Junior Yardmaster and Jeffrey Pletcher:Imagine 3 of us from Olney/Bridgeport area on the same discussion. I would have never guessed. It would be great to see those photos from the B&O and IC lines thru Olney. I cannot help you with the technology in order to upload....beyond my capabilities.
Nor can I message you, as I cannot figure that out.
You, or anyone else can email me at edmosser@comcast.net.
BTW, CSX ran a boxcar storage train from Vincennes to Flora over the weekend according to a Vincennes fan. He posted a drone video of it crossing the Wabash River.
Loved those old CPL signals...gone but not forgotten.
Ed
Robert McClanahan, retired Superintendent of the Cotton Belt told me about his time as Terminal Superintendent at East St. Louis. McClanahan said that one of the most important parts about his job was knowing about the location and operations of all the connecting railroads in the St. Louis area. Getting transfer cars to and from these outlying yards from Valley Junction was imperative for Cotton Belt's reputation as a bridge line carrier. We were looking at a St. Louis area map hung in the Arkansas Railroad Museum when this conversation occured last year.
Another Ed
MP173 Years ago (1998 to be exact) we were in St. Louis for the weekend and rode the light rail line...what a great piece of intrastructure. The TRRA and A&S are interesting operations (probably more so in the 60's and prior). So much attention has been given to St. Louis Union Station and the passenger operations (and rightfully so), but the freight movements, primarily on the east side of the river had to have been just as interesting. Fred Fraily penned a great book on the Blue Streak Merchandise which gives us a peek at the St. Louis/East St. Louis freight operations. I believe he also wrote the great 2 piece article in the 1980s on "River Wars", which outlined the MoPac/Cotton Belt "wars" from Dupo south and west to Kansas City. Can anyone recommend any other resources (books, web, articles, etc) on St. Louis and the diverse operations which occurred at this critical junction?Ed
Years ago (1998 to be exact) we were in St. Louis for the weekend and rode the light rail line...what a great piece of intrastructure. The TRRA and A&S are interesting operations (probably more so in the 60's and prior). So much attention has been given to St. Louis Union Station and the passenger operations (and rightfully so), but the freight movements, primarily on the east side of the river had to have been just as interesting.
Fred Fraily penned a great book on the Blue Streak Merchandise which gives us a peek at the St. Louis/East St. Louis freight operations. I believe he also wrote the great 2 piece article in the 1980s on "River Wars", which outlined the MoPac/Cotton Belt "wars" from Dupo south and west to Kansas City.
Can anyone recommend any other resources (books, web, articles, etc) on St. Louis and the diverse operations which occurred at this critical junction?Ed
Yes,MP173, the lightrail Metrolink does use the routing used by Wabash and later N&W through Forest Park and past Delmar Station. Their Delmar stop is right down the hill from the station. When parents and I rode City of St. Louis to CA, we used Wabash to get to KC where our car was switched along with others to UP and later SP at Ogden to Sacramento, our destination to visit Mom's niece. I took same route two times with friends but it was N&W out of here by that time. The Delmar Station is still standing, not in use, but there is talk of restoration. Joe Edwards who's the prime mover and shaker of the Delmar Loop entertainment is building a streetcar line from Forest Park Metrolink stop to the Loop with financing from the Feds. It will roll right past Delmar station and his hotel the Moonrise is a couple of blocks away so that might help revitalize that area.
Amtrak usually uses the McArthur bridge which crosses the River south of the Arch, but sometimes when freight traffic is busy, they will be transferred over to Merchants Bridge and use the High Line and under the Arch to their station. I like that route because it is more scenic along the River past the new Stan Musial bridge a/k/a Stan Span and past the Eads too.
sounds like everyone had good info. I live here in the Lou and very familiar with the tunnel under downtown. It did start as you crossed over Eads Bridge and came out near Busch Stadium, which was not there when I rode trains with parents. There were a bunch of buildings in the area, one of them was Frisco's freight house at 7th and Cerre and torn down for the Busch 1 built in 1966. I remember coming back from Wash DC on B&O and we crossed over McArthur bridge. But I think IC from New Orleans came over Eads and through the tunnel. NYC from Niagara Falls used the Merchants Bridge north of downtown and came down the High Line along the River. I worked for my cousin right after high school and his law office overlooked the River. Every day about 1:30, I would see the NYC train we rode passing over the High Line, the Arch was not built yet. The line went underground in front of the Arch. When you'd be in some restaurants downtown like Forum Cafeteria or Miss Hullings which was on a lower basement level, you could feel vibrations when trains passed under your feet.
Metrolink light rail uses the tunnel now and they own Eads Bridge, bought it from Terminal RR. I didn't even know Terminal still existed until I've seen their trains recently coming over from east side as we all IL across the river. They had owned Union Station and when it closed, that ended. The stepfather of Dad's uncle who raised him worked as signalman on Eads Bridge for the Terminal in early 1900's. Dad remembered going down to visit him and he had a little hut he sat in to work the signals for the trains. Had to be a cold job on a winter day.
