animals, people plowing fields, mining prowess, and agricultural bounty. I didn't look in close detail at all of them (and the resolution is not great), but I only saw trains in NV and NE, as already indicated above.

I didn't find any sites for Seals of cities (and of course there would be lots of them), but I didn't spend a lot of time looking.

[dehusman]

Nebraska.

[CShaveRR]

Here's one close to home for me: West Chicago, Illinois

http://www.westchicago.org/

[edblysard]

Macguy,
Currently,
UP, BNSF, and KCS(TexMex) Class1 roads.

Prior to the SP/UP and Santa Fe BN mergers, it was those five, BN, Santa Fe, UP, SP and KCS, along with the Katy(MKT), the Missouri Pacific, theTexas and Mexican, (prior to KCS purchase) and the joint operation of the Rock Island and CB&Q as the Forth Worth and Denver, plus four local lines, the now gone HB&T, the Houston North Shore Railroad, GH&H and us, the PTRA..

At one time there was three passenger stations in Houston,
SP's Grand Central, torn down in the 60s, now a Amshack, the Katys station at Main street, and Union station, (now Enron Feild , then Miniute Maid Park, a baseball stadium) host to the Rock Island, Missouri Pacific, the Santa Fe and the CB&Q, plus the local street car line, the GH&H and the Houston North Shore railroad, one of, if not the last, electric freight railroad/interurbans built, (now the UP's north shore district).

I will do a little digging and see if I can come up with all the railroads that have enter the city, keep in mind that Texas had one of those odd laws that required any railroad doing business in the state to incorporate inside Texas, hence the Rock and CB&Q formed the Forth Worth and Denver, and of course, the Texas and Pacific, Texas and New Orleans....so several of the roads were formed just to operate inside Texas.

Ed

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer

I don't know about cities, but the state of Nevada has a Virginia & Truckee steam loco on its State seal.

Espeefoamer, I checked out the Nevada State Seal on the Nevada State Goverment website. That train crossing the viaduct in the background, in front of the distant mountain range, is quite small in comparison to other features in the Seal. How did you know it's a Virginia and Truckee train? From other sources??

Dave

[Anonymous]

That makes at least 3, I can't imagine it's anywhere near the 18 of the hey-day's.

[Kozzie]

Macguy, from the map in the Trains Mag article about chemicals transported by rail, it showed BNSF and UP feeding in, with the PTRA - the rail company Ed works for - handling the port rail activities.
However, I don't know if other smaller railroads feed in.
Let's ask our Houstonians in the Forum, such as Ed, to fill in the picture...??

Dave

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Kozzie

I was recently having a yarn with Ed about the Houston City Crest. I noticed on the official City of Houston website that crest/seal for the city had a steam loco on it! (For a view of the Houston City seal, go to www.cityofhouston.gov then click on City Government under the About Houston tab.)

So I asked Ed about it, and he explained to me that the loco was on the seal due to the huge role the railways played in the development of the city. He said that at one point, 18 different railroads entered Houston! [:0]

So, to all you Forum Folk, does any other city "up over' have a loco on their seal/crest? [;)]

Dave

How many railways enter Houston now?

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Clevelandrocks

Palmer Mass

Clevelandrocks, I've tried a few Palmer websites, including the Palmer library, but no sign of the the City Seal - do you know of a website that shows it?

Dave