At about 10 AM today, near Trinidad, Colorado, the AMTRAK train [S.W, Chief ] going from Chicago to Los Angeles struck a van that had gotten on the tracks, and five people were killed and one child was apparently taken to a hospital with serious injuries. There were no reported injuries on the train that had some 286 people onboard.
See linked article @ http://www.aol.com/article/2016/06/26/five-killed-in-colorado-amtrak-train-car-crash/21419384/
My point in posting this is to ask, Are these incidents happening so often that we do not seem to notice unless there is a number of seriously injured or killed as a result of the collision between the train and a vehicle?
Thank goodness that the collision did not derail the train, causing potentially more casualties.But still, five of six people in the van did not survive [Included in the casualties was also the van's driver.]
Are we as a community becoming 'numbed' to these events ? I am sure that the train's crew will not forget; neither this day, nor the highway-rail grade crossing incursion that resulted in the collision that took five lives'.
The better question would be have drivers become so numb to these incidents that they have absolutely no fear of ignoring and avoiding the signs and devices that protect grade level crossings.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
A very large segment of our society teaches their offspring that rules, signs, and automated devices are advisory in nature and the decision to obey them is up to individuals. Look around, you see it every day. There is a child about 9 or 10 years old in my neighborhood who tears around the streets on an off road motorcycle. Children at McDonalds playland wear their shoes, climb on the outside of the devices, and climb up the tube slides right next to the sign prohibiting all those things, while their parents sit at a table a few feet away ignoring them. Parents take their child out of school for the first day of hunting season or to go on vacation.
Then those same parents look for someone else to blame when their child falls and breaks some body part at playland, gets hit by a car riding their go cart or dirt bike in the street, gets attacked by an alligator while swimming in a body of water that is clearly signed "no swimming", or their car gets hit by a train when they ignored the warning device.
When one looks at the situation broadly, years ago railroads employed a good percentage of the American population. But, now, few work for railroads anymore, and the railroads are trying to eliminate many that remain. We as railroaders and railfans are so conscious of trains that to be in a collision with a train is as often as a blue moon. But, apparently society as a whole is losing their sense of trains (because nobody basically works for railroads anymore). Add to that unawareness anxieties of life, and it is not surprising collision occur, even with advances to rail technology.
But, one of the photos for the below news source suggest only crossbucks were present. (See center small photo.)
http://www.kob.com/new-mexico-news/report-train-hits-car-near-trinidad-five-killed/4181222/#.V3DI9Gfn-M8
Again, since few are employed by railroads anymore, the public simply isn’t conscience of trains. We always look for trains. It is hard to believe most people don’t look for trains! And that unawareness kills so many of them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
Are Grade Crossing signals are still too expensive?
Even after all the grade crossing and signaling companies have been consolidated, the signals are still cost prohibitive?
Why can they not come up with a low cost signal option for these remote grade crossings?
Watch my videos on-line at https://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewNeilFalconer
Once upon a time, the vertical post that held up the crossbuck was lettered, "STOP LOOK LISTEN." Is that still true?
In this metropolitan area we have, "Ran the red light," and, "Hit pedestrian in marked crosswalk," accidents on a daily basis. The 5-O'Clock traffic report always has several accident cleanups to screen, ranging from fender benders to total devastation. I take it for granted that most of my fellow four-wheeler pilots are inattentive, impaired or brain dead - and drive defensively in hopes of avoiding their accidents.
Brother Falconer, if you can come up with a crossing signal that is cheap to install, self-maintaining and vandalproof I'm sure that people will beat a path to your door. Unfortunately, present-day technology is none of the above.
