As I drive around the country I always try to think - What is the economic engine that created this town; What is the economic engine that keeps it alive today; Will the economic engine continue to support it into the future?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Murphy Siding Did the railroad go away because the towns dried up, or did the town dry up because the railroad was taken away? How is it in other states? Is losing the railroad the kiss of death for a small, rural town?
No money, no town, no town and no money, no railroad.
As the song from Cabaret says,
http://www.stlyrics.com/lyrics/cabaret/money.htm
In the county where I live there never has been other then a couple of small logging rail roads. They made no difference when gone.
Ken G Price My N-Scale Layout
Digitrax Super Empire Builder Radio System. South Valley Texas Railroad. SVTRR
N-Scale out west. 1996-1998 or so! UP, SP, Missouri Pacific, C&NW.
It was pretty much the same north of us as well. As most manufacturers of furniture moved to places that were larger in size many small centers also discovered the car and began to move to where the jobs were. Then the same thing started happening to agriculture as well. Bigger elevators made it harder for smaller centers to do much business.
The only rail line that exists now is the Goderich and Exeter RR north of Stratford now.
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
tree68 Plus I'd have my buggy to fill full of whatever I bought.
Not having the ability to to carry things and also schedules is a problem today with a lot of mass transit.
The last town I lived in has pretty good commuter bus service to the city. It wasn't much good for shopping. You could only carry a few small light items and best limit your shopping to a small part of the city that was not a prime shopping area.
The town my sister lived in (the same distance in another would require a two day round trip by bus. Both towns are a little over 1-hour auto drive from the city.
I now live in an even smaller communty 35 miles from my last town. Bus service is two round trips a day, three days a week and not scheduled to alllow commuting to a job. Also I live 4.5 miles up a mountain road from the end of the line.
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
DSchmittIn the Railroad days a round trip to the city from these towns (although the trains were faster than the horse and autos on the poor roads), took two days if one wanted to accomplish anything (leave for the city on the morning of one day and return the evening of the next day) due to the train schedules.
And that alone probably did as much to kill rail travel on a local basis as anything.
Back in the day even a horse-n-buggy trip to the "big city" from where I live would have taken just three hours each way and covered around 15 miles. Plus I'd have my buggy to fill full of whatever I bought.
A train trip to the same location would have required a hour's ride to the nearest station (seven miles), and been subject to the aforementioned schedules. Depending on which station I left from (I'd have had a choice of two), the trip might have even involved a change of trains.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
dakotafredGood for bedrooms but usually bad for retail and retail jobs, as the commuters get used to also shopping in the big town.
Several towns I have lived in actually had an increase in jobs because of a large increase in the number of businesses (both local owned and national chains) and jobs although it took a number of years. They draw customers from further out and the locals shop there too. Even the people who commute to the city find it more convenient to shop locally.
Admittedly they are a small minority of the towns and are fortunate to be in close proximity to the city. Although they started as fairly isolated farm towns and became bedroom communities, eventually more local people got work in them than commuted.
In the Railroad days a round trip to the city from these towns (although the trains were faster than the horse and autos on the poor roads), took two days if one wanted to accomplish anything (leave for the city on the morning of one day and return the evening of the next day) due to the train schedules.
dakotafredI suspect many of the larger towns are ticketed for retail oblivion.
It's happening, one store at a time. Case in point is Radio Shack, which used to have a decent selection of electronics parts. Today a visit to the parts bin is a crap shoot at best, at the one store in the area that's still open.
As you say - everything is available on-line - delivered to your door.
I would submit that one of the last items to disappear from local retail stores will be clothing, simply because sometimes it's necessary to try it on...
Big-box retailers have wreaked havoc with old downtowns. Many communities have tried (and some quite successfully) to turn their downtowns into destinations, with boutique shops and restaurants. My old home town of Milford, MI is a case in point. Of course, you don't often see the "locals" there - it's folks from out of town.
I've got the feeling we ain't seen nothing yet.
