schlimmShould we assume you meant to say duplicated or redundant branch lines, rather than lines that are deceitful?
Yeah thats what I meant.
Los Angeles Rams Guy- "agree that an end-to-end merger could have been very beneficial to the MILW. However, I would have advocated an EL - MILW combination (and possibly throwing in Grand Trunk as well as they're the one who SHOULD have been able to acquire the MILW "core" system). That would have meshed both road's strength in intermodal traffic and it could have been an intermodal powerhouse"
"PRR should have been put with both UP & CNW (aka the U.S. Highway 30 merger)"
Those are great ideas as well. GT/ MIlw definitely should have been.
UP/ C&NW/PRR -Absolutely. Can you imagine. It could end up something like that in the end yet.
CMStPnP Well in my view, the Pacific Coast Extension was a wise move but unlike the NP and GN. Milwaukee seemed to take a "spare no expense" approach to construction. That is instead of first putting in sharp curves and steep grades to fix later, Milwaukee opted to do everything right from the beginning
Well in my view, the Pacific Coast Extension was a wise move but unlike the NP and GN. Milwaukee seemed to take a "spare no expense" approach to construction. That is instead of first putting in sharp curves and steep grades to fix later, Milwaukee opted to do everything right from the beginning
Not necessarily the reason. Construction techniques and equipment and technology improve over the years. The Milwaukee Road Pacific Extention was completed 26 years after the NP and 16 after the GN. The Milwaukee had access to better engineering resources a generation later than when the NP was built. The Milwaukee benefited greatly by shipping materials for its construction on the already-built NP. And while the GN and NP did invest and rebuild most sections of their original main line route, the Milwaukee did little. They did change the 2 percent westward grade at Bruno, MT to 1.4, but not a lot else. They never put in ABS on their main line between Sorrento (Plummer) and Marengo nor did they have failed equipment detectors on their Pacific Extension right up to the time of its demise. And CTC with power switches? Almost none.
CMStPnP In my view, after the last reorganization they could have kept and should have kept the Pacific Coast Extension and shed the Electrification, shed the duplicitous branch lines everywhere and if I were the Trustee I would have given it one more chance at survival as a Chicago to Seattle/Tacoma system. I believe they had some sort of rights into Portland, OR even to connect to SP as a condition of the BN merger.
In my view, after the last reorganization they could have kept and should have kept the Pacific Coast Extension and shed the Electrification, shed the duplicitous branch lines everywhere and if I were the Trustee I would have given it one more chance at survival as a Chicago to Seattle/Tacoma system. I believe they had some sort of rights into Portland, OR even to connect to SP as a condition of the BN merger.
The did obtain trackage rights to Portland on BN from Chehalis, WA as a condition of the BN merger. But this route was circuitous and featured a grade (between Tacoma and Chehalis on a Milwaukee Road branch line) of over 3 percent for trains going to Portland.
Even without the branch lines (which often produced more online traffic than the main line), the Pacific Extension was the high-cost route between the Pacific Northwest and Midwest, hence the reason for its demise:
http://www.trainweb.org/milwaukeemyths/
Mark Meyer
Miningman The Pacific Coast Extension was a tremendous asset .. How about a mega merger of Milwaukee with The Pennsy, Southern Pacific and Rock Island! An iron lariat on top of and through the West with some serious long haul to Eastern markets. Tell everyone to just stuff it and do it.
The Pacific Coast Extension was a tremendous asset .. How about a mega merger of Milwaukee with The Pennsy, Southern Pacific and Rock Island! An iron lariat on top of and through the West with some serious long haul to Eastern markets. Tell everyone to just stuff it and do it.
I agree that an end-to-end merger could have been very beneficial to the MILW. However, I would have advocated an EL - MILW combination (and possibly throwing in Grand Trunk as well as they're the one who SHOULD have been able to acquire the MILW "core" system). That would have meshed both road's strength in intermodal traffic and it could have been an intermodal powerhouse.
PRR should have been put with both UP & CNW (aka the U.S. Highway 30 merger).
The Milwaukee standards for cat height above rail was 24 feet where not limited by other considerations (e.g. tunnels). Minimum height in the days of tri-level auto racks was 19 feet, the Milwaukee lowered the floor of a few tunnels to get that clearance.
24 feet will clear double stacks, 19 feet won't.
Very nice, thank you for sharing. One cannot tell from just a movie but, does this really look like a railroad that needed to go away?
