That station should have outlasted The PR by hundreds of years. I can only paraphrase...but how did Vince Scully put it..."Where we once entered like Kings, we now scurry like rats".
Whole generations were intimate with that place. The documentary is short but has some great wisdom.....Future generations will judge us not by the monuments we built, but by those we tore down. :-(
Electroliner 1935When one looks at the enormity of what the PRR built when they put six tunnels under the rivers, building Hell Gate Bridge, and Sunnyside yard, as well as Penn Station and the post office, it is of such a magnitude that not many projects equal or exceed it.
Would be interesting to find out whether that investment was ever close to being recovered over the many years of passenger service (incl. mail, express, etc.), or not. Probabaly would take a Ph.D. thesis and a lot of assumptions - similiar to today's debates about Amtrak's costs and "profitability" - to figure that out.
- Paul North.
Paul_D_North_Jr Electroliner 1935 When one looks at the enormity of what the PRR built when they put six tunnels under the rivers, building Hell Gate Bridge, and Sunnyside yard, as well as Penn Station and the post office, it is of such a magnitude that not many projects equal or exceed it. Over 100 years ago, with the equipment and techniques of the day, and entirely with the railroad's own money, too. Would be interesting to find out whether that investment was ever close to being recovered over the many years of passenger service (incl. mail, express, etc.), or not. Probabaly would take a Ph.D. thesis and a lot of assumptions - similiar to today's debates about Amtrak's costs and "profitability" - to figure that out. - Paul North.
Electroliner 1935 When one looks at the enormity of what the PRR built when they put six tunnels under the rivers, building Hell Gate Bridge, and Sunnyside yard, as well as Penn Station and the post office, it is of such a magnitude that not many projects equal or exceed it.
Over 100 years ago, with the equipment and techniques of the day, and entirely with the railroad's own money, too.
One could probably make the argument that investing in all those projects as well as the electrification from New York to DC and Harrisburg were the proximate cause to the PRR's failing financial position entering into the PC fiasco.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACDOne could probably make the argument that investing in all those projects as well as the electrification from New York to DC and Harrisburg were the proximate cause to the PRR's failing financial position entering into the PC fiasco.
But one has to wonder how the area would have grown and what might have been done to serve the intercity and commuter needs of the area (New Jersey and Manhatten) had not the Pennsy done it.
The federal and state governments have been quite content to squable over the costs to just maintain what the PRR built. Let alone improve upon it. Burnham said make no little plans. The PRR sure heeded that sentient. Of course, back when they made them they had an almost monopoly on freight which could be used to justify their plans. But the ICC made them keep their rates high to "Protect" the truck lines allowing that freight to migrate toward the trucks but that is an old thread.
I disagree. I am certain that the PRR realized a decent return on its investment in the overall of these facilities, because of wartime traffic. Hungerford, in a TRAINS column around 1945, made the point that without the electrification, PRR could not have handled the freight and passenger traffic it did, and even that VE day would not have come as fast because of delays in sending material and troops overseas. Pasengerwise there was never a timje in my memory that Penn Station was closed because of too much traffic, an event that happened once or twice in one or another of the Chicago stations. One could always depend on the ability to board a PRR non-reserved passenger train going where one wished to go. Many times one would have to stand, but one could get on. Passengerwise the electrification was particularly important in the NY - Washington corridor, allowing consists to shuttle back and forth like subway trains, with the GG-1s just moved from one end of the train to the other, and away they go, with possibly every third round trip visiting Sunnyside for cleaning and restocking. This could not have been done with steam.
Electroliner 1935But one has to wonder how the area would have grown and what might have been done to serve the intercity and commuter needs of the area (New Jersey and Manhattan) had not the Pennsy done it.
Playing devil's advocate ... perhaps quite a bit better.
Assume for the moment that the troubles with the tubes 'breathing' had turned out to be insurmountable. The alternative -- done and priced out multiple times -- was a muitiple-railroad bridge to Manhattan, for example Lindenthal's proposal of 1916. A second alternative, for through traffic, would have involved a bridge at the Manhattan Valley, perhaps transferring 'down' to the platforms at 125th St. on the East Side, and then continuing on to Long Island and a 'short left turn' to what is now the Hell Gate route, access to Poughkeepsie as an alternative trans-Hudson crossing, etc.
