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Can somebody explain to me what is the Logistic Sceince behind putting a CSX giant intermodal facility in the middle of a cornfield in NB Ohio ?

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Posted by Norm48327 on Thursday, October 6, 2016 12:44 PM

CSX is following Wal Mart's lead of placing distribution centers where they can serve the most stores within a one day drive. Makes good sense.

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Posted by BOB WITHORN on Thursday, October 6, 2016 6:51 AM

(The role of North Baltimore in the CSX intermodal network?)

 

Reading through that link, it looks like the yard is doing exactly what CSX planned, sorting. They didn't build space for container storage so weren't planning on many trucks. It's everyone else that is judging them for not doing trucks.

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Posted by 466lex on Thursday, October 6, 2016 5:12 AM

The role of North Baltimore in the CSX intermodal network?

 

"They report.  You decide.":  http://thecourier.com/local-news/2016/09/17/how-many-regional-jobs-has-csx-railyard-created/

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Posted by samfp1943 on Wednesday, October 5, 2016 9:58 PM

CatFoodFlambe

Simply put - it's essentially the "Chicago Yard" for CSX's intermodal traffic - they do the same thing with containers and trailers that Willard does with carload freight.

  

 

 

A simple explanation might be that as a"HUB' and aggregation center for TOFC and COFC.. North Naltimore,Ohio is center to a circular distribution net that encompasses some major population centers within a single drivers day [>< a 10 hour driving time) . One could also use NB,Oh as center to a 200 mile circle, for the same rationale.   a 200mile radius put one close to a major portion od the US population in the upper midwest; a potentiallly ideal situation for a hub and spoke distribution network.

 

 


 

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Posted by samfp1943 on Tuesday, August 23, 2016 9:31 PM

[quote user="CandOforprogress2"]

Hubs can be anywhere. CSX seemed to chose this hub as there is a Junction at Delsher Ohio and Home Depot and Whirlpool has a distribution center as well as auto parts plants scattered around NW Ohio. If it were me I would locate in Columbus Ohio and rebuild the PRR Columbus- Pittsburgh connection aka Panhandle Line

*[ Fred Smith chose Memphis as his hub for Fed Ex due to good weather and low cost of labor]*

"Company headquarters later moved to Memphis, Tennessee. Memphis was chosen because of its central location within the U.S. and because Memphis International Airport was rarely closed due to bad weather. The airport was also willing to make the necessary improvements for the operation and additional hangar space was readily available.]

14 planes, 186 packages

Federal Express officially began operations on April 17, 1973, with 389 team members. That night, 14 small aircraft took off from Memphis and delivered 186 packages to 25 U.S. cities from Rochester, New York, to Miami, Florida. Though the company did not show a profit until July 1975, it soon became the premier carrier of high-priority goods in the marketplace and set the standard for the express shipping industry it established."

 

[/quote]

    FedEx started at Little Rock Ar.('70-71). The 'story' continues,  at some point they ran afoul of the Arkansas Tax Collectors;     It was, at some point,(71(?) decamped  Arkansas. Memphhis being a logical alternative to having their planes(etc.?) confiscated by the State of Ar.  For some time Arkansas airspace,necessarily, was no-fly for them, until State tax issues were resolved.  Which is why FedEx got 'started' in Memphis.      

 

 


 

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Posted by 466lex on Tuesday, August 23, 2016 8:07 PM
The eastern U.S. truckload market is short-haul.  CSX’s routes are already circuitous, compared to highway, and its average domestic length of haul is 525 miles and dropping.  CSX’s intermodal terminal costs consume 40% of line-haul revenue.  So to be competitive in nascent eastern markets, CSX decides to go “hub-and-spoke” at North Baltimore:  assuring additional line-haul circuity, slower transit time, added service uncertainty, and higher terminal cost to every move.
 
The price discount vis-a-vis truck (“Logistic Science”) to move any traffic via North Baltimore is profit-sapping. 
 
Yet, CSX Intermodal Terminals wants to replicate the mistake in North Carolina.  The wonders of transfer pricing are marvelous to behold.  When will CSXT intermodal management wake up?
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Posted by tree68 on Tuesday, August 23, 2016 7:51 PM

BaltACD
They recently started scheduled service between Atlanta and the Canadian facility.

And one of the first northbounds hit a trespasser....  Hope that's not an omen.