That said, looking at the stretch of the Joes' pantograph, was the cat high enough then to clear today's domestic double stacks?
Editor Emeritus, This Week at Amtrak
CMStPnPLeading to a lot of duplicitous lines in the Midwest and even some places in the Pacific Northwest. These also drained money. In my view, after the last reorganization they could have kept and should have kept the Pacific Coast Extension and shed the Electrification, shed the duplicitous branch lines everywhere
Should we assume you meant to say duplicated or redundant branch lines, rather than lines that are deceitful?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Well in my view, the Pacific Coast Extension was a wise move but unlike the NP and GN. Milwaukee seemed to take a "spare no expense" approach to construction. That is instead of first putting in sharp curves and steep grades to fix later, Milwaukee opted to do everything right from the beginning and frosted the cake with the expensive electrification. Now if you look at their balance sheet and the cost estimate overuns.........that approach meant at least $700-800 million in debt.....escalating to close to over $1 Billion with several refinancings and Bankruptcies. Milwaukee had a lot of Bankruptcies and each time they trimmed the debt a little bit more but then each subsequent bankruptcy the debt was a LOT more then at the end of the former bankruptcy. Meaning a lot of years in the last century the railroad was not earning break even costs of keeping it running.
Another problem beyond the PCE was the merger approach of the Milwaukee. It would merge a line into the larger system and instead of shedding all the ancillary lines of the new merger partner it did not want, it attempted to keep most in operation. Leading to a lot of duplicitous lines in the Midwest and even some places in the Pacific Northwest. These also drained money.
I think they were sold too fast to the Soo Line.
Re: Milw, Pennsy, SP and RI; All the dynamics would have changed considerably avoiding many future problems. Perhaps at some point, maybe around the oil embargo, or sooner, or after, the entire system could have gone under wires. Now you have a railroad that is way way ahead of the curve with the cleanest, least expensive and longest haulage in the nation.
Let's see, MILW and RI were the weak sisters of the granger roads, PRR was hardly an innovator and was coasting on its reputation and SP couldn't carry the financial burden imposed by the other three.
BaltACD MILW in an earlier day
MILW in an earlier day
Yes when I was growing up, they occupied most of the Menominee River Valley in Milwaukee with shops and freight yards. They had two full circle roundhouses and side tracks. Not all the round house tracks were covered by structure when I was living but I have always wondered about earlier. Milwaukee was the main warehouse point for the whole Milwaukee Road railroad they had a creosote tie plant with ties stacked up next to it, Surplus wheel and truck sets, section rails and panel track, Frieght car and Passenger car shops. They could build anything from scratch or supply anything and you could look down from the freeway and see as you passed in progress all the railroad related stuff they were involved in. Things tapered off after the 1960's and employment probably started to initially fall after World War II.
They held onto the skytop obs until years after Amtrak, they could not sell them because they needed to be turned at each end of their run. At one point I think in 1973, Milwaukee shop forces attempted to scrap one by torching it first.............next day, front page picture on the Milwaukee Journal and instant public relations disaster for the railroad. After that they stuck them indoors somewhere out of sight and slowly sold them off. The Cedar Rapids they gave away to the Designer family of the Skytop Obs. They hung onto to it for a while before they sold it.....thats why it is in such good condition. Milwaukee actually had I think four seperate frieght yards combined as one in the Menonminee valley. Muskego I think was originally designed as the departure yard. They had three recieving yards from what I remember as a kid and two entries into the yard complex from the West.......one from their airline cutoff which originated from their mainline in Elm Grove, WI...............the other from the mainline after it was in the valley already at cutoff tower. The Elm Grove, Wi branch (so called airline) curved through the heavy industrial areas of West Allis, through State Fair park and joined the yard complex South of the current Stadium. They had a small recieving yard for that line. One for the beer line at North Milwaukee and one for traffic from the Twin Cities mainline. For all three recieving yards I am guessing they would use Muskego to assemble for departure to Bensenville, IL but I am only guessing based on the layout of the yards. Their passenger coach and express yard was located where the Post Office and Amtrak station is now. After they switched passenger stations they moved the coach yard further West and shrunk it considerably same with the Express. The small express loading and unloading wharehouse is where the expanded depot parking lot is now. They had a siding with an express warehouse that could hold up to three baggage cars. in a single row. All of it gone now. Soo Line transferred title at merger to most of the Menonominee shops complex to the Chicago-Milwaukee Corporation (Milwaukee Road's real estate arm)...........they (Chicago - Milwaukee Corporation) survived to dispose of or develope remaining valuable Milwaukee Road land assets into the 1980's or 1990's until they exited the business or were sold off as well. Soo Line and CP not left with much of anything other than the bare bones infrastructure they have now.....and even Muskego Yard is considered surplus, though it is still about 33-40% utilized.