I live in Bismarck now, with lots of retail, but shop more and more on-line. I get tired of going to my local Target, CVS, et. al., and finding they have lazily failed to stock, and I must go away emptyhanded. On the Internet, they never run out.
I was always sentimental about shopping where you live, the colorful old downtowns I grew up with, and all that -- but convenience matters even to retired people. So, after a while, the heck with it.
I suspect many of the larger towns, too, are ticketed for retail oblivion.
Murphy Siding- You are correct...have been to both several times and the time frame is about the same. Native copper deposits in the UP of Michigan are long gone as is the silver in Cobalt. Both gave rise to world famous mining schools, Michigan Tech in Houghton and the Haileybury School of Mines in Haileybury, Ontario ( one town over from Cobalt). Both of them are built at the top of huge hills and walking up a gazillion steps to the main doors was a feat unto itself.
Cobalt looks like some of the places I've been in the UP of Michigan that were really hopping about 100 years ago.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy Siding- Thanks for the question...in the past the answer was yes, a mine closure would almost in all cases signal the end of a town. Some hung on in a serious state of decline. A good example would be Cobalt, Ont. It still exists and is hanging on as a historic site and a sort of "romantic" place to live but even the Ontario Northland Railway doesn't stop for anything there any longer. Everyone mostly works somewhere else..there is very little there. ( a magnificent huge railway station lies vacant and empty but maintained ).
The past 20 years have seen changes to obtaining a Licence to Mine, a National Instrument 43-101, which along with environmental and mine closure issues, deals with social responsibilities and the establishment of long term viability for any nearby town, well ahead of any granting of the licence.
Since any economic mineral deposit these days is in the hundreds of billions of dollars range it is only reasonable and quite attainable and avoids the usual boom/bust cycle. Nothing can alter market forces but planning well ahead with all stakeholders and shareholders is being done very effectively. In the long term everyone wins. A great recent example of this is Snow Lake, Manitoba.
DSchmitt CSSHEGEWISCH The automobile and paved highways did more to kill off small towns than railroad abandonments ever could. While true in many, perhaps most cases, they had the opposite affect on some small towns. They became thriving bedroom communities for nearby cities as it became possible to commute in a reasonable time. Some also developed substancial commercial areas and even industrial areas employing locals.
CSSHEGEWISCH The automobile and paved highways did more to kill off small towns than railroad abandonments ever could.
While true in many, perhaps most cases, they had the opposite affect on some small towns. They became thriving bedroom communities for nearby cities as it became possible to commute in a reasonable time. Some also developed substancial commercial areas and even industrial areas employing locals.
Good for bedrooms but usually bad for retail and retail jobs, as the commuters get used to also shopping in the big town. Then they cry when the lumber yard, hardware store and even the last grocery store closes.
Watched it unfold in a town that had good retail as late as the '80s, but has virtually nothing today. Some of the cheapskates even bought their beer in the big town, but thought the local joints should stay open so they had some place to park their elbows.
railroads bring jobs
jobs bring prosperity
prosperity means people buy cars and don't use the railroad anymore.
We have something similar here, northwest of Toronto,
The Buttonville airport was built out in the country where it wouldn't bother anybody.
That brought jobs and people and houses.
The people in the houses don't like airplane noise.
The airport must close.
SALfan Globalization was a factor in the withering of small towns, or at least my hometown. When I was growing up, every small town in south GA had a sewing factory, built when garment production moved south. These small operations made it possible for many small farms to make a go of it because the wife worked there and that income paid some of the bills. When garment production moved overseas jobs in the sewing factories dried up, and the income from the farm wasn't enough for the families to live on. The land was sold and the remaining farms got bigger, the children left (if they hadn't already), and the town withered on the vine.