These would inherently have allowed freight service and probably high-wide movements easily, and would have easily supported more than four tracks instead of rat-scuttling bores with mountain grades.
Electrification of services here would have been comparatively simple, and my guess is that at least several minutes' time would be saved with quicker acceleration, less headway between trains, etc. We can also speculate how today's traffic would be accommodated by some of the proposals that had up to 12 tracks across the bridge, diverging to respective railroads' properties then but relatively easily redirected to a number of strategic 'mode transfer points' now...
Meanwhile, without the tube there would probably have been somewhat greater emphasis on providing proper highway connections on the Manhattan side to multiple road tunnels earlier than the Holland or Lincoln were actually built, and perhaps with more tube lanes and better clearances than built. That would vastly improve actual service to New York hotels, and perhaps a range of business destinations, via a B&O bus-like service conducted with the equivalent of Nite Coaches equipped partially as parlor cars, earlier than the time those things began to be developed and were nipped in the bud earlier by Missouri and other highway departments (or the likes of Robert Moses). I for one would prefer a one-seat ride to a train via a good bus or railroad-supported car service to a one-seat ride in a taxi and subsequent long Red Cap schlep down those ridiculous stairs to my train, whether or not the passengers from Boston and New England found it more convenient to ride through underground...
Don't forget coal trains ran daily thru Penn Station at night all during WWII and a few years afterward.
Lack of gauntlet tracks and clearance restrictions prohibited other freight trains.
Daveklepper- I'm sure you had spent time at Penn Station through the years and saw the best and worst of things. What is your take on the destruction of Penn Station?
Terribly unhappy. Even to actual tears! But then there was so much else that made me unhappy.
Should I list them? Not only railfanwise, which is what I would be restricted to for listing, but also politically and with regard to religion, which I would not include in a list on this Forum but would restrict to email corresponance at my email address daveklepper@yahoo.com.
Thanks Dave .. I will write To you.. Would love to hear our take on things
I love looking at those old train Pictures/Videos from 1930-1950.
Man.....the girls/women REALLY looked good, didn't they.? Hats, dresses and gloves..... they were "all" so thin and attractive.
kenny dorham they were "all" so thin and attractive.
No McDonalds back then.
kenny dorham[snipped - PDN] . . . Man.....the girls/women REALLY looked good, didn't they.? Hats, dresses and gloves..... they were "all" so thin and attractive.
Yes, especially the people traveling first class generally dressed well, and even some who could not afford first class didnot look as though they had just come from work.
In the fifties, David P. Morgan commented that many of the people riding the Silver Meteor were wearing sports clothes. In the same time period, the UP had two ads that showed passengers in domes--and it was easy to see which was the coach dome and which was the first class dome.
For some several years now, I have been almost the only passenger on board with a tie on. Six years ago, as my wife and I were in the first class waiting room in New Orleans before boarding #58, a woman came in wearing an evening dress (had she not been home since a party the night before?).
What some people wear, especially in coach, gives rise to wonder if they have any decent clothing at all.
Johnny
Yeah.....I was not intending to be snobby or judgmental. I see no reason to get dressed up for a train or airplane. Shorts and T-Shirts is fine with me.....but if a guy wants to wear a tie, and a gal wants to wear a dress and hat.......I am all for that as well.
best
Nothing like flying next to a guy wearing shorts! C'mon!
Talk about dress code or lack of: The airline night coach from LAX to ATL was notorious for being known for passengers worse than a Greyhound bus. Now same time night coach SFO - ATL had much higher class of passengers/
blue streak 1 Talk about dress code or lack of: The airline night coach from LAX to ATL was notorious for being known for passengers worse than a Greyhound bus. Now same time night coach SFO - ATL had much higher class of passengers/
Considering that it may well be some of the same passengers, maybe they get "gentrified" while they're in Georgia...
We usually don't get folks dressed to the nines (other than the occasional wedding), but certain social groups are usually a step above casual - the women in dresses (long) and the men in sports shirts - generally buttoned all the way up.
Aside from that, we get all sorts...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Miningman Nothing like flying next to a guy wearing shorts! C'mon!