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Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, August 23, 2016 4:32 PM

CandOforprogress2
Hubs can be anywhere. CSX seemed to chose this hub as there is a Junction at Delsher Ohio and Home Depot and Whirlpool has a distribution center as well as auto parts plants scattered around NW Ohio. If it were me I would locate in Columbus Ohio and rebuild the PRR Columbus- Pittsburgh connection aka Panhandle Line

 Fred Smith chose Memphis as his hub for Fed Ex due to good weather and low cost of labor-

"Company headquarters later moved to Memphis, Tennessee. Memphis was chosen because of its central location within the U.S. and because Memphis International Airport was rarely closed due to bad weather. The airport was also willing to make the necessary improvements for the operation and additional hangar space was readily available.

14 planes, 186 packages

Federal Express officially began operations on April 17, 1973, with 389 team members. That night, 14 small aircraft took off from Memphis and delivered 186 packages to 25 U.S. cities from Rochester, New York, to Miami, Florida. Though the company did not show a profit until July 1975, it soon became the premier carrier of high-priority goods in the marketplace and set the standard for the express shipping industry it established."

Columbus is an 'out of the way' location on the CSX network and not convient to any of the markets being served.  With CSX locating new terminals in such locations as near Montreal, QB, McKees Rocks, PA and Rocky Mount, NC in addition to the existing network they are actively seeking new business opportunities.  They recently started scheduled service between Atlanta and the Canadian facility.

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Posted by CandOforprogress2 on Tuesday, August 23, 2016 1:16 PM

"Network intermodal battles trucks - European railways speed intermodal service with hump yards by Kraft, Edwin R. Chip, from Trains, January 2005p. 28 [ europe  france  intermodal  yard ]" 

However europe uses single stack cars and most TTX cars have "do not hump" on the side. (As far as using the spoon method to classify cars that would be a diffrent matter entirely) Seems here that CSX is using the fork method by picking up whole containers and tranfering them to the next dish.

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Posted by CandOforprogress2 on Tuesday, August 23, 2016 10:17 AM

Hubs can be anywhere. CSX seemed to chose this hub as there is a Junction at Delsher Ohio and Home Depot and Whirlpool has a distribution center as well as auto parts plants scattered around NW Ohio. If it were me I would locate in Columbus Ohio and rebuild the PRR Columbus- Pittsburgh connection aka Panhandle Line

 Fred Smith chose Memphis as his hub for Fed Ex due to good weather and low cost of labor-

"Company headquarters later moved to Memphis, Tennessee. Memphis was chosen because of its central location within the U.S. and because Memphis International Airport was rarely closed due to bad weather. The airport was also willing to make the necessary improvements for the operation and additional hangar space was readily available.

14 planes, 186 packages

Federal Express officially began operations on April 17, 1973, with 389 team members. That night, 14 small aircraft took off from Memphis and delivered 186 packages to 25 U.S. cities from Rochester, New York, to Miami, Florida. Though the company did not show a profit until July 1975, it soon became the premier carrier of high-priority goods in the marketplace and set the standard for the express shipping industry it established."

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Posted by tree68 on Monday, August 22, 2016 9:12 PM

CMStPnP
Now Dallas has partially reneged and reopened it's downtown airport with additional noise that Ft Worth might also do the same.

One might wonder if DFW and the downtown airports might take on roles similar to Dulles and Reagan (National) in D.C.

I was going to point out what others already have - hubs aren't always in the major metroplexes - and at least partly for the same reason CSX built in the middle of a corn field.  I'm sure US Air's hubs at Charlotte and Pittsburg were cheaper to operate than they would have been in larger cities.

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Posted by Ulrich on Monday, August 22, 2016 9:03 PM

If you look at the map of the CSX system and where the larger population centers are it all starts to make sense. And way out in the country does make sense from a cost standpoint.. way cheaper than prime real estate that is close to a large city. 

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Posted by samfp1943 on Monday, August 22, 2016 8:43 PM

In response to your 'title' question... Are you asking about the "Science" of putting the North Baltimore [Oh.} facility out in what was pretty much farmland?

Or are you trying to make some "Sense" of the Why it was put out in open ground in Northwestern Ohio?

IIRC the original numbers for the investment that CSX swas considering was somewhere between $150 and $200 million dollars(?).  In order to make that kind of long term investment; the railroad would have to consider their ability to make a sound return on it, and it would have to be at a point on their system where its location would make sense. The science and methodology of the Why and Where, would have to be made after much study. 

  One place to start would be a location within a given radius of large population centers; then land prices would be another large item of study... The management would pick a location that would work for their purposes (freight aggregation?) and authorize the expenditure....

