I never knew of the abandoned coach.
That's actually not Star Lake. Star Lake predates the iron ore mine and is the name of the village and of the lake that's just southwest from the old mine, on the south side of Route 3 (The mine with the water filled pit is on the north side).
And the Iowa Pacific operation in the southeast edge of the Adirondacks and Star Lake on the Mohawk Adirondack & Northern line from West Carthage where it connects to a CSX branch off the St. Lawrence Subdivision, are actually not terribly close.
It's probably 80 miles or so as the bird flies, and many more by highway or rail. Despite living in the North Country my entire life, I've been to Lake George once for instance. Yet I've been to Star Lake and other nearby communities like Lake Placid hundreds of times.
It's hard to appreciate from aerial views off sources like Google, but there are large mounds around the mine that are now covered by vegetation and look like hills, that are all the overburden from the mine that they want to sell as gravel for construction purposes. That's the immediate attraction to rail restoration with the paper mill now gone for good.
And Benson Mines/Star Lake isn't quite the end of the line. Nearby Newton Falls is the end of the line and is where a shuttered paper mill is which is another site they hope to locate a new industry to. All together, I believe it's 43 miles from the CSX connection to Newton Falls (The last 23 of which are within the Adirondack Park).
Check out the November 1997 issue of Trains if you want to learn more about the Mohawk Adirondack & Northern and this rail line. It's a bit out of date, but still a good read.
MidlandMike Iowa Pacific was also hoping for a grant to rehab the former D&H branch north of North Creek to the Tahawas mine to reclaim waste rock. I wonder if they were considered?
Iowa Pacific was also hoping for a grant to rehab the former D&H branch north of North Creek to the Tahawas mine to reclaim waste rock. I wonder if they were considered?
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MidlandMikeo Benson Mines.
What Leo said....
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
With the closure of the on-line paper mill in Newton Falls that was supposed to be a user of the outer portion of this line that's being rebuilt, reclamation of the waste rock left over from the iron ore mine is the immediate reason why they're making this investment.
Secondly is that it's a rare industrial zoned area amid a depressed area of the Adirondacks and it's hoped that by restoring this infrastructure, that something will locate there someday down the road after the environmental remediation that's underway is complete and bring a few well paying jobs to the Star Lake area.
Alas, iron ore mining won't be coming back. What's left was too expensive to recover back in the 1970's and is much too expensive to even consider going after today.
Tree, on the subject of Adirondack area rails, today's NewsWire says that NY is giving funds to re-establish rail access to Benson Mines. Is the mine actually re-opening, or are they just going to reclaim the wasterock.
LocoEngineer7Sorry but it is not a railroad subject to STB Jurisdiction. It is irrelevant that it connects to the National System. That question only counts for FRA jurisdiction.
FRA has jurisdiction, trust me. But not STB.
Caboose - this 34 miles of track (and the rest of it, for that matter) is important to them because it's a blight on their pristine forest. They just want everyone out of their woods...
too bad the trail advocates and their pals would just go away and leave the railroad alpone. why is it so important to have the 34 miles of track?
I hope the Adirondack is given great news and the trail advocates/snowmobilers are given a huge defeat. i mean really, how many trails do snowmobilers and other outdoor types in new york state really need?
CandOforprogress2 It does have a connection to Amtrak at Utica NY. So like the Grand Canyon railroad is part of the national system.
It does have a connection to Amtrak at Utica NY. So like the Grand Canyon railroad is part of the national system.
Physical connection does not make it a part of the "national system". Many industrial lines are connected to common carriers. Earlier (in this thread or one of the others on this line) it had already been established that STB has no jurisdiction in this case.
The wrinkle with the whole deed thing is that NYS now owns the major portion of the adjacent lands, so it's not like there are many private citizens (or corporations, for that matter) to contest anything having to do with the corridor.