The original Locotrol Masters were GP40s 2046, 2057 - 2060.
The original Locotrol Remotes were SD45s 4005 - 4009.
jeffhergert BaltACD Where a single 'Little Joe' is coupled to a diesel engine consist - Is the Little Joe a manned double heading helper or does the Little Joe have MU capability to also control the diesel engine consist and therefore is the only head end crew? The Little Joes were equipped with a mini diesel controller that could be operated separately or with a mechanical linkage to the electric controller. It was developed in-house by a retired MILW electrical engineer. I've never seen a picture of the setup, only read descriptions of it. The Joes had to lead, diesels weren't equipped to lead a electric. The MILW used Locotrol, but I thought it was only on certain SD40-2 engines. I know when they were renumbered into the 100-200 series, the locotrol engines were numbered in the 10-20 series for quick identification. They started receiving locotrol equipped engines about 1973. Possible the engines shown in the films were original test beds/demonstrators for locotrol equipment. Somewhere (it's still packed away after moving over a year ago) I have a MILW air brake and train handling book from about 1976/77. It no longer has anything about the electric locomotives, but does have a section on operating the locotrol equipment. Jeff
BaltACD Where a single 'Little Joe' is coupled to a diesel engine consist - Is the Little Joe a manned double heading helper or does the Little Joe have MU capability to also control the diesel engine consist and therefore is the only head end crew?
Where a single 'Little Joe' is coupled to a diesel engine consist - Is the Little Joe a manned double heading helper or does the Little Joe have MU capability to also control the diesel engine consist and therefore is the only head end crew?
The Little Joes were equipped with a mini diesel controller that could be operated separately or with a mechanical linkage to the electric controller. It was developed in-house by a retired MILW electrical engineer. I've never seen a picture of the setup, only read descriptions of it. The Joes had to lead, diesels weren't equipped to lead a electric.
The MILW used Locotrol, but I thought it was only on certain SD40-2 engines. I know when they were renumbered into the 100-200 series, the locotrol engines were numbered in the 10-20 series for quick identification. They started receiving locotrol equipped engines about 1973. Possible the engines shown in the films were original test beds/demonstrators for locotrol equipment.
Somewhere (it's still packed away after moving over a year ago) I have a MILW air brake and train handling book from about 1976/77. It no longer has anything about the electric locomotives, but does have a section on operating the locotrol equipment.
Jeff
Last night I was reading the June or July 1970 issue of Railroad Magazine. There was an article about the MILW electrics and it said they started using Locotrol helpers "the preceding summer." My 1973 reference was to the SD40-2 equipped units, so they must have had some other engines equipped previously.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Hey found some more, these are actually interviews with former employees.
Even better info on the Milwaukee Road Pacific Extension if you have time to watch some of these interviews of former Milwaukee Road employees. They have good detail in some of them about Milwaukee Operations. Mostly the operations are in state of Washington. Some of these guys have relatives that worked on the original construction of the Pacific Extension.....also interesting.
Part 1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAwT97yFT84
Part 2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMEBNlh8co0
Part 3 (Dale Porter - Conductor, biggest check $4500 for two weeks work, that was a lot of money back then):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tc3xAEKi9B0
Part 4:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80K8s_P_TGA
Part 5:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IN1r-Sl50Z8
Part 6 (Another guy whose grandfather came out in 1908 to construct the rr):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDojTj_H8Bk
Part 7:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eP74818d8ao
Part 8 (last one):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvMCB66jJqQ
There are more interviews on youtube for the 2012 Luncheon, all of them are interesting to listen to.
jeffhergert"Pelicans" were the original box cabs as noted. I have a couple books on the MILW's electrification and I don't think anyone knows for sure where the nickname came from.
They were apparently also called "black cows" and "mules," according to one site.
A poster on trainorders.com offered this: " A string of 3 or 4 box motors, notched out too fast from a dead stop, could knock a substation off line. They could "bite off more than they could chew" -- hence the name "Pelican".
