Sigh, how railroads have lost their importance

[Anonymous]

US railroads have not lost their importance, relevance or significance. Not only is freight doing better than ever, it is just barely enough ahead of the curve to disguise the fact that without adequate RR shipment, we'd all be a-hurting.

Threads on this board have posted articles like the one worrying about whether coal-fired power plants will maintain adequate stockpiles given the tendency of unit trains to dump the same dumb load over and over. Another discussed the rise of alternatives shipping venues thru Gulf of Mexico ports rather than via Panamax ships or coast-to-coast transmodal'ing.

The supply chain appears to be stretched so tight that if there ARE shortages of power, car parts, Wal-Mart merch., etc., THEN the gen'l public will become aware of the railroads in terms of their failure to keep up! [:(]

But since no news isn't exactly good news, the RR's and friends have got to sing their praises. Much as I like steam, I think we should also be hearing more about just how much RR deliveries of freight (and coal, etc.) make a meaningful difference in our lives. For example, BNSF's 2004 Annual Report show the significance of their freight when it gets to end-consumption on the part of a "typical American family" at breakfast time. (Check it out on their website; it's downloadable via .pdf as well.)

Thirty-plus years ago the A.A.R. had a TV campaign: "Go, Grow by the Rail Way." Why aren't we hearing more of that? [:p]

[Bob-Fryml]

At the end of World War 2, the United States accounted for fully one half of the world's Gross National Product. Among the five largest industrial companies in this country then were General Motors, United States Steel, The American Telephone and Telegraph Company, one of the Standard Oils, and The Pennsylvania Railroad. In today's world it pains me to see that soap makers like Proctor & Gamble, soda pop dispensers like Coca-Cola, hamburger merchants like McDonalds, several pharmaceutical houses, and dot-comers like Microsoft or Amazon do more business each year than even the largest of North American railroads. Heck, both General Electric's annual net income and one month's worth of retailing activity at Wal-Mart exceeds the annual revenues of the Union Pacific Railroad! Yet, we must keep in mind that the American railroad industry first exceeded W.W.2 freight ton-miles in 1965 and traffic has ... what ... more than doubled since then on what is now a smaller physical plant.

Yes the classic passenger trains are gone as are the storied names of Erie Lackawanna; New York, Ontario and Western; Chicago, North Shore and Milwaukee; the Rock Island Line; Chicago Great Western; "The Louie;" and the once mighty Chicago, Milwaukee, Saint Paul and Pacific, but the freight business is the best it has ever been. We railfans should all be thankful for that!

[Anonymous]

One reason that Microsoft has so much cash is because they are one of the most successful near monopolies in history. Also, consider that they have been busted by anti-trust authorities in both the US and in Europe. Does that give you any clue about where their money comes from?

[soapbox]

[oltmannd]

Railroads are relevant, but almost invisible. Kinda like sewers.

RRs sure could do a lot more to become more visisble. Dave K has the right idea.

NS has a new office building in mid-town Atlanta, near the city's arts and entertainment district, with a wide open glass entrance way. A perfect place for a public RR display. Wonder if they'll do anything.

[daveklepper]

You don't even need a steam locomotive. Every town that has a railroad facility of any type should have a yearly "Open House." Kids to inspect the inside of a diesel cab, equipment display, maybe a portable model railroad, a continuous entertaining and informative flick on a large videa screen with sound, etc.

[motor]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lfish


They don't make Christmas movies about Windows, there are remarkably few folk songs about the Crash of Ol' Operating Systems, and nobody ever lay awake at night listening to the far-off *ping* of incoming e-mail and dreaming of far away places. Also, folk legends of heroic Sys Ops are non-existent. We are embedded way deeper in the culture.

LOL

motor

[chad thomas]

I originaly wrote this on another forum but thought I would throw it on here.



I awoke early this morning with that very question foremost on my mind. The first thing I did was turn on the light switch. And the room lit up. Light provided by electricity. Electricity that came from the local power grid. But where did it come from? It could have come from a coal fired power plant. Coal that was delivered by a railroad from the Powder river basin or the Colorado coal fields. Or more than likely generated by the Hoover dam. A dam that could not be built without the railroads that provided the raw materials for the dam itself. Either way a railroad made it possible.

