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Ask for directions at a gas station or what?

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Posted by Kozzie on Wednesday, December 1, 2004 11:36 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C

There was an infamous incident in Sydney when the Indian Pacific, operated by Australian National at that time, had been diverted via the Southern line (think a diversion of 400 miles) and was routed into Sydney via the "East Hils Line". To cross back to the normal route, the train had to cross via a tunnel under eight tracks at Redfern, the first station out from Sydney Terminal, which this crew had never done.
Now the really bad news was that the signalman wasn't expecting a diverted express train (two 3000HP cab units and fourteen cars) and set the route up for a suburban electric train to go to Bondi Junction. This involved diverting the train to the right and through a tunnel, rather than to the left and through a tunnel. Remember that the train crew didn't know this route, but they had been told about a tunnel, so they entered the tunnel and reached their approximate destination, but in an underground station about fifty feet below the platform they were aiming for and suitable for only six of their fourteen cars. By this time, the crew were aware that something was wrong, but their radios didn't work in the underground section. Management had the train stopped at Martin Place, the first place with crossovers, cancelled the extensive underground service and replaced it with buses for the day while the train was broken up and brought out. I assume it was several hours late departing Sydney by the time they got it back out. This was the equivalent of an Amtrak train finding its way into the Chicago Subway!

You can't rely on the interlockings being set correctly!

Peter


Peter - that's an absorbing account! [:)] When did this drama happen? It can't have been that long ago because the East Hills line was only relatively recently (10 years ago??) extended to connect through to the Sydney-Melbourne main line (I think near Glenfield station)?

I hope Quentin sees your post - he's said before he's intereseted in downunder stuff and I reckon he would enjoy it [:)]

Dave
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 1, 2004 10:29 PM
Dear Mr. Hemphill,
Thank you very much for clearing that up for me. However, I still have some questions.

Looking at a signal aspect chart in the Altamont Press Timetable (California-15th edition), I noticed that UP (which I am pretty sure operates under GCOR) has an aspect (Diverging Clear Limited) which would dictate speed through a turnout:
Diverging Clear Limited is defined as, "Proceed on diverging route. Speed through turnout must not exceed 40 MPH." The aspect is red over flashing green or red over flashing green over red. Am I mistaken in believing this to be speed signaling?

Secondly, the chart mentions a "Plate C." It is defined as "Plate C: Passenger Trains; when next signal displays an aspect more favorable than Diverging Approach or Approach, the requirement to proceed prepared to stop at second signal no longer applies." At the same time, however, I often see "Exceeds plate C" stenciled on freight cars. Are these two related, or just coincidence?

Sincerely, confusedly, and gratefully,
Daniel Parks
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Posted by mvlandsw on Monday, November 29, 2004 1:11 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill

mvlandsw: The signaling modifies the maximum authorized speed for the turnout? I find that difficult to believe. Don't you mean the signaling provides a maximum authorized speed for the diverging route based on track conditions ahead?

I mean, almost ALL signaling will give a different indication over a turnout based on track conditions ahead. For instance, in most CTC installations with a bonded siding, if there's a train in the siding, the home signal gives a red over red, even if the switch is thrown for the siding. If the siding is clear but the switch on the other end is still normal, it gives a red over yellow. If the switch on the other end is reversed and there's nothing in the next main track block after the switch, in some (but not all) systems it will give a red over flashing yellow. If there are two blocks clear, it will give a red over green. However, a 25 mph turnout is always a 25 mph turnout -- the signaling doesn't change that in the slightest. The signaling sets the speed for the track conditions ahead, only. The railroads that except from this arrange the home signal to never give anything better than a red over yellow or red over flashing yellow, to set a speed for the diverging route.