 

 


 

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Posted by CMStPnP on Monday, August 22, 2016 7:56 PM

Just one minor revision, DFW was built at the very edge of the Dallas and Fort Worth Metro areas in the countryside.    When I first came down here in 1991 for a training class it was in the middle of nowhere.    It is becomming built up now though but has enough runways to be competing for a while where it is.    Part of the agreement for Ft Worth and Dallas to shift their flights from the downtown airports was the new DFW would be built exactly halfway between the two downtown areas......and so it was.     Now Dallas has partially reneged and reopened it's downtown airport with additional noise that Ft Worth might also do the same.   I still think DFW will be here in the same location for another 2 generations.    Still plenty of land to expand.

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, August 22, 2016 6:42 PM

schlimm
 
BaltACD
 
schlimm
Seems quite complicated.  

It is only complicated to minds that can't comprehend it.

Gee, you really must enjoy insults.  You never miss an opportunity to make personal attacks.  Sure, I question the assumptions and conventional wisdom expressed by some on here.  Often they are right.  But frequently they cannot give a coherent explanation or back up contentions with facts. It's known as an exchange of ideas which does not require ad hominem attacks as you do.

n012944, unlike you, gave a lot of reasoned, relevant information that explains the purpose of the CSX facility. 

Your question was after n012944's ... so?

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Posted by schlimm on Monday, August 22, 2016 5:51 PM

BaltACD

 

 
schlimm
Seems quite complicated. 

 

It is only complicated to minds that can't comprehend it.

 

Gee, you really must enjoy insults.  You never miss an opportunity to make personal attacks.  Sure, I question the assumptions and conventional wisdom expressed by some on here.  Often they are right.  But frequently they cannot give a coherent explanation or back up contentions with facts. It's known as an exchange of ideas which does not require ad hominem attacks as you do.

n012944, unlike you, gave a lot of reasoned, relevant information that explains the purpose of the CSX facility.  

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, August 22, 2016 5:01 PM

schlimm
Seems quite complicated. 

It is only complicated to minds that can't comprehend it.

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Posted by schlimm on Monday, August 22, 2016 4:36 PM

Seems quite complicated.  O'Hare is #4 in the US in airfreight, much of it international and with a high value: In Chicago, rail value is $533/ton, truck = $1297/ton and airfreight = $80,194/ton in 2014 (from CMAP).

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Posted by n012944 on Monday, August 22, 2016 4:09 PM

schlimm

You miss the points.  When the hub and spoke era started, Hartsfield, O'Hare and DFW were already in the heart of metro areas.  Heck, even when built, they were not far from the downtowns of the core cities.  The 'hub' the CSX built is 120 miles to Cleveland, 109 to Columbus.  But...it's only 37 miles to that huge metroplolis called Toledo.

Of course if you look at the air freight hub and spoke you get different picture.  UPS has hubs in huge cities like Louisville and Rockford, Kitty Hawk was located the massive metro of Fort Wayne, and Burlington Air Express is in Toledo.  Fedex is a little better, using Memphis and Indy.

 

schlimm
The point is to locate facilities reasonably close to customers.  By way of contrast in the railroad world, compare UPRR's various Global facilities with CSX's choice.  Global II (Proviso) is in the heart of the metro area, about 16 miles from the Loop.  The newer Global III and IV are 80 miles and 45 miles from the Loop, though much closer to most of the industrial parks and warehouse areas.
 

What is your point?  You conveniently leave out the fact that CSX has two facilities in the Chicago area, 59th St, located in the city proper, and Bedford Park, located next to Midway.  Those facilities serve the same function as UP's global ramps, the NW Ohio ramp is for a whole different purpose.

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Posted by JoeKoh on Monday, August 22, 2016 2:02 PM

Also with the proximitiy of I-75 it makes it a plus.

stay safe

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Posted by Norm48327 on Monday, August 22, 2016 12:43 PM

I see North Baltimore as more of a sorting facility than a destination. Sure, some containers will be trucked to nearby cities but the rest will be sorted by destination and sent on their way.

Norm


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Posted by Norm48327 on Monday, August 22, 2016 12:40 PM

BaltACD
Name an airport that was originally built 'downtown'. None were, they were all built in relatively uninhabited areas because of the need for cheap land to build them upon, as well as the potential to acquire more land economically as the runway requirements for planes increased over time. If the runway requirements for future planes greatly exceed those of today, there will be a new round of airport construction further out in the boonies as most airports today have the same constriction of development building up around them as the railroads have in metropolitan areas. Transportation hubs breed development, development constricts the original hubs causing the creation of new hubs.

The people who planned Denver International appear to have done their homework. Many hub airports have been surrounded by development that limits future options. Denver has 54.2 square miles of land they can expand on and prevent development from encroaching on their space.