In my waking moments I lay in my bed thinking about it. Housed in the comfort of my home. A home built with materials that were undoubtedly transported by the railroads at one point in time. Starting with lumber that started out as logs harvested in one of the forests that provided raw materials for the construction industry. They may or may not have traveled to the mill on railroad cars but they most likely were delivered to the local lumber supply via the railroad. And then there is the sheetrock. Sheetrock supplied by companies like US gypsum that ship by rail to market from places like Empire Nevada.

Then I get in the shower. A shower of water that that flowed through aqueducts that were built with materials delivered by the railroad. Delivered to water systems that are purified with chemicals the railroad transported to market like chlorine.

Then I eat breakfast. Breakfast of foods that started out as grain. Grain that rode the rails to processing plants like General Mills that transform that grain into cereals. And washed down with drinks like those that were made with citrus fruits grown in fertile valleys and transported by rail to processing plants like Tropicana.

Then I walk outside and get in my car. A car built with parts that most certainly traveled by rail at more than one point in there delivery. Starting with the taconite pellets, coal and coke that are transported to the steel mills that provide the raw steel. The petrol byproducts that provide the plastic interior parts. And let’s not forget about the fluids the car needs to run. How many times did railroads transport there ingreediance?

Then upon arrival at the office I see a multitude of items that surly once rode the rails. Starting with the office equipment that was made east of the Pacific and transported via container ship destined to be transloaded onto intermodial train to be delivered to distribution centers. Then there is the paper that could have started out as mill waste transported in chip cars to the pulp mills. Then transported to office supply distribution centers via railroads. And then there is the mail and UPS shipments that probably rode in TOFC trains between hubs. Oh lets not forget my fellow employees that rode the commuter train and light rail into work today.

After work I come home where as I write this I am drinking a cold beer. A beer made with grains that were delivered to the brewery by the railroad. And once again rode the rails as packaged product. And I haven’t even gotten to dinner yet, or to the tra***hat rides the rails to landfills. And I might be typing all night if I get into the chemicals under the sink and out in the shed. So are railroads relevant? You tell me.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173

Microsoft's dividend situation is sort of a once in awhile type thing.

They have accumulated so much cash, no make that SO MUCH CASH, that they have nothing to do with it. So, they are giving it back to the owners of the company.

Why? Lets see:
1. Cannot find anyone worth while to purchase in tech industry.
2. Do not want to fight Justice Dept over any purchases in the tech industry.
3. T bills and commercial paper are returning about 3% now, which tends to drag down the ROE.
4. Railroads are not a core business and should not be invested in even tho Mr. Gates does seem to like trains (or so I have read). Plus the ROE for railroads is pretty low.
5. The tax rate on dividends is fairly low at this time, so it makes sense to do so.
6. By being a dividend paying company, it puts Microsoft into play as a "value" stock, thus making it a stock which "value" funds can purchase. So, it is more liquid.

Microsoft is a textbook company for stocks that should be owned. Enormous brand recognition and huge ROE. Same for Coca Cola, McDonalds, and a few others. Note those companies have relatively few assets, the opposite of rails, which are asset intensive, have no brand loyalty and basically have a product that is a commodity (except for value added situations)

So they cant all give there employees a raise who is the real sweat of there company?

[Anonymous]

The average Joe stopped at that rail crossing has no idea, and could care less that the double stack, grain or tank car blocking his progress is an important link, in the manufacturing and economic chain that is of essential importance to his/her lifestyle.
It's got to be tough for railroad pr. (are there any?) men to put a positive spin on things when the public perception of a railroad is that of a nusience blowing their horns at night and keeping him/her fom getting to that next red light quicker.
But let there be a wreck or strike...well we don't hear about strikes much any more, so another kind of major service disruption usually makes the news.
Amtrak doesn't even advertize much any more
Jimmy

[daveklepper]

I have an idea and it is up to you guys to sell it. One way railroads TO GET FAVORABLE PUBLICITY is to have a steam special come to town. These are usually fantrip specials, and we railfans pay high ticket prices to ride them, with insurance and everything that our clubs have to pay to make them possible.

Suppose the UP took its steam locomotives and put them to work on FREIGHT TRAINS, even intermodal trains. Not regularly, but sporadically when operating conditions made it possible. Once in a great while a UP freight train comes to Portland with a 884 or the Chalenger on the point. Once in a great while to Oakland. Once in a great while to Los Angelels, even to through the trench to the ports. Of course the locomotive has to be on display and any family with kids 6 - 15 can have their children get a tour of the locomotive cab.