Globalization was a factor in the withering of small towns, or at least my hometown. When I was growing up, every small town in south GA had a sewing factory, built when garment production moved south. These small operations made it possible for many small farms to make a go of it because the wife worked there and that income paid some of the bills. When garment production moved overseas jobs in the sewing factories dried up, and the income from the farm wasn't enough for the families to live on. The land was sold and the remaining farms got bigger, the children left (if they hadn't already), and the town withered on the vine.
Keep in mind that all those sewing operations cropped up when the textile industry moved from the Northeast/New England to the sunbelt to be closer to the raw materials (cotton) and have access to cheaper labor although honestly that may have happened even earlier than the 20th century had the Civil war and reconstruction not occurred...
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
John G Kneiling had an interesting column which served as a commentary on small-town America, using the discontinuance of the "Colorado Eagle" as a starting point. Inhabitants of many of these small towns protested the discontinuance of the "Eagle" based on its past service, which nobody was using anymore. When the local store told a customer "I can order it for you", the customer would drive to a town where a store had that item in stock. The automobile and paved highways did more to kill off small towns than railroad abandonments ever could.
Miningman- Does the closing of a mine typically mean the kiss of death to any nearby town whose only source of income was the mine? What about any rail line put in to service the mine? Once the mine goes away does everyone else roll up the carpet and go home? On the South Dakota prairies, there is still grain to sell after the railroad leaves. It all goes out on trucks, but since there is still business there, the towns take a long time to whither.
Dakatofred - well thank you very much, nice to hear.
Of course, I should know better, paragraphs it is. While blogging it is too easy to just fire off the thoughts rather than group them.
Thanks for the correction!
Miningman:
I enjoy your posts, as far as I can wade into them without fatigue; but will you please paragraph! Paragraphs are a gift God gave us to make us easier to read and understand.
Well gee, I teach at a college...Mining Engineering and Geology and one of my teaching courses is in economics. Upgrading of skills is constant. New mines, in Canada at least, must have a long term plan in place to keep a town ( if the mine is located nearby ) viable long after the reserves are mined out. Case in point is Snow Lake, Manitoba with the newly discovered Lalor Lake deposit by Hudson Bay Mining & Smelting. Much has been written about the Milwaukee Road and the economic destruction brought about by its (mis)management leading to its demise just as things were getting good. They drooled over the monies the scrap copper would bring in, even as copper prices collapsed and the oil crisis hit, skyrocketing the price of diesel. The many other shenanigans going on had nothing to do with good intentions or thoughts of its employees. Carrier air conditioning tells 400 families that's it's just a business decision while announcing to them it's all over and they are going to Mexico. Inept management? That's my take. Never, ever, will I purchase a Carrier air conditioner. Ridiculous decisions with no thought to the good folks. There was a time when this was not the case and the company saw their role as a lot more than placating Wall St, themselves or a small group of investors. That is the framework of capitalism itself.
mudchicken Vilas, CO was once a town of 1000 plus with 100 saloons on the main drag to serve cowboys from Texas driving cattle north. It got a railroad in 1926, still has one that rarely gets to town and has largely vanished. (Giant lollipops come from there and little else these days. Grain elevator (big one) was idled by the latest drought and two ethanol busts.) Go figger...
Vilas, CO was once a town of 1000 plus with 100 saloons on the main drag to serve cowboys from Texas driving cattle north. It got a railroad in 1926, still has one that rarely gets to town and has largely vanished. (Giant lollipops come from there and little else these days. Grain elevator (big one) was idled by the latest drought and two ethanol busts.)
Go figger...