Olney, IL-visited that with local railfan group coming back from IN caboose trip. Saw the white squirrels in the park running around. We did visit B&O museum in their huge station at Flora, IL. At least it wasn't torn down and is being used as the museum.
New owners at Union Station, remodeling the hotel and now they are working on the old "headhouse" which housed many shops until recent years. They even want to put a ferris wheel in the old shed area outside. They are very train friendly and want to bring an excursion train back like the American Rail Cruise green train that ran for a few years I have many memories of boarding trains with my parents at Union going everywhere and Mom had the same memories of riding trains with her mom on her dad's Frisco pass and later her own and then Dad's. She always said she was RR from cradle to grave, her dad, her, my Dad and RR retirement after his death.
A great resource on St. Louis is Morning Sun's "Trackside Around St. Louis 1952-1959" by James Sandrin. The book is full of photos taken by the late Jim Ozment, and has summary information regarding each railroad's operations in St. Louis. I took a photo in 1972 of Amtrak's "National Limited" emerging from the tunnel beneath downtown, headed westward toward Union Station. I couldn't figure out how to upload it here.
I lived not far from Olney during that time period, in the town of Bridgeport. I took some photos in Olney, mostly of the B&O when there was still passenger service, and a few of the I.C. It's sad to think that the former B&O is no longer a through route. If someone is interested in seeing the photos and can tell me how to upload them, I would be glad to do so.
Yes, I recall the "Center of Population of the United States". There was a photo in the National Geographic of a local farmer, Carl Snider, holding a stalk of corn at the exact location...or so we were led to believe.
My parents owned the Dundas General Store. The IC line bisected town and was the big event of the day (actual twice a day) was when the Mattoon - Evansville trains came thru....usually the southbound 295 around noon and 296 between 2pm and 4pm. I believe the trains often met at either Olney or Calhoon. I never had the opportunity to ride in the locomotives, but I did spend considerable time watching them switch the team track with limestone.
I have a faint memory of dad taking me to Olney and we watched an IC special passenger train which ran south...must have been around 1960.
Ate a few meals at Mikes and Hovey's.
Small world. I still have a small farm back near Dundas. Great place to grow up as a kid.
If you grew up in Dundas, you undoubtedly know that in 1950 Dundas was the center of population of the United States; there's a small monument out there somewhere proclaiming that. My father was a doctor in Olney, and volunteered to spend time in the ambulance which was stationed at the site. My nickname, "junior yardmaster" was given to me by the crews on the Mattoon-Evansville division of the IC. With the permission and invitation of the crews, I got a lot of free rides up and down the Olney yards. I have a 50-foot film, which I took with my dad's old Keystone 8mm camera, of some of the activities in the yard. Junior yardmaster
Ed, I missed the Wabash's route past the Delmar station by one day. In 1969, I came into St. Louis on the B&O one day in the spring, and took the Bluebird out the next morning--which was the first morning that 15 (as I recall) minutes was saved in the schedule by using the same route to the Merchants Bridge that the GM&O and NYC used--more or less directly to the river and then up along the river to the bridge.
As to the GM&O, only one train from Chicago passed through East St. Louis and used the Eads Bridge.
In the summer of 1968, I came in on the L&N, and I watched the flagman take the markers down just before entering the tunnel.
Edited to clarify "only one train" (of the GM&O); the trains to/from the South also came through East St. Louis.
Johnny
So, it appears that certain passenger trains for Union Station would cross the river on the Eads and then drop into the tunnel and exit near 8th and Clark and arrive at Union Station. From the TRRA magazine it appears that GM&O trains did so, my guess is that NYC trains did also as the two railroads had paired trackage from Lennox Tower into East St. Louis.
I rode the B&O as a kid and do not recall a tunnel...surely that would have been a lasting memory for this flatlander. However, i do not recall crossing a bridge. The only memory of the train ride was seeing all the yards on the north side of the train (which would have been the PRR yards). Funny how that memory persists. My memories of Union Station are quite vivid, particularly of playing pinball while awaiting change of train. I watched an obvious railroad employee play and he racked up a number of "wins" and then "gave" me the machine. Free pinball! That was my first time playing.
The Wabash took a circular route out of Union Station, according to Official Guides and the book "Wabash in Color v2". Eastbound trains for Chicago and Detroit actually headed west and stopped at Delmar Station which was 5.6 miles out of Union. It is assumed the trains then made a right hand turn at the TRRA tracks north of Page Avenue and headed back east, crossing the river on Merchants Bridge and then headed north, stopping at Granite City.
The September 1950 shows Wabash trains consuming 37 minutes on the routing from Union Station to Delmar to Granite City. Meanwhile, New York Central sprinted from Union Station to Granite City in 22 minutes. Obviously Wabash considered the time worthwhile in order to pickup extra passengers from the Western St. Louis area on the ultra competitive Chicago market. BTW we rode the NW train City of St. Louis to Denver in 1966 and followed that routing to Delmar and then to Kansas City.