Chuck
Watch to left of screen.Pickup truck stops, right turn signal flashing with crossing lights activated as train approaches from left.Gate comes down behind truck as road straight thru traffic signals go to green to allow traffic to clear tracks, then cycles back to red.Looks as if traffic light on left-right road then goes to green and truck obeys that green???Train hits truck.http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a3e_1466903833There are many, many more motor vehicles on the roads than there were, let say, in the 1950s, so there will be more accidents, a given.BUT!!!!One wonders if some drivers may not be aware of the forces involved having never worked around trains, nor have relatives who do. No longer Safety First at home over dinner and going down with Dad to see the Roundhouse on Sunday.As a Safety-First? Employee I came VERY close to getting killed two or three times by NOT thinking at all where I was going, forgot all about the approaching rolling stock, engine, etc. and stepped inside the ballast edge without looking. I mean CLOSE, later leg-shaking CLOSE! The grab iron brushed my sleeve.Trains are in no one's life 'til one appears out a side window @ 50 mph. 18000 Tons.Some folk have every toy in the world at their fingertips as in on-board flat screens, text and tablets and mirror to mirror sound which could drown out a 567 INSIDE a B Unit.Even cameras for backing up, and Radar, a good idea!Maybe they will put a back up camera on FRED, someday??Life appears to be a video game where the Gamers get points to maim and kill, then go to eat supper.Why 'Drive' when there is so much ELSE to do??More and more vehicles are 'Automatic' and their drivers would not be caught dead shifting, as it would take their hand off their devices. ( Whats a 3-on-the-column shift and a clutch??? All we had? )When they are digitizing me out their window for yelling at them when texting thru a red or a crosswalk, there are no hands on the wheel.Driving as a skill in some ways has gone to riding as a pleasure surrounded by all sorts of comforts.The other extreme is the churl with a Black lifted Diesel truck with more chips than McDonalds who drives as if he is outrunning a Lahare, or his Ex's Lawyer, or a Repo man.No cure, is there?Personally, I avoid driving, now, as I am afraid and eyesight going, esp @ nite.I should have been killed in two vehicle wrecks, one my fault, the other, a head-on that reduced both trucks to SCRAP, no fire, thankfully. The 'other' driver was 19, and had not a clew as to anything re 'motoring', just speed and FUN!Safety First means something everywhere, not just on the job.Hope he learned. I did.Two teens killed there in same location in March, Ambulance going out several times a day. Tow trucks, too.Later, the hearse makes a turn too, across the tracks to the other side of town, to the graveyard and sometimes to the building w/ a chimney and a gas meter.When one gets old, like me, we can rant away, and go on Forums, too. Best of both worlds??Maybe some might learn from MY mistakes?Setting the Independent AND the Automatic, lite engine, is a Good idea.Once I got off an Engine ( Steam ) and just brushed the Independent with my leg. The handle moved, I guess, and soon the Engine was passing me on the way to the shop wall.I won!
The thing is you can't fix stupid. Gates,flashing red lights or flagman some Darwin award winner will ignore them and get hit.
At crossings with crossbuck only what happen to common sense Stop, Look,Listen and Live?
I know that's for the other drivers!
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
NDGPickup truck stops, right turn signal flashing with crossing lights activated as train approaches from left. Gate comes down behind truck as road straight thru traffic signals go to green to allow traffic to clear tracks, then cycles back to red. Looks as if traffic light on left-right road then goes to green and truck obeys that green???
I normally try to stay out of these 'idot'-type wreck and trespasser threads, but I wanted to comment on how nice it is to see common sense and a bit of understanding in a post or discussion of that kind.
I'd like to see a diagram of this crossing, or a view of where the gate for the turning lane the truck was in is located. He is certainly well ahead of it where we see him. Be interesting to see if the accident investigation checks to see if he had modified the exhaust or had the stereo on ... to be where he was, waiting on red, he might never have heard the crossing protection go on, and might have confused the various reds.
I do agree with the 'expect a train on any track at any time' idea, and try to abide by staying clear of any track in a vehicle just as I would when on foot. But sometimes confusion can set in.
When I was about six, my mother was driving on a road in Tenafly, NJ that ran parallel to the old EL Northern Branch. In those days the line still had a couple of peddler freights a day, and we were running alongside an RS-3 with a few freight cars, going reasonably quickly for that branch. We came to a stop sign ... and my mother promptly turned after stopping and went right across the tracks, giving me a very good view of the lower half of an RS3. My child's thought was 'what an interesting view! why haven't I seen this more often!' -- then my mother slammed on the brakes and came to a stop, starting to sweat, as she realized what she had just done.
Not that she wasn't a safe and conscientious driver ... all the rest of the time I saw her driving. It's that one moment that can get you, and in my opinion much more needs to be done to help drivers form the 'right' default reactions when around railroads.
One additional factor applies to this incident (and to any others which may occur under similar circumstances).