dakotafred erikem Murphy Siding That kind of reminds me of some town along The Milwaukee Road, in Montana(?) that was a big operation around 1900. It may have been where the steam locomotives were switched out for electric- Marmarth, or something like that? Pictures I've seen posted of that once busy rail yard consist of weeds and foundations. If the town is still there, it's not what it once was. You are thinking of either Marmarth, ND or Melmoth Melstone, MT. The latter was the division point between Miles City and Harlowton in the steam days. Satellite view from Google maps shows the outline of the long gone yards and turntable. Back in the days of the speed surveys in Trains, the freight run from Miles City to Harlowton was one of the fastest freight clocking on the Milwaukee, which implied that Melmoth was not a division point in the diesel era on the Milwaukee. FWIW, Harlowton was the eastern end of the Rocky Mountain electrification. - Erik Marmarth, N.D., surely meets our specs for decline, altho the railroad (Milw. Pacific Coast Extension, now BNSF) never formally left town. Used to be a crew-change point, with a shop and railroad hotel, pop. 1,300 in 1920. But the Milw. closed the shop after a strike in 1922, and it's a rather haunting place today, with the ruins of a lot of big brick buildings downtown and broken glass all over the wide sidewalks, pop. c. 200. You can stay at the old frame railroad hotel, run now by the local historical society and called the Bunkhouse. (But be aware: In the summer, it's sometimes full of paleontologists looking for dinosaur bones and even, these days, oil-field workers; so call ahead.) There's a bar and pretty good restaurant just across the street, and the trains (coal) still rattle through on jointed rail.
erikem Murphy Siding That kind of reminds me of some town along The Milwaukee Road, in Montana(?) that was a big operation around 1900. It may have been where the steam locomotives were switched out for electric- Marmarth, or something like that? Pictures I've seen posted of that once busy rail yard consist of weeds and foundations. If the town is still there, it's not what it once was. You are thinking of either Marmarth, ND or Melmoth Melstone, MT. The latter was the division point between Miles City and Harlowton in the steam days. Satellite view from Google maps shows the outline of the long gone yards and turntable. Back in the days of the speed surveys in Trains, the freight run from Miles City to Harlowton was one of the fastest freight clocking on the Milwaukee, which implied that Melmoth was not a division point in the diesel era on the Milwaukee. FWIW, Harlowton was the eastern end of the Rocky Mountain electrification. - Erik
Murphy Siding That kind of reminds me of some town along The Milwaukee Road, in Montana(?) that was a big operation around 1900. It may have been where the steam locomotives were switched out for electric- Marmarth, or something like that? Pictures I've seen posted of that once busy rail yard consist of weeds and foundations. If the town is still there, it's not what it once was.
That kind of reminds me of some town along The Milwaukee Road, in Montana(?) that was a big operation around 1900. It may have been where the steam locomotives were switched out for electric- Marmarth, or something like that? Pictures I've seen posted of that once busy rail yard consist of weeds and foundations. If the town is still there, it's not what it once was.
You are thinking of either Marmarth, ND or Melmoth Melstone, MT. The latter was the division point between Miles City and Harlowton in the steam days. Satellite view from Google maps shows the outline of the long gone yards and turntable. Back in the days of the speed surveys in Trains, the freight run from Miles City to Harlowton was one of the fastest freight clocking on the Milwaukee, which implied that Melmoth was not a division point in the diesel era on the Milwaukee.
FWIW, Harlowton was the eastern end of the Rocky Mountain electrification.
- Erik
Marmarth, N.D., surely meets our specs for decline, altho the railroad (Milw. Pacific Coast Extension, now BNSF) never formally left town. Used to be a crew-change point, with a shop and railroad hotel, pop. 1,300 in 1920. But the Milw. closed the shop after a strike in 1922, and it's a rather haunting place today, with the ruins of a lot of big brick buildings downtown and broken glass all over the wide sidewalks, pop. c. 200.
You can stay at the old frame railroad hotel, run now by the local historical society and called the Bunkhouse. (But be aware: In the summer, it's sometimes full of paleontologists looking for dinosaur bones and even, these days, oil-field workers; so call ahead.)
There's a bar and pretty good restaurant just across the street, and the trains (coal) still rattle through on jointed rail.