Who The F would care if they sat next to somebody wearing shorts.....what would you do, jump from the plane.?
The Western world is a much more 'casual' place when it comes to dress than it was half a century ago. It is what it is.
kenny dorhamWho The F would care if they sat next to somebody wearing shorts.....what would you do, jump from the plane.?
Depends - does he have knobby knees and really hairy legs?
Look at pictures of people on the street back then, even people in soup kitchens. The men all wore ties. I've seen pictures of a model train club in the 30s shown in MR and same thing, ties on. Remember Paul Muni in "I was a Fugitive From a Chain Gang?" At the very end when he was down and out, he wore a tie.
54light15The men all wore ties.
And most of them wore hats (of the fedora or derby variety, etc, not baseball caps).
To Steve B500- Replying/Rebuttal to your March 5th posting. Meant to write earlier but little free time lately. I appreciate your correction and pointing out of some generalities that I overzealously attributed to Staurt Sauders. In that regard you are correct.
In a "what really happened" and "who's to blame" rebuttal I would like to point out and mention the following, all of it now in the historical record and accessible to all.
Saunders was chairman of the Penn Central until very shortly before it filed for bankruptcy. More on that a bit later. He returned to private law practice and worked as a financial consultant. (my own thoughts whisper are you kidding me, and I have known some pretty seedy financial consultants, unfortunately after the fact).
He is, according to written history, better known as The Vandal of Penn Station. Under his rule and accountability "Penn Station in NYC was callously razed, an indelible act of grand vandalism that has lastingly scared the sensibilities of every resident of NYC and art lovers across the entire world. Sauders saw to it that he could declare it derelict and pull it down. Saunders has forever registered his name in the annals of the great vandals of art history." So there is that...he could have saved it and I'm certain federal, state, city, and private monies could easily have been raised and tax relief granted to restore the building instead of declaring it derelict. Especially at that level he was at, in the circles of society and power brokers in politics he associated with. So his sensibilities lay with money, money, money, a quick buck.
Previous to this he served as President as the N&W from 1958-1963 where he immediately initiated the conversion from steam to diesel and ending abruptly the companies distinction as the nations last steam railroad. The N&W was quite happy and successful with steam and certainly would have retained steam for some time. Who knows what advances and efficiencies could have come out of that as the N&W was by far the leader and innovator in steam maintenance.
Less than 5 years as President of N&W is a short period of time. Besides removing all steam he built a new coal dock,...a no brainer.
In his autobiography, published privately, that he left to his family only, he blamed the bankruptcy of the Penn Central on "the many years it took to consummate the merger and that the morale of both railroads was badly disrupted and they were faced with unimaginable problems which were insurmountable".
Does that make any sense at all? If it took such a long time to get to the merger then obviously you had plenty of time to avoid all these insurmountable problems. This is like saying the Titanic sunk because it took so long to get there and we had too much time to think about it. As to the morale issue well, he fired most of the Trainmasters, Transportation Superintendents, Division Superintendents and General Managers well before the bankrupcy ensuring that these positions were held by employees with less than years experience on the job as the bankruptcy came. ( see Wanswheel document posted on this forum discussion). You think the employees morale was boosted by widespread firings of the experienced managers, the destruction of Penn Staion ( symbolic in the minds of employees for sure), the deliberate and casual non planning that went into the newly formed Penn Central and the reminder of the killing of steam on Americas last and successful steam railroad. I don't think so! Employees must have lived in fear day to day. He bailed out of Penn Central as it went down, like a rat or a certain Captain of a cruise ship. This guy was Stalin and ISIS rolled into one. He fooled many that's for sure.
Lastly he was among a group of former directors and officers who paid out $12 million ( massive dollars for the sixties, let alone individuals) in a settlement to end litigation from lawsuits " accusing Mr. Saunders of dereliction of duty and responsibility for issuing false financial statements and misleading proxy material over a period of years". Quite the character.
Well gee whiz, he was a common crook. In a pin striped suit who cared for nothing but the almighty buck lining his own pockets. A crony capitalist, destroyer of things good, families, art, legacies, you name it. Then his last words were "I didn't do it, not my fault" along with the stupidest reasons and deflections possible.
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