The UP has the abililty to pull this off better than anyone else.

[georgel]

I donot beleive the general public needs too much education on what R.R.do for them, I do wi***he AAR or other group would do a little tv time on R.R. safety; i.e. grade crossings and ROW violations. Yes a spot ad now and then on the ton miles or tons of a certain product moved would help with the issue of importance of the R.R. industry.

[bobwilcox]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe


Suddenly, I just don't feel as though my passion for trains is that important to the public anymore.[sigh]

Gabe

It was a far better world!

[Anonymous]

Exxon is worth even more than Microsoft, but not too many people get nostalgic for Esso stations or Standard stations or "They'll never get rid of the Tiger."

[AntonioFP45]

Hey Gabe,[:D][8D]

Don't feel down, guy.

Railroads may have lost their "high status" with the public that they enjoyed years back, but by NO MEANS have they lost their importance! Just try to imagine what would happen if all of the operations and maintenance workers of every Class 1 and Class II railroads in the U.S went on strike! You'd see the President, Congress, Dept. of Transportation, and thousands of businesses go into "Panic Attack" mode!

I took a course in economics when I attended Junior College, and was happy to learn that railroads are still an integral part of the economy! It has already been established that trucks cannot handle the bulk shipments like the Class 1s can. Look at how incredibly successful the intermodal business is. Phenomenal! Look at raw material shipments. Are you going to get 200 trucks to carry what a 100 car coal train can carry? Forget it!

We've joked on this forum in how Union Pacific has been so overwhelmed that it's actually turning shippers away! (price they're paying for "single tracking" most of their mainline track back in the 1980s! )

The problem (if it is a problem) is that the public today views railroads as utilities, as a poster above so well put it. Except for bullet trains, the glitz and glamour are gone.

Now how do we generally treat utilities today? We pretty much ignore them.....even their t.v commercials.......until the power goes out, or the telephone quits working, or a water line breaks........then it's Red Alert and we have a hissy fit!

So inspite of the low return on investing, frivolous lawsuits against them, ongoing labor problems, safety issues, and some bad business decisions (these are what the naysayers "nit pick" about) the railroads along with the trucking industry are still an integral part of our economy. Anyone that thinks otherwise is not doing his or her research.

Most of the naysayers that I've read about or have spoken to are persons looking to make investments and expecting high, short-term returns. We've become an "Instant Gratification" society. Fact is, investing in transportation in most cases won't yield high returns and lately we've even seen trucking and airline companies go belly up.

Gabe, So what if the average person in the public doesn't find an SD70 attractive or a hotshot intermodal gliding by poetic.

My wife looks at me strangely when we're in the car and get stopped at a grade crossing by a train. It's even more fun when her cousin is riding with us. Typical scenario: Here comes a CSX train and we'll start hollering: "O.K! Let's see......an SD70M, SD40-2, GE-9, GE-9, SD50...."No that's an SD60!"....."Nope it's a 50!" "Dude, Look at the grills, it's an SD60!" "I still say that was a 50!"............ My wife just sits wishing that the train would pick up speed! Now that for me is fun! So Gabe, continue to enjoy railfanning and ignore the negative junk. It sure beats vegetating in front of the tube or wasting money on getting drunk at the local pub!

Cheers and Peace!

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe
—although they could probably learn a lot by the way I chose my wine.

Gabe

Exactly...because with wine it comes down to numbers.....if there's going to be a lot of people, then buy box' o wine. If it's just you and the wife.....then something red or white depending on the mood or meal..but make sure it's got a screw on top, case you want to save some for later.

[gabe]

Junctionfan,

I don't think the public waking up one day and deciding to convert all railways to “public walkways” is something about which UP executives wake up in the middle of the night in a cold feverish sweat thinking. I wont pretend I know whether this could be done in Canada, but I can think of at least three legal reasons this couldn't be done in the United States, even if the entire public of the United States decided to take one big acid trip to come to such a laughable conclusion.

I read your post carefully; I don't feel as though you gave my post the same courtesy, as you seemed to completely ignore the gravamen of my point: the inherent differences of the product that railroads sell does not make it amenable to the "glitz" advertising that you describe and works so well for beer.