I believe the former Wabash routing is used by St. Louis light rail service.
Fascinating railroading city, past and present. The Mississippi River offered amazing challenges both in crossing the river and the change from "east" to "west" in the industry...challenges which exists today.
Ed -
Passenger Terminals and Trains, John A. Droege, 1912, reprinted by Kalmbach 1975 - also available on-line Google Books & elsewhere for under $10 -
http://www.amazon.com/Passenger-Terminals-Trains-John-Droege/dp/0890240159/ref=pd_cp_14_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=0QKZS4R029EF5A37V74Y
See esp. pgs. 13 - 125 incl. Figs. 86 - 88; plus 241 (brief description of coach yards), and 180 (rules of operation).
Might also find something in the railroad periodicals of the era - perhaps Mike / wanswheel could help some more with that.
- Paul North.
Just saw "the tunnel" today at dinner. It's just oustside Busch Stadium (current Cardinals ballyard) goes from 8th & Clark/ (off end of light rail platform) to over to Eads Bridge via 8th & Wshingtonon the ex-TRRA route.
https://archive.org/stream/reportofengineer00stlo#page/n7/mode/2up
https://archive.org/stream/STLRRTour/img268#page/n1/mode/2up
I just found a "St. Louis Regional Railfan Timetable #1" from 1995 which is old but contains pretty good info regarding routes, maps, etc.
junior yardmaster:Small world. I grew up about 7 miles north of Olney (Dundas). The IC line was my introduction to railroading. The southbound IC would switch limestone cars quite often in spring and summer months. I would ride my bike over to watch the action.
Yes, the B&O depot is long gone. Back in the early 70s an auto was struck by a WB B&O and struck the depot. The damage to the depot was obvious and remained a warning for those who attempted to beat the train.
As you probably know the B&O line is now out of service. The line was split near Noble and also further west toward St. Louis. Grain trains run in and out of Olney on the B&O to IC line south to Continental grain. Sad that the trains do not run thru town...but that is progress.
MP173 As a kid, we travelled by train to and thru St. Louis...on the B&O from Olney, Il to Union Station and then westward on either the MoPac or NW (ex Wabash) to Colorado. Thus, I have had always had a fascination for Union Station and the operations in St. Louis. A few trips to the area have resulted in views from I55 as I carefully navigated thru the region. At a recent Chicago Railroad Collectibles show I purchased a TRRA historical society magazine on the TRRA towers and have become very interested in the freight operations, particularly on the Illinois side and the old freight house region around Biddle Street. Mention is made in the magazine of "the tunnel" to reach Union Station. Where did this tunnel begin/end? Also what was the routing of passenger trains from the east to Union Station? More questions to follow...gotta run to Mothers Day brunch. I was raised in Olney IL and graduated school there. As a 14-year-old I spent most of my spare time in the Illinois Central yards near Walnut Street in Olney. When I went into the Army in 1959 I got on the train at the B & O depot in Olney. Regrettably, the old depot is long gone.
As a kid, we travelled by train to and thru St. Louis...on the B&O from Olney, Il to Union Station and then westward on either the MoPac or NW (ex Wabash) to Colorado. Thus, I have had always had a fascination for Union Station and the operations in St. Louis. A few trips to the area have resulted in views from I55 as I carefully navigated thru the region.
At a recent Chicago Railroad Collectibles show I purchased a TRRA historical society magazine on the TRRA towers and have become very interested in the freight operations, particularly on the Illinois side and the old freight house region around Biddle Street.
Mention is made in the magazine of "the tunnel" to reach Union Station. Where did this tunnel begin/end? Also what was the routing of passenger trains from the east to Union Station?
More questions to follow...gotta run to Mothers Day brunch.
I was raised in Olney IL and graduated school there. As a 14-year-old I spent most of my spare time in the Illinois Central yards near Walnut Street in Olney. When I went into the Army in 1959 I got on the train at the B & O depot in Olney. Regrettably, the old depot is long gone.
The tunnel (and Eads Bridge) is now used by the light rail line, which has some subway-like stations in downtown STL.
The tunnel that MP173 asks about began almost as soon as trains came off the Eads Bridge, and continued almost to Busch Stadium. It has tight clearances for railroad passenger coaches--so tight that the marker lamps had to be taken down before entering the tunne;. the flagman was quite busy once the train came off the bridge.
The PRR, L&N, and B&O came directly to Eads Bridge; the Southern came into East St. Louis a little farther south and used the Eads Bridge; as well as I can tell, the IC from Carbondale used the MacArthur Bridge, and the other roads from the East and Northeast (with the exception of a GM&O train that stopped in East St. Louis and used the Eads Bridge and the Illinois Terminal, which used the McKinley Bridge) used the Merchants Bridge. The Amtrak train that came to St. Louis on the Southern also used the MacArthur Bridge.
Guess I gotta go look for "tunnels" now. I'm staying at the Doubletree Mon-Wed of this coming week.
ed
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