AFAIK, property ownership was not a part of the railroad's suit. That had to do mostly with the manner in which the decision was made to move toward lifting the rails.
wanswheel Excerpt from WAMC radio, Feb. 1 http://wamc.org/post/lawsuit-challenging-adirondack-rail-trail-plan-delayed-judge-s-question Trails with Rails Action Committee supports keeping the tracks intact. Coordinator Bob Hest was at the hearing in Malone. He says Judge Robert G. Main Jr. wanted to know the easement conditions granted by landowners when the railroad was built. “The judge's question I think took both parties by surprise. During the proceedings the judge said if the easement was granted for railroad use and the railroad infrastructure is removed, what is your comment? And the attorney for New York State said well if there’s no rail infrastructure then the easement for railroad use is extinguished. And the judge said I’d like to meet with counsel in my chambers.” Hest noted that the judge wants lawyers from both sides to determine whether new trails would violate rail easement agreements. “If there is no longer a railroad that uses that there’s going to be an issue. Each private land owner they're probably going back to their deeds and wondering what’s in them and think about whether they want a trail across their property that uses the railroad right of away. It’s an interesting twist.”
Excerpt from WAMC radio, Feb. 1
http://wamc.org/post/lawsuit-challenging-adirondack-rail-trail-plan-delayed-judge-s-question
Trails with Rails Action Committee supports keeping the tracks intact. Coordinator Bob Hest was at the hearing in Malone. He says Judge Robert G. Main Jr. wanted to know the easement conditions granted by landowners when the railroad was built. “The judge's question I think took both parties by surprise. During the proceedings the judge said if the easement was granted for railroad use and the railroad infrastructure is removed, what is your comment? And the attorney for New York State said well if there’s no rail infrastructure then the easement for railroad use is extinguished. And the judge said I’d like to meet with counsel in my chambers.”
Hest noted that the judge wants lawyers from both sides to determine whether new trails would violate rail easement agreements. “If there is no longer a railroad that uses that there’s going to be an issue. Each private land owner they're probably going back to their deeds and wondering what’s in them and think about whether they want a trail across their property that uses the railroad right of away. It’s an interesting twist.”
Few people are aware of the 'Easement Conditions' of properties deeded to the railroads for their use. This area has the potential to be a real "mine field" for Real Estate transactions involving old (abandoned railroad ROWs). I got a little 'schooling' from mudchicken on this subject, and 'abandoned' line in a community I had lived in. (Row was originally platted to the DM&A RR as narrow gauge ,but had changed hands to the MoPacRR who made it 'standard gauge', later abandoned when a flood in the 1960s took out a major river bridge, breaking its route. The local 'story' was that adjacent land owners could reclaim part of the property; turned out to be not quite true. The tale was in the County's Register of Deeds.
Sounds as if there are some local 'legal idiocyncracies' in that Adirondack land, that could have some unintended consequences for the 'Trail Advocates', and their Real Estate dreams.
There needs to be some serious research in the Counties Registrar's Deed records, to get the true story of that former NYC Row. I don't think that 'fast and dirty', ginned-up paperwork by some lawyer is going to work in this case.
Railroad ownership of it's ROW has many - many facets and the answer will vary from State to State. Sometimes easement occupation has been defined in early statutes legislated when RR's were being solicited to build new lines. In the 19th century POPULIST MOVEMENT States (like Kansas) legislated that even if the RR purchased the ROW at a price and terms agreed to by the seller the seller was under duress because the RR had the right to condem if terms could not be agreed upon.
Each State has it's own history of statutes and litigation on this subject with "Case Law" (Case Law means that a trial was held and a ruling made) deciding some individual situations.
aegrotatioI haven't been to the 'dacks in a long time. Are there really other bicycle trails in the Adirondacks? Everything I hiked or canoe-portaged on was definitely not suited for any kind of non-motorized bike. It's all hiking, portaging, or snowmobiling. But back then no motorized vehicles were allowed on the trails in the Adirondacks.
Are there really other bicycle trails in the Adirondacks? Everything I hiked or canoe-portaged on was definitely not suited for any kind of non-motorized bike. It's all hiking, portaging, or snowmobiling. But back then no motorized vehicles were allowed on the trails in the Adirondacks.
It's mostly mountain biking or sharing the highways, but there are some like the Bloomingdale Bog Trail. I believe that's even a rail trail on abandoned D&H right of way for several miles.
A more logical recourse if this campaign was genuine (I've long felt that tree68's suspicions were right on the mark) would be to let this live, and further develop abandoned right of ways in the Adirondacks like more of the D&H, if they want bicycle trails.
There are even abandoned rail bridges that could be utilized in places in the Adirondacks, like this line in Essex County or the abandoned Au Sable Forks branch of the D&H.
https://bridgehunter.com/category/railroad/lake-champlain-moriah-railroad/
That they're targeting an active tourist road to get the rails lifted just screams of ulterior motives from those leading the charge, like the old coot that has financed the campaign.