What CSX does, as I read their timetable and rule book, is set the maximum authorized speed for the diverging route signal indication to be the same speed as most of its turnouts will allow, and then it lists the turnouts that are a smaller frog number and thus slower, as exceptions. That's certainly permissible. I'm more used to western railroads, which take the extra safety step of listing every turnout speed in the timetable, separating the turnout speed (which is one thing) from the diverging route speed (which is another). That forces the train crew to pay more attention to learning the territory, in my opinion, rather than just what the signal indications mean.
The highest diverging speed allowed by the signal system matches the design speed of the turnout. This would of course be modified to allow for track occupancy or switch alignment ahead. The exceptions listed in the timetable that I am familiar with are all reductions due to track conditions, not frog number. In the Pittsburgh area there are three that used to be 30 and 45 mph that are now restricted to 10 mph and the alignment has not been changed. It seems to me that having the signal give the speed at each location is safer than having to remember the speed at each switch from the timetable. I have seen some signal rule books that only use a diverging clear or a diverging approach indication for turnouts. This requires you to remember the speed at each location.
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, November 29, 2004 12:14 AM
I'm a bit confused. From what I have read, mostly in Railroad Signaling by Brian Soloman, (speed signaling is predominantly on pages 87-89), speed signaling could dictate the speed through a limited speed turnout (45 mph) by displaying an aspect such as limited clear (red over flashing green, red over flashing green over red, dwarf flashing green, or dwarf flashing green over red); through a medium speed turnout (30 mph) by displaying medium clear (red over green, red over green over red, or dwarf green over flashing red); or through a slow speed turnout (15 mph) by slow clear (red over red over green, dwarf green over red, or dwarf green).

I am confused however, because, according to the definitions of these aspects, they say to proceed at normal speed after clearing all interlocking or spring switches at their dictated speed. However, it would seem to me that this would not include normal crossover switches. All of these aspects and definitions, by the way, are from the seventh edition of the Northeast Operating Rules Advisory Committee's (NORAC's) Color Light Interlocking & ABS Signals, on pages 111-112 of the book.

I am hoping someone can clarify this for me--I am very confused. I am not looking to start an argument, and I appologize if I am in error here.

Sincerely,
Daniel Parks
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Posted by ValleyX on Sunday, November 28, 2004 11:17 PM
On the former B&O portion of CSX, the signal indication governs the speed and the speed of the turnout or crossover is not listed in the timetable unless otherwise provided for. For example, medium clear would permit you to thirty MPH through the turnout or crossover, as medium approach would limit you to thirty, also requiring you to be prepared to stop at the next signal. As slow approach, or slow approach slow would require you to proceed at slow speed approaching the next signal prepared to stop or the next signal proceeding at slow speed. That's the way it is on the portion of CSX I've been operating on for, well, a good many years now.
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Posted by mvlandsw on Sunday, November 28, 2004 7:50 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill

Daniel:

I think your sources have romaniticized the truth. From 1920-1940, before a man could sit on the right side of the cab, he had probably spent two to eight years on the left side of the cab, running the same territory. To get onto the right side of the cab on his own authority, he'd have been coached by an engineer for dozens if not hundreds of trips. By the time he pulled a throttle, he had seen that route more than 1,000 times, on average. I don't think he was unfamiliar with it at that point.

On any line, the timetable governs. It contains all the permanent speed restrictions and the pertinent train handling information. The temporary speed restrictions are issued at the beginning of each tour of duty and he carries those. So he'll hardly be in the dark. It's irrelevant whether the line is signaled or not, as the signals do NOT grant permanent speed restrictions, and the engineer must prove he knows the indications on a written exam and on student trips before he can mark up. The signal indications are all in the rule book, so if he's really in doubt, he can look them up (another reason why the rule book is carried with you.)

All turnout speeds are in the timetable. Speed signaling doesn't give you turnout speeds, it gives you track conditions.

To return to the original question:
1. The engineer must have familiarization trips over a new territory, or a pilot.
2. In terminal areas, the yardmaster or dispatcher will tell you where to go -- you just don't drive blindly down the first track that's open to you.
3. Signals will not be granted to you and power switches will not be lined for you unless you're supposed to go that way (except in the very unusual case of error).
4. When in doubt, everyone goes slow.

Once you are a qualified engineer learming new territory goes quicker than you might think. When I first became an engineer I worked from Connellsvile to New Castle Pa. For this I went through the usual 6 month training after working the route 2 years as a brakeman. When I started working New Castle to Cleveland, Ohio the trainmaster was after me to qualiy after three round trips with a pilot. Same deal when I started going from New Castle to Toledo. For Cumberland Md. to Connellsville I was on my own after 4 trips. The B&O color position light signals DO give you speeds through turnouts. The new signal installed by CSX to replace them also give turnout speeds. Exceptions to the normal turnout speeds given by the signals are the only ones listed in the CSX timetable.
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, November 27, 2004 7:30 PM
Thank God I was in the locomotive mechanical department because you lost me Mark. Never the less is was a great discription.
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, November 27, 2004 5:12 PM
Hey! Thanks everybody! I've often looked down the tracks at grade crossings to see switches going left and right and everywhere else and thought "Man o' man, better them than me." So it turns out it's almost a group effort...