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Posted by greyhounds on Monday, August 22, 2016 12:25 PM

CSX's N. Baltimore facility is a good idea.  But not all good ideas work.  It takes a lot of commitment and hard work to make ideas work in reality.  I hope CSX has those requirements in spades.

It's all about the need for aggregation, the Achilles Heel of rail transportation in its competition with trucking.

A truckload over the road carrier can take an aggregation of 30,000 - 46,000 pounds of freight and just go.  A railroad has to further aggregate such shipments in to economical trainload lots before movement.  This causes delay to the rail movement.  Shipments must wait while other loads arrive at the termial until an economical size production unit is assembled.  (production unit = freight train). 

N. Baltimore, OH is a concept designed to minimize this inherent disadvantage of rail transportation.  It's not so much a terminal as it is a classification yard for containers.  (It can, and will, also function as a terminal.)

The best example I know of was the CSX plan to operate an intermodal service between Louisville, KY and N. Baltimore.  Louisville does have freight to haul.  It produces appliances, whiskey, and cigarettes among other things.  But there is not enough volume to support a dedicated IM train to any one specific destination.  That's because it's not possible to aggregate the loads in a timely fashion to any one specific destination.  (The Achilles Heel strikes again.)

Going through N. Baltimore CSX will be able to aggregate freight out of Louisville to several destinations instead of one.  And do so in a timely manner.  At N. Baltimore the Louisville origins will be placed on trains going to destinations located from Montreal to Baltimore.

That's the basis for N. Baltimore.   And it's a reasonable, thought out, good idea.

 

 

 

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Posted by schlimm on Monday, August 22, 2016 11:08 AM

You miss the points.  When the hub and spoke era started, Hartsfield, O'Hare and DFW were already in the heart of metro areas.  Heck, even when built, they were not far from the downtowns of the core cities.  The 'hub' the CSX built is 120 miles to Cleveland, 109 to Columbus.  But...it's only 37 miles to that huge metroplolis called Toledo.

Midway started as an airport in 1923 and by 1931 claimed to be the world's busiest.  It's 8 miles from the loop, really far.   And O'Hare is way, way out - 17 miles!!

The point is to locate facilities reasonably close to customers.  By way of contrast in the railroad world, compare UPRR's various Global facilities with CSX's choice.  Global II (Proviso) is in the heart of the metro area, about 16 miles from the Loop.  The newer Global III and IV are 80 miles and 45 miles from the Loop, though much closer to most of the industrial parks and warehouse areas.

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Posted by ChuckCobleigh on Monday, August 22, 2016 10:42 AM

BaltACD
Name an airport that was originally built 'downtown'. 

Lindbergh Field (SAN) was built pretty close to downtown San Diego (couple of miles).

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, August 22, 2016 10:25 AM

CSSHEGEWISCH
Deggesty

And, they built the big airports somewhat close to where the people who would use them live and/or work?

I'm not sure about other cities, but when Chicago Municipal Airport was opened, the only thing that was near it was Clearing Yard.  When O'Hare Field was opened, it was also at the edge of the built-up areas and not particularly close to anything.

Name an airport that was originally built 'downtown'.  None were, they were all built in relatively uninhabited areas because of the need for cheap land to build them upon, as well as the potential to acquire more land economically as the runway requirements for planes increased over time. 

If the runway requirements for future planes greatly exceed those of today, there will be a new round of airport construction further out in the boonies as most airports today have the same constriction of development building up around them as the railroads have in metropolitan areas.  Transportation hubs breed development, development constricts the original hubs causing the creation of new hubs.

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Posted by Buslist on Monday, August 22, 2016 10:21 AM

CSSHEGEWISCH

 

 
Deggesty

And, they built the big airports somewhat close to where the people who would use them live and/or work?

 

 

I'm not sure about other cities, but when Chicago Municipal Airport was opened, the only thing that was near it was Clearing Yard.  When O'Hare Field was opened, it was also at the edge of the built-up areas and not particularly close to anything.

 

'cause that's where the land was available! Heck I cauld bicycle to Midway from the inner city.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, August 22, 2016 10:05 AM

Deggesty

And, they built the big airports somewhat close to where the people who would use them live and/or work?

I'm not sure about other cities, but when Chicago Municipal Airport was opened, the only thing that was near it was Clearing Yard.  When O'Hare Field was opened, it was also at the edge of the built-up areas and not particularly close to anything.

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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, August 22, 2016 10:02 AM

And, they built the big airports somewhat close to where the people who would use them live and/or work?

 

Johnny

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