Facts have a tendency to be stranger than fiction.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
wanswheel . . . The judge also asked the state to provide more information on the ownership of the railroad corridor... . . . Nevertheless, [Judge] Main expressed concern that the state’s existing right of way on the parcels may not allow for uses other than a railroad. If the right of way does not allow a recreational trail, he asked, “isn’t the proposal doomed to failure?” . . .
- Paul North.
aegrotatio But back then no motorized vehicles were allowed on the trails in the Adirondacks.
Many areas of the Adirondacks prohibit "mechanical conveyances." And that includes some portions of the corridor - the existance of the corridor is the only thing that lets snowmobiles run there.
I'm thoroughly convinced the ultimate goal is to keep everyone out. I doubt you'll ever see the trail, except in some of the "urban" areas...
Leo_AmesThere are real trails all over the Adirondacks. Hundreds of miles of them and a good number of which can be enjoyed already by snowmobilers (As the Adirondack Scenic's ROW already could in the winter).
I haven't been to the 'dacks in a long time.
MidlandMike CandOforprogress2 How is it that you can rip up rail without permission from Surface Transportation Boards AKA the ICC! IIRC the STB considers this to be a tourist line, rather than part of the national transportation system.
CandOforprogress2 How is it that you can rip up rail without permission from Surface Transportation Boards AKA the ICC!
How is it that you can rip up rail without permission from Surface Transportation Boards AKA the ICC!
IIRC the STB considers this to be a tourist line, rather than part of the national transportation system.
The major legal impediments to lifting the rails will likely be their historical status. The corridor is on both the state and federal registers of historic places.
Simply getting a ruling in favor of lifting the rails will be a start for these folks - even if the rails don't come up, there will be no rail traffic (and maintenance) on the line, and it can be left to moulder, returning slowly to nature...
Leo_AmesKilling something unique to gain a trail...
Ahh, but you see, there is the rub. The "trail advocates" don't want a trail. They want everyone out of "their" woods. The rails have to come up so they can get rid of the "corridor" designation and thus get rid of all users.
The NYC line thru the Androrondacs was actualy part of a greater system that would connect the United States Capital Washington DC with the Capital of Canada Ottawa ON. The thought was that both would be megacitys someday. and that Canada would have 100 million people and that the US would have 300 Million People. Somehow Ottawa is still small but Toronto Became the de facto Capital by way of banking and International relations.
There are real trails all over the Adirondacks. Hundreds of miles of them and a good number of which can be enjoyed already by snowmobilers (As the Adirondack Scenic's ROW already could in the winter).
That's the pitiful part of all of this. Killing something unique to gain a trail resource that largely will only be enjoyed by the same crowd that was already enjoying it each winter.
The Adirondack has an abundance of far more appealing trails for summer hikers. I bet on the average day in June-August, you'll be able to count the number of passerbys on the fingers of one hand in the more remote center portions of their new trail.
This is a fine attractive for a train ride, but a rather boring walk in comparison to the average purpose built trail. And judging by some of the swampland they skirt by, I imagine the poor people that do take it on will be fly/mosquito food during large periods of the tourist season and won't be coming back for a 2nd go at it.
tree68 The hearing lasted about 45 minutes, and the judge asked for more information from the state. Depending on how long that takes, we'll just have to wait patiently.
The hearing lasted about 45 minutes, and the judge asked for more information from the state. Depending on how long that takes, we'll just have to wait patiently.
I hope you win, Larry. A real trail could be somewhere else in the forest.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
BaltACDIf the Judge were to state something in his ruling for the RR that - 'the trail advocates don't OWN the woods and their opposition is 'trivial' - would that bolster the RR's long term position?
I suspect anything that takes the wind out of their sails - ie, dismissing all or part of the concept of the trail, even "you're wasting our time" - would certainly benefit the railroad in the long term. I doubt that he can prohibit any further trail campaigns, but suggesting that they are wasting their time would certainly put a dent in their efforts.
My phrase "out of 'their' woods" is a nod to those folks who seem to feel that their view for the Adirondack forest is the only one worth considering. In fact, the state owns very significant portions of the Adirondack Park.
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