For some reason, I couldn't find this thread yesterday, I thought maybe I was asking for a little too much information (terrorism and all) and it was pulled. So I asked if it was all right to ask! Now I better try to find THAT thread so I can explain myself!
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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, November 26, 2004 10:33 PM
Firstly, [#welcome] to the forums [:)][:D].

Secondly, from what I understand, in the old days of railroads (say, 1930's), only a few trips were all that were required for qualification. On unsignaled lines, and lines without "speed signaling," the engineer needs to be familiar with the route to know the maximum speed he can safely go through a switch at.

Welcome to the forums,
Daniel Parks
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Posted by M636C on Thursday, November 25, 2004 10:20 PM
There was an infamous incident in Sydney when the Indian Pacific, operated by Australian National at that time, had been diverted via the Southern line (think a diversion of 400 miles) and was routed into Sydney via the "East Hils Line". To cross back to the normal route, the train had to cross via a tunnel under eight tracks at Redfern, the first station out from Sydney Terminal, which this crew had never done.
Now the really bad news was that the signalman wasn't expecting a diverted express train (two 3000HP cab units and fourteen cars) and set the route up for a suburban electric train to go to Bondi Junction. This involved diverting the train to the right and through a tunnel, rather than to the left and through a tunnel. Remember that the train crew didn't know this route, but they had been told about a tunnel, so they entered the tunnel and reached their approximate destination, but in an underground station about fifty feet below the platform they were aiming for and suitable for only six of their fourteen cars. By this time, the crew were aware that something was wrong, but their radios didn't work in the underground section. Management had the train stopped at Martin Place, the first place with crossovers, cancelled the extensive underground service and replaced it with buses for the day while the train was broken up and brought out. I assume it was several hours late departing Sydney by the time they got it back out. This was the equivalent of an Amtrak train finding its way into the Chicago Subway!

You can't rely on the interlockings being set correctly!

Peter
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Posted by jeffhergert on Thursday, November 25, 2004 9:57 PM
To remain qualified on a certain territory you must operate over it at least once ever six months. If it has been longer than six months, you need a pilot to guide you.
At Clinton, Iowa I've heard the Proviso based crews talking about where their train is going in Chicago. Not all Chicago bound trains go to the same yard. I forget, may not even know, all the yards, some UP some not, that they can deliver to. Say there is one train that goes to one off-line yard a day. It's possible for someone not to get that train for months on end, while another person gets it often. In a case like that, some one from Chicago may not be familiar with the specific route. Assuming they don't get relieved and have time to deliver, they would get a pilot.
Jeff
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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, November 25, 2004 9:18 PM
Fuzzy,

Although a train may go from Los Angeles to Chicago, the crew changes at many spots along the way. (This makes it entirely different than a truck that may make the same trip with the same driver.)

So basically, the engineer who pulls into Chicago with the train from LA possibly has spent his entire career within a couple hundred miles of Chicago (and very well may live there), so he probably knows it like the back of his hand. (And like others have said, he is required to have been qualified on that territory.)

Judd
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Posted by DSchmitt on Thursday, November 25, 2004 8:56 PM
Actually the switches are lined for you by others and you just go where they take you. You are, however, supposed to know the way so you are doing so you can take proper action if a mistake is made.

I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.

I don't have a leg to stand on.

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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, November 25, 2004 8:19 PM
If you are a qualified engineer on those tracks you have been over them before and know your way. You must pass a test on physical characteristics of the tracks you operate over to be qualified as an engineer over that trackage. This includes separate qualification for foreighn railroads if you operate on their track.

LC
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Ask for directions at a gas station or what?
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, November 25, 2004 8:02 PM
I know practically nothing about railroads, so please suffer a stupid question:
Lets say I'm an engineer. I arrive at a place like Chicago- how do I navigate that maze of tracks to get where I have to go?

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