Even if we could get commercials of trainmasters going around calling fouls on shippers for shipping with UP instead of BNSF like Budweiser and Miller commercials, or “UP Cheap Rates Less Polluting—as opposed to tastes great less filling,” and the public suddenly ooed and aaahhed over railroads like I do over a good micro brew, what would happen next? I am sure scenic railroads would love it, but I don't think the same would be the case for freight railroads.

Advertising of the type you refer to is aimed at impulse buying, those who want to appear fashionable, and decisions that don’t generally receive in depth cost-benefit analysis. Although my faith in business is diminishing, I would hope CEOs of companies make their decisions of how to transport their product in a little bit more complicated way than I do for choosing beer—although they could probably learn a lot by the way I chose my wine.

Gabe

[jockellis]

Well, the name "the Wreck of the Old 97" is taken, but someone might write a tune called "The Crash of the old 98" and have a hit among Microsoft users. Actually, it might be a bigger hit among us Mac users.
One problem of railroads is that they are now almost invisible since so many grade crossings have been replaced with over and underpasses. And of course, to us old timers, diesels have the all the charisma of a brick.
Railroads do little in the way now of publicity. They seemed to have learned that anonimity is much better in an age of out of control lawsuits. Railroads in the Georgia Railroad Association, which are not class 1s, fight hard to keep an almost invisible profile. I cannot even get any to let me do a coffee mug with their heralds and history. Some feel that if anyone knows about them, they will sue. And if history is any indicator, railroads have been used as a brass ring for many, many greedy Americans and their greedy, greedy lawyers. Mark, I hope you don't mind if I say anything negative about lawyers.
Jock Ellis

[cpbloom]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

"Window has performed an illegal operation and will be shut down"

Maybe the locomotive will run slow because it needs to be defraged.

LOL! [:p][:o)][:)]

[dwil89]

As far as double going to single, The NY Central single-tracked alot of the old West Shore line along the Hudson River in the early 1960's but left sections in, as sidings. CSX is finding out that re-doubletracking the line may be a necessity as traffic has grown significantly since the half dozen to a dozen trains a day in the late 1960's on the River Line to now averaging close to three dozen a day....I can hear the horns from this line in the distance at night from where I live. Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown

[Junctionfan]

Microsoft and the railroad........

Poor engineers who would have to deal with Windows crashing or my personal favourite

"Window has performed an illegal operation and will be shut down"

Maybe the locomotive will run slow because it needs to be defraged.

Ahh......it's fun to jest.[:D]

[Modelcar]

CSXrules....About something to like about the Pa. Turnpike....How about the fact the original part follows approximately the route of the never quite finished South Penn Railroad over and through the mountains on it's way from near Harrisburg to Pgh....

[rob_l]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill

I can't think of a single piece of second main track or double track that they have reduced to single main track in the last 40 years, except for some unimportant bits and pieces here and there. Not on the UP proper. C&NW long before their merger reduced some double-track to single, out in Iowa, but UP put it all back, and better, too. SP pulled some double-track off the Overland Route (Donner, Rose Creek, Lakeside-Ogden), but on a railroad that runs 12-20 trains per day it's a difficult case to say UP needs it now.

If we consider other roads besides the UP, there certainly are a few glaring examples of double cut back to single in busy and growing corridors:

On the BN in the late 80s: north of the Twin Cities (Becker - Big Lake vicinity), and then Spokane - Pasco (one of the paired track lines taken out).

On the CN more recently: some double track in the Canadian Rockies was taken out.

I have a real hard time believing these were wise decisions (in the long run).

I recently heard from UP management about one or two examples of retrenchment that they now regret, but they escape me right now. In general, I think you are correct, UP has been much more resistant than most to reducing track capacity.

And I agree about the SP case. They needed that track on the Sunset Route a lot more than they needed it on the Overland Route. That was really a case of a poor RR redeploying assets where they were more urgently needed, rather than outright elimination of track capacity.

Best regards,

Rob L.

