Railroads and trains calling base stations in Canada.

[tree68]

I once had a bit of a disagreement with a fire service lecturer who thought we talked to much on the radio.  In part, he's right - some folks seem to be most interested in hearing themselves talk.

But amongst his "bucket words" - things he thought should be left out - was confirming the caller and the answerer, ie, "Engine 68 to command," "Command on for Engine 68," etc.  He thought all command should say is "command on" or something like it.

The point is that concise communications are important in both fields, and using words like "over" and "out," as well as indentifying calling and called parties are important.  

As Balt notes, radio procedure is "inspectable" and is part of evaluations I do on our conductors.

One problem we have is that many of our volunteers are here only a few times a month (or less) and bad habits have a way of sneaking in - like saying the classic "go ahead and back up."  You'd be surprised how may folks use that "crutch phrase," ie, "go ahead and mow the lawn," or whatever.

As for "call signs," I find that railroads rarely, if ever, use their actual FCC issued call sign, which would begin with a K or a W in the US.  Canadian commercial licensees use an X, as I recall.  Amateur radio enthusiasts in Canada start with a V, and broadcast is C.

Many emergency services use a name - "dispatch," "alarm," or the place name, among others, and occasionally throw the assigned call sign out.  And some rely on a Morse code identifier. 

[BaltACD]

Norm48327

I know it's in the rules to use "over" and "out"" but it's strange the rules require that when it's been long one from the rest of the radio communication world. 

Railroad radio communications is not for chit-chat, as lives can depend on each and every communication - if both parties are not clear to each other on the business that was communicated there will be serious consequences, thus communications needs to be structured so as to minimize as much as humanly possible 'THE FAILURE TO COMMUNICATE'.

As information the 'Weed Weasels' have radios and perform efficiency tests on those that use the radio in the performance of their duties.  Train Dispatcher, Train & Engine Crew, MofW Personnel (both trackment and signalmen).

[Norm48327]

I know it's in the rules to use "over" and "out"" but it's strange the rules require that when it's been long one from the rest of the radio communication world.

[BaltACD]

Current NORAC Rules

708. Radio Messages: Content and Code Words The following procedures will govern identification and content of messages when using radio: When originating or initially responding to a radio call, employees must: 1. Identify their employing railroad. 2. Identify their base station, wayside station or yard station by name or other designation of station and location. 3. Identify their mobile radio unit by: a. Schedule number if on a scheduled train. b. Symbol and engine number if on an extra train. If engine belongs to another company, that company’s initials must precede the engine number. c. TC followed by the number of the car if on a track car. d. Other appropriate mobile unit identification. Communication must be as brief as possible and must use these key words: “ROGER” . . . . tosignify that the message was received and understood. When required by Rule 705, “ROGER” also means that you have repeated instructions correctly.
“OVER” . . . . . at theclose of each transmission to which a response is expected.
“OUT” . . . . . . at theclose of each transmission to which a response is not necessary. “OUT” must be preceded by proper identification.
“EMERGENCY” . transmitted three times to obtain use of radio channels for initial report of conditions endangering train movements.

[Overmod]

NP Eddie

A GN Cascade Division timetable from 1968 instructs the train and engine crews to use radio station call letters and numbers when radioing base stations at New Westminster, BC (CJN 253) and Vancouver, BC as CJN 282) instead of the station names. That practice continued to the Pacific Division timetable of 4/7/91. The Cascade Division timetable of 4/2/95 does not list that requirement. Can anyone tell me the Canadian's requirement of radio base station's call signs instead of the name of the station?

I don't know the answer, but I can propose something for you to check.  Look to see if Canadian radio-broadcasting regulations call for the use of station ID in two-way communications on certain bands, particularly restricted bands.

"Official" practice in the United States on 'citizen's band' radios requires a user to identify themselves with their particular FCC license number in every transmission.  (In practice, things usually go otherwise ... but IIRC there were cases back in the 'convoy' days when people were threatened if not prosecuted for FCC violations during 'misuse' of the CB to evade motor-vehicle law restrictions.)  Look in particular for some evidence of deregulation or reform of the 'radio' laws between '90 and '95, perhaps in conjunction with efforts to open up spectrum to other purposes, or for some change to the radio system that was used that would avoid a 'legal' Canadian identification requirement in some way.

[AgentKid]

First there was an American law that all trains operating in the US had to be dispatched from the US, for security reasons. That it prevented outsourcing was just a happy benefit. Laws in Canada were adjusted accordingly. This all happened in the years between the original Canada-US Free Trade Agreement and 9/11.

As for using Station Call Signs, I think this may have been an over zealeous interpretation of the rules. I suspect calling "New Westminister" or "Ft. Worth" eventually became the norm.

I recall reading about informal arrangements within the Yard Limits of border stations where crews would call one side or the other for all movements within the yard.

I can't be more specific than that.

Bruce

 

[NP Eddie]

ALL:

My question is mainly about the former GN and BN from White Rock, BC (the border) to Vancouver, BC. A GN Cascade Division timetable from 1968 instructs the train and engine crews to use radio station call letters and numbers when radioing base stations at New Westminster, BC (CJN 253) and Vancouver, BC as CJN 282) instead of the station names. That practice continued to the Pacific Division timetable of 4/7/91. The Cascade Division timetable of 4/2/95 does not list that requirement. Can anyone tell me the Canadian's requirement of radio base station's call signs instead of the name of the station? I am also aware that the GN, BN, and now BNSF's dispatchers in New Westminster,a BC. Is there a requirement that trains operating in Canada be dispatcher from Canade? I suspect that moving the New Westminster dispatcher to Fort Worth would be a difficult move in light of the incumbents (Canadian citizens) transferring to Fort Worth.

Thank you,

Ed Burns

Happily retired NP-BN-BNSF from Minneapolis.