Miningman Simpler yet flawed times? Not elaborate or artificial...easy to understand and deal with. I truly believe that if you could spend a day in, say 1947, or 1952 you would sense and see a dynamic in the railroads and the smaller towns and throughout North America. Social progress, should have been much swifter, even in place long before, but companies did have much more of a purpose than placating shareholders and Wall St. Capitalism really worked for everyone back then. There has always been an investor class that most of us have nothing to do with, seperate from the majority, but everyone was working and made money and the railroads did As well. Would we be better off today if the interurban network was still up and running? It would be seen as environmentally responsible that's for sure. If all the railroads were today as they were in '47 or '52 (without all the mergers), running a combination of effeciient interchange or cooperative run through coast to coast and good levels of feeder service locally, then many smaller towns would be pretty vibrant and desired places to live and prosper. Lots of compedition, many alternatives and routes. Idyllic nonsense? Possibly, but corporate raiders and crony capitalism ruined a lot and we are now stuck with its aftermath. Government housing projects, gangs, breakdown of families, huge debts, welfare. I'll take the railroad staying put in the smaller community, companies socially responsibe with pride, real nation building, and quite possibly something we have lost and not for the better it would seem.
Simpler yet flawed times? Not elaborate or artificial...easy to understand and deal with. I truly believe that if you could spend a day in, say 1947, or 1952 you would sense and see a dynamic in the railroads and the smaller towns and throughout North America. Social progress, should have been much swifter, even in place long before, but companies did have much more of a purpose than placating shareholders and Wall St. Capitalism really worked for everyone back then. There has always been an investor class that most of us have nothing to do with, seperate from the majority, but everyone was working and made money and the railroads did As well. Would we be better off today if the interurban network was still up and running? It would be seen as environmentally responsible that's for sure. If all the railroads were today as they were in '47 or '52 (without all the mergers), running a combination of effeciient interchange or cooperative run through coast to coast and good levels of feeder service locally, then many smaller towns would be pretty vibrant and desired places to live and prosper. Lots of compedition, many alternatives and routes. Idyllic nonsense? Possibly, but corporate raiders and crony capitalism ruined a lot and we are now stuck with its aftermath. Government housing projects, gangs, breakdown of families, huge debts, welfare. I'll take the railroad staying put in the smaller community, companies socially responsibe with pride, real nation building, and quite possibly something we have lost and not for the better it would seem.
I dislike 'crony capitalism' as much as any. However, to blame the retrenchment of the rails and abandonment of 1000s of miles and stations ignores both history and economics. Perhaps you could take a class at your local community college?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
jeffhergert Might you mean Melstone, MT? The away from home terminal for both Miles City and Harlowton crews. The MILW started running through Melstone in April of 1972.
Might you mean Melstone, MT? The away from home terminal for both Miles City and Harlowton crews. The MILW started running through Melstone in April of 1972.
Yes, you are correct. Melmoth was/is the name of an experimental airplane built by Peter Garrison and the subject of many articles and columns in Flying magazine. Had a sort between the headphones when typing Melmoth instead of Melstone.
Melstone was a couple of miles away from where the PCE crossed the Musselshell river, which was at the low point between the summit at Loweth and the summit at Sumatra.
Interesting series of drawings.
I suspected there was more to Robert Crumb than "Mr. Natural."
Wiz, regarding drawings of a grade crossing over time, could this be it?
http://www.kunstler.com/Grunt_Crumbshorthistory.html
cx500Often it was a vicious circle, but I think mostly the need for the railroad (and village) faded while the railroad was still in place. Rail abandonment was highly regulated and difficult to achieve as long as there was even a trickle of traffic. . . . [snipped - PDN]
Plus, most of those branch lines were 'sunk investment', and usually did not need much or any additional investment to keep struggling along (if it did, that was usually enough reason to doom it). So the marginal/ 'out-of-pocket' cost for the railroad to keep going was essentially crews, fuel, and real estate taxes. As a result, the line wouldn't be abandoned until just about all the traffic was gone. (There was an article in Trains a few years back about an SP line that had only 1 or 2 cars a year. When someone looked into that, those were just the railroad's MOW cars of ballast to fill in the occasional washouts . . . ).
- Paul North.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.