[CSXrules4eva]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dwil89

Well, the Railroads will never regain the stature they had with the public up until the mid-20th Century..especially Passenger Service....Before the Interstate Highway System was started back in the 1930's, and before the revolution in air travel, the Railroad was the way to travel, and to move freight. Just watch any old Railroad Promotional Film from the 1940's.....Now, with Interstate Highways getting clogged with Trucks, the trend in some ways may begin to reverse itself, as Intermodal traffic is seeing large growth on Railroads but it will never be like it was in the'Good Old Days' when roads like the Pennsy were at the top of their game.....Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown

YES those were the good old days when rail transportation dominated all other modes of transportation. Unfortunitly, I wasn't living or should I say born then. :( I hate interstates, and turnpikes. I live about 15mins from many surounding interstates and one PA trunpike, oh they get on my nervous. The only thing I like about the PA turnpike is that at the Willow Grove exit, it follows NS mailine traffic, ex PRR tracks.

Oh as for Microsoft, they better not touch any railroad out there. I don't care if it's a shortline, or a class one. However, there are exceptions. Microsoft may only collaborate w/ a railroad to develop or upgrade a train simulation game. LOL.

[Modelcar]

....And Dave, understand...about improvements in highways back then, even local county roads being paved getting folks out of the mud, etc...

[Modelcar]

....I understand from a railfan point of view the railroad doesn't have the aurora in the community it once did..."Down at the railroad depot".....point of attraction, gathering, town center point of comings and goings....I personally headed off to war by first stepping on a train in Johnstown, Pa. as did many others....Changing to a troop train in Chicago I guess it was union station for the trip to Seattle....
No one would like to have that center of transportation being again at such locations as I would. But we don't have it anymore....Our times are different now. But....from what figures I seem to read and be aware of, the class one's haul more tonnage now than ever before. So maybe we can take a bit of comfort that, that being true, maybe it holds a hope that more railshipments will come with our changing transportation needs...Unclogging highways, intermodule shipping expanding, cleaner processes of using coal to produce electricy and more....We can hope.

[bobwilcox]

Advertising does not make sense for the railroads. Public relations does make sense.

Advertising does not make sense because the typical Class I will have about 80% of its stock held by 250-300 investors. About 80% of its revenue will come from 800-1,000 customers. Their are better ways to get your message across than mass advertising. My customers each paid the UP something in the mid eight figures a year for service. It makes more sense to deliver the message in person than run an add on TV in Houston.

The recent UP's media campaign was aimed mostly at employees with heavy ad buys in places like Omaha, St. Louis, Houston, Little Rock and North Platte. This fits it with their mission statement:

"Union Pacific is committed to be a company where:
our customers want to do business,
our employees are proud to work,
and shareholder value is created."

Notice that nothing is said about the general public or The Faithful. However, as railroads start to think about going after cheap government money they need to start looking at the public as a potental investor. This is where good public relations could pay off in billions for capital investment.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

As far as you saying that advertising isn't the key, consider this.

If UP et all didn't advertise to sell the importance of the railroad, wouldn't the general public be more incline to say to heck with rail and try to convert all lines into bike paths or something else that they thought was more important?

IMO the advertising they do is largely aimed at existing and potential investors and shippers with general public name recognition being secondary. The NS & UP commercials are most common on CNBC and other business news shows. Ad agencies and networks sell packages of channels and times based on demographics, so some of the ads also show up on regular news & some entertainment programs of the affiliated networks. Most of the cost is in producing the commercial, so once you have it and pay to run it in the target market, running it in other secondary markets is fairly inexpensive.

But I really doubt you'll see UP or NS ads on major event braodcasts like the Superbowl or World Series. Amtrak did a really smart move IMO in having an ad for the Acela behind the plate in Fenway at the ALCS. That targets both New York and Boston consumers plus gets some national recognition.

For freight though, most consumers don't know or don't care. They give it to USPS, UPS, or FedEx(ground or air) and it's the people at those companies that determine what goes by rail. Consumers are more concerned with lost or damaged goods, tracking, convenience, etc. It's a little like buying a dishwasher. It may be made in USA, but few consumers are going to research if the steel is domestic or imported.

[cpbloom]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe

Suddenly, I just don't feel as though my passion for trains is that important to the public anymore.[sigh]

Gabe

I don't think non-railfans have ever understood our passion for trains and railroads.

[dwil89]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

...Dave....Turnpikes and Parkways, but not interstates in the 30's.....They were started in the mid 50's.

Well, I used the wrong terminology there, I should have said. "before the vast improvements in the Nation's highway system began in the 1930's, followed by the beginning of the Interstate Highway System in the 1950's"........... At any rate...FDR's 'New Deal' started alot of the Highway Improvements that would eventually create a viable alternative to railroad passenger and freight business..... Dave Williams