There are only TWO (2) trains each day at this location, the westbound Amtrak #3 and the eastbound Amtrak #4. There are no other trains operated by BNSF on this line as has been discussed on threads concerning the Raton Pass route. Therefore drivers have become unconcerned as they approach these crossings, especially if the Amtrak trains are substantially off their scheduled times.
https://www.gofundme.com/2bedqes
wanswheel https://www.gofundme.com/2bedqes
Tragic and needless and senseless, but 100% the drivers fault.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
K. P. HarrierBut, one of the photos for the below news source suggest only crossbucks were present. (See center small photo.) http://www.kob.com/new-mexico-news/report-train-hits-car-near-trinidad-five-killed/4181222/#.V3DI9Gfn-M8
It does appear to be only a crossbucks. The road looks pretty minor (lightly used) and the rail line hosts only the Amtrak train. Looks like that crossing is a good candidate for have the crossing removed/blocked.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
There is a standard sign sometimes added to crossbucks that says "LOOK FOR TRAINS". I have seen it used where visibility to each side is limited, but perhaps it could apply to situations like the one in this accident where the cause was possibly complacency due to infrequent trains.
The news says the driver entered the crossing without stopping as would be proper if he had observed no train approaching.
New info:
Train #4 was eastbound toward La Junta after stopping in Trinidad. Vehicle was stuck at public crossing with flashers and bells (no gates) located at MP 629.12 and was shoved to MP 629.8 approx. Tangent track visability for four (4) miles to Mp 625.
Engineer says vehicle was stopped on the tracks and accident is being investigated as a suicide.
diningcar,
Where do you find that information? Do you have a link?
[quote user="Euclid"]
Private source who wishes to remain so.
diningcar New info: "...Train #4 was eastbound toward La Junta after stopping in Trinidad. Vehicle was stuck at public crossing with flashers and bells (no gates) located at MP 629.12 and was shoved to MP 629.8 approx. Tangent track visability for four (4) miles to Mp 625. Engineer says vehicle was stopped on the tracks and accident is being investigated as a suicide..."
"...Train #4 was eastbound toward La Junta after stopping in Trinidad. Vehicle was stuck at public crossing with flashers and bells (no gates) located at MP 629.12 and was shoved to MP 629.8 approx. Tangent track visability for four (4) miles to Mp 625.
Engineer says vehicle was stopped on the tracks and accident is being investigated as a suicide..."
It is somewhat rewarding to see the responses to this Thread posed in responsible tones. I had watched sunday to see if other posters might respond to media reports; posting the Thread late sunday night.
The various media accounts seemed to be somewhat confused as to the events that had taken place involving the collision of Amtrak train #4.
The number of occupants in the van, and whether the van had stopped on the crossing [n one media account, 'suicide' was mentioned] ? First reports were four killed, and one was taken to hospital; The report at this time, a little over 24 hours later, is that the driver,and four passengers were killed, and one died later at the hospital.
Wanswheel, reported one of those immediate Internet appeal for Response to the incident.. A 'gofundme' appeal for money for four of the young victims of the accident....Personally, I would be highly suspicious of something like that; in this day and time, it might be viewd as "an opportunity" to make some fast sympathetic cash for the unscrupelous...
Watching a National media feed from a local station here; the scene showed what appeared to be a 'rural area', a crossing protected by only crossbucks, and the road was graveled across the tracks. There also appeared to be a slight curve to one side of the crossing with some large vegetation present- no indication of compas direction. If it blocked a view of the crossing for the vehicles approaching either by road or track(?) I have no idea if that information is correct?
Apparently, some of the linked media accounts appear to mention that the crossing was protected by crossbucks with flashing lights(?).
diningcar reported that the Engineer had reported (?) that the van had stopped on the tracks. Was the van experiencing mechanical issues, or was it in fact a deliverate act of the van's driver?
Are there any posters that might be familiar with that specific area, their input might be very helpful?
No RR or highway department is ever going to completely fix stupid. That being said what has happened to the Ohio (?) experiment to place 45 degree reflecting panels on cross buck posts ? That way at least the loco flashing ditch lights would get some driver's attention but not all. IMO that is an inexpensive way to protect crossings that have no lights or gates.
Of course the problem of keeping them clean and crossings at curves might need adjustment to the 45 degrees.
diningcar New info: Train #4 was eastbound toward La Junta after stopping in Trinidad. Vehicle was stuck at public crossing with flashers and bells (no gates) located at MP 629.12 and was shoved to MP 629.8 approx. Tangent track visability for four (4) miles to Mp 625. Engineer says vehicle was stopped on the tracks and accident is being investigated as a suicide.
Is the private source who does not want to be identified the one who is investigating the crash as a suicide?
All the news I have seen says that the driver entered the crossing without stopping. The photos of the crossing do not show any flashers.
Excerpt from Canon City Daily Record, Jun. 27
Keith Schlabach, the cousin of Christina Miller, said she was with her husband, Steve, and their four girls when they died in the collision about 3 miles north of Trinidad.