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
When they were originally put up for sale, after the US embargoed certain things to Soviet Russia, GE quoted a price to the MILW for all 20. By the time the MILW decided to buy them, some were already sold as mentioned. The MILW bought the remaining ones, I think at the same price originally qouted for all of them.
"Pelicans" were the original box cabs as noted. I have a couple books on the MILW's electrification and I don't think anyone knows for sure where the nickname came from.
I must admit, I didn't have much interest in MILW electrics until I read Richard Steinheimer's book, "The Electric Way across the Mountains."
Thank You Mr. CSSHEGEWISCH!!! Re Pelican Locomotives.
Another obscure fact cleared up, a question I have had in the back of my mind for 40-odd years.
Thank You to all the other Experts on these Forums, and
Thank You for the Internet for giving us a quick and easy medium to transmit data.
A Good Day has begun!!!!!
BTW.
Look what else might still exist in South America!?http://alcoworld.railfan.net/cp600.htmhttp://alcoworld.railfan.net/cp600-6.jpghttp://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/9/9/8/2998.1400198349.jpg
D&H 20??
I believe that the original boxcabs on MILW were nicknamed "Pelicans", don't know why. As long the Joes on MILW and South Shore have mentioned, also remember that five Little Joes went to Brazil on the Paulista. I believe that they lasted in service there until the 1990's.
NDGAn American Rail Fan I met down there said these were called 'Pelicans', is this true?? http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-uD_2_GqeThw/VW-TfgrxyHI/AAAAAAABOQc/hv0n-72Kfu0/s1600/Milwaukee%2BRoad%2BRailroad%2BGE%2BElectric%2BTrain%2B1971.JPGYard Goat.http://www.american-rails.com/images/ECMILWDeerLodgeBP.jpgA snowy day on the CSS&SB.http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/6/0/2/5602.1226409827.jpgThank You.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-uD_2_GqeThw/VW-TfgrxyHI/AAAAAAABOQc/hv0n-72Kfu0/s1600/Milwaukee%2BRoad%2BRailroad%2BGE%2BElectric%2BTrain%2B1971.JPGYard Goat.http://www.american-rails.com/images/ECMILWDeerLodgeBP.jpgA snowy day on the CSS&SB.http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/6/0/2/5602.1226409827.jpgThank You.
Have never, ever heard to them referred to as anything but Little Joes - on the MILW and the CSSB.
NDGAn American Rail Fan I met down there said these were called 'Pelicans', is this true??
I don't know if this question was directed specifically to me (this being the Pelican State), but I've never heard of any locomotive being called "Pelican", and I don't know of any electrics ever being used around here. Of course, I'm not that knowledgeable about local RR history, and also, they may have been called that somewhere else.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Thanks, Miningman.
An American Rail Fan I met down there said these were called 'Pelicans', is this true??http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-uD_2_GqeThw/VW-TfgrxyHI/AAAAAAABOQc/hv0n-72Kfu0/s1600/Milwaukee%2BRoad%2BRailroad%2BGE%2BElectric%2BTrain%2B1971.JPGYard Goat.http://www.american-rails.com/images/ECMILWDeerLodgeBP.jpgA snowy day on the CSS&SB.http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/6/0/2/5602.1226409827.jpgThank You.
Paul of Covington- They were named little Joe's because they were actually originally built for the Soviet Union in 1945, whose leader and one time WWII ally, was "Little Joe Stalin". The Cold War broke out just as the order was completed by GE and they could no longer be sold to Russia. Ordinally the were built to Russia's 5 ft gauge.
Why were they called Little Joe's? Compared to the diesels, they don't look at all little to me.
CMStPnP- Terrific clips, especially coming from a Super 8. Really enjoyed these scenes. The locomotives in each scene are all really clean and reflect an employee pride I'm sure. As mentioned the speed at which those big freights are going is quite surprising considering all that is written about the track conditions at that time.
Hard to believe what was to come.
I think Jeff is correct....
According to the Milwaukee Road Historical Association and their publications, the Little Joes MU with diesels it was one of the achievements of the Milwaukee Road Engineering Department that developed that. Now me being ignorant of almost all railroad technology I have no idea why that was an achievement. Are Electric locomotives incompatible in some way?
They also pionered "regenerative braking" or returning kinetic braking energy back to the wires as electricity.
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