"We were at church and when they didn't show up for church, we were worried about what was going on," Schlabach said Monday morning. "We thought they were broken down or something. One of the other guys was driving back from church toward Steve's house to see what happened, and then he got to the tracks."
Schlabach said the route the Millers normally took to Trinidad Christian Church, an unincorporated congregation, crossed train tracks…
"Steve was very likable," Schlabach said. "He was very outgoing. Everybody got along with Steve. He's just that kind of guy. He really liked reaching out to people — reaching out to people and making friends."
samfp1943 Wanswheel, reported one of those immediate Internet appeal for Response to the incident.. A 'gofundme' appeal for money for four of the young victims of the accident....Personally, I would be highly suspicious of something like that; in this day and time, it might be viewd as "an opportunity" to make some fast sympathetic cash for the unscrupelous...
Sam, the wealthy website keeps 5% and the rest goes to the intended fund.
http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2015/06/24/gofundme-founders-to-reap-a-fortune-in-buyout/
Apology! I said the train was eastbound while in fact it was westbound toward Trinidad. Other technical info regarding public crossing, flashers and bells, tangent viewing distance I believe to be correct. MP's increase from east (La Junta MP 555) to west.
diningcar Apology! I said the train was eastbound while in fact it was westbound toward Trinidad. Other technical info regarding public crossing, flashers and bells, tangent viewing distance I believe to be correct. MP's increase from east (La Junta MP 555) to west.
1. The state police report says the van was not stopped on the tracks. It says at Cty Hghwy 32, which is a small, unimproved road.
2. You have said twice the crossing had flashing lights and bells, yet that is not apparent in the pictures posted.
crossing
The train was delayed 7 hr 10 min by the accident. Was shown as 8 min late at Raton and 7 hr, 18 at Trinidad. I suspect there were delays to recrew and to check out the P42 and for the sheriff to release the scene but that seems long. My heart feels for the engineer seeing kids in front of him and he is powerless to do anything.
As for the pick up truck, you can see the gate come down behind the truck. One lucky driver to survive and walk away.
County Rd 32 can be seen on Google Earth @ 37*13'14"N 104*24'29"W. That's due east of El Moro. The county road ends at the tracks and the crossing appears to be private leading to a ranch. I don't think there are usually crossbucks on private crossings.
That's assuming the media got the road number right.
Norm
Electroliner 1935 The train was delayed 7 hr 10 min by the accident. Was shown as 8 min late at Raton and 7 hr, 18 at Trinidad. I suspect there were delays to recrew and to check out the P42 and for the sheriff to release the scene but that seems long. My heart feels for the engineer seeing kids in front of him and he is powerless to do anything.
Never overestimate the zeal of local authorities to play CSI when dealing with a incident like this - also getting the proper 'units' to respond to perform their specialized functions can be an issue.
NY is increasing fines for crossing gate violations
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/drivers-fail-stop-train-crossing-gates-face-higher-article-1.2672688
Norm48327County Rd 32 can be seen on Google Earth @ 37*13'14"N 104*24'29"W. That's due east of El Moro. The county road ends at the tracks and the crossing appears to be private leading to a ranch. I don't think there are usually crossbucks on private crossings. That's assuming the media got the road number right.
The State Police report says 32. And the pictures clearly show a crossbucks and a dirt/gravel road, which ends at the crossing.
One poster here put up information from an unnamed source which appears to be false.
ABC 7
"Trooper Art Gumke says the crossing is marked with signs but doesn't have gates to stop vehicles. The girl's parents were identified as 32-year-old Stephen Miller and 33-year-old Christine Miller of Trinidad. Their daughters, ages 6, 2 and 8 months, also died.
The Colorado State Patrol released a statement saying a 2005 Chrysler Town & Country failed to yield right of way to the train and was struck at 9:45 a.m. Sunday just outside Trinidad. Four of those killed, including the driver, were pronounced dead at the scene. The fifth fatality was pronounced at a hospital."
schlimm Norm48327 The State Police report says 32. And the pictures clearly show a crossbucks and a dirt/gravel road, which ends at the crossing.
Norm48327
So a passenger train operating at track speed (79 MPH most likely) was able to strike the van on the crossbuck crossing and stop within a train length????? since there are rail cars on the crossbuck crossing. Looking at the Google Map that was a part of the television station's news feed - much more likely the vehicle was struck at the CR 36 crossing and drug until the train stopped fouling the CR 32 crossing.
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