http://cookcountyrecord.com/stories/510648137-canadian-pacific-asks-court-to-block-tollway-from-taking-land-at-bensenville-rail-yard-for-elgin-o-hare-project#sthash.c8TZBsGA.gbpl&st_refDomain=m.facebook.com&st_refQuery=
This will be interesting to watch. Is there any list of applicable precedent, or briefs, so far?
(Where is the 'popcorn' emoticon when you need it?)
This situation is symptomatic of the lessoning clout railroads have, especially the cause and effect result of the railroads having less and less employees. Nevertheless, the Illinois Tollway people don’t have a prayer trying to bully its way past federal jurisdiction, and are probably fools because they undoubtedly will get themselves fired for grossly wasting the taxpayers' money on a lost cause.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
I agree with KP. Dislodging CP against their will with a state agency attempting to do the dislodging would have about the same success as the state agency trying to build a bridge over a waterway at a location that would take out a lock and dam on a navigable waterway.
If there is any change in Bensenville at all, it will be because CP negotiated a deal where they are made whole elsewhere in terms of operations plus getting paid a boatload of money in multiples of 9 figures for the real estate.
More than likely, the Illinois Toll Road will build their project around or over Bensenville Yard.
And the way construction works in Chicagoland, that 8 year construction is likely to take much longer and come in well over the original estimate.
I'd like to think that this is a little political two-step by the toll road people:
1) We need room for an interchange, construction storage, etc.
2) Let's present this as going on "obsolescent" railroad property (pointing to all sorts of useful historical 'examples' like Oak Island) so we don't have to discuss 'taking' of voter... ahem, private property.
3) We get slapped down by the Feds et al., as we clearly understood was likely. But hey, we tried, and very publically sued and went on record as trying.
4) Somewhat less difficulty when the time comes to dispossess the little guys... and plausible denial about all the cost 'wasted' on lawyers; we'll attribute that to deep-pockets CP money and all that usual capitalist jazz.
The severance most likely will not get past the Illinois Commerce Commission/ ICC, much less go through STB. Canadian Pacific's Public Projects Engineers will become warriors with cause on this one. Any attempt at "reasonable accommodation" will be met with sticker shock and horror.
(Nothing unusual for highway engineer bubbas to totally mis-understand railroad criteria where highways & railroads overlap. This is where you find out where Transportation Departments are almost always nothing but rubber-tired "bus people" with an arrogance that takes a beating when the 800 pound gorrilla in the room discovers that it isn't alone.)....About 3 years ago, IL-DOT lost most of the folks that had a brain and any experience in a personel purge (dumbsizing) caused by ILLINOIS' financial mess.
K. P. Harrier This situation is symptomatic of the lessoning clout railroads have, especially the cause and effect result of the railroads having less and less employees. Nevertheless, the Illinois Tollway people don’t have a prayer trying to bully its way past federal jurisdiction, and are probably fools because they undoubtedly will get themselves fired for grossly wasting the taxpayers' money on a lost cause.
Illinois politicians never get fired. They go directly to ------------------
You guessed it.
Said tongue-in-cheek.
Norm
Norm48327 K. P. Harrier This situation is symptomatic of the lessoning clout railroads have, especially the cause and effect result of the railroads having less and less employees. Nevertheless, the Illinois Tollway people don’t have a prayer trying to bully its way past federal jurisdiction, and are probably fools because they undoubtedly will get themselves fired for grossly wasting the taxpayers' money on a lost cause. Illinois politicians never get fired. They go directly to ------------------ You guessed it. Said tongue-in-cheek.
Do they pass Go?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD Norm48327 K. P. Harrier This situation is symptomatic of the lessoning clout railroads have, especially the cause and effect result of the railroads having less and less employees. Nevertheless, the Illinois Tollway people don’t have a prayer trying to bully its way past federal jurisdiction, and are probably fools because they undoubtedly will get themselves fired for grossly wasting the taxpayers' money on a lost cause. Illinois politicians never get fired. They go directly to ------------------ You guessed it. Said tongue-in-cheek. Do they pass Go?
Johnny
Directly to......Washington
Link to Tollway Map: http://www.illinoistollway.com/construction-and-planning/projects-by-roadway/elgin-o-hare-western-access
at: http://www.illinoistollway.com/move-illinois
Approx. location: N 41 56.967' W 87 54.704'
I have to wonder what the Tollway is thinking here. Does it have incompetent advisors, who don't know that the STB will supersede their local action ? Or are they hoping for a Federal amendment to the STB Act to preclude that and give their project special status ? (If so, maybe they waited too long - the Chicago-oriented politicians won't have too much longer in Washington, D.C., and the opposition party controls both houses of Congress.) Or - as the linked article mentions near the end - are they intending to make the STB and CP the scapegoats when the proposed route has to be altered to avoid CP's yard ? Or are they hoping to cut a deal to allow reconfiguration of the yard (and perhaps some improvements, maybe on a CREATE project ?) to allow the Tollway to build over the yard by "air rights" ? Having a 'roof' overhead of the tracks and yard wouldn't be a bad thing for CP in a Chicago winter and heavy snowfalls, either.
- Paul North.
I suspect that the land the Toll Highway Authority is after is land owned by the CP which is currently vacant. They would build an overpass over the yard leads and main lines, all of which run east-west at this point, and the tollway wants to go north-south. (Mind you, I have not seen a map of this north-south segment...I've been wondering how they can possibly shoehorn any more infrastructure in that corridor!).This will also pit CP against Bensenville. That city has been hard-hit by the airport expansion (and resultant railroad relocation). The new road will cut a swath through Bensenville at some point, and suggesting that even more land and buildings (light industry and bars along Green Street at this point, IIRC). I think the railroad is just holding out for a better deal--about the only thing they'd use the property for would be to park more trailers (further observations contingent upon seeing a map of were they want the road to go).
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
CShaveRR I suspect that the land the Toll Highway Authority is after is land owned by the CP which is currently vacant. They would build an overpass over the yard leads and main lines, all of which run east-west at this point, and the tollway wants to go north-south. (Mind you, I have not seen a map of this north-south segment...I've been wondering how they can possibly shoehorn any more infrastructure in that corridor!).This will also pit CP against Bensenville. That city has been hard-hit by the airport expansion (and resultant railroad relocation). The new road will cut a swath through Bensenville at some point, and suggesting that even more land and buildings (light industry and bars along Green Street at this point, IIRC). I think the railroad is just holding out for a better deal--about the only thing they'd use the property for would be to park more trailers (further observations contingent upon seeing a map of were they want the road to go).
At last, a voice of locally informed reason.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
I just looked at the location via Mapquest and I don't see that kind of open acreage the Tollway is requesting on what appears to be CP property.........all I see is tracks and most are in use. Looks like their intermodal yard is space constrained quite a bit but I don't know how much of that they use or need.
I too think the Railroad has a solid case though.
From the articles etc., my recollections of the area from not long ago and the view on Earth, that SW corner of the Bensenville yard property appears quite empty. The yard and intermodal are to the east. But without details of the precise route of the road, it's hard to tell what the impact might actually be. But that doesn't stop a bunch of speculation on here as though this were a catastrophic, cataclysmic event.
Reading the IDOT plan is entertaining: "greenest plans" -- no road is green, it just encourages more cars, "reduced congestion" -- widening roads don't reduce congestion, they just move it to a new area. When are road designers going to realize that adding lanes and parking spots is what got them where they are.
schlimm,
Paul North provided a link to a map that shows the road crossing the center of the CP yard.
No, the do not pass go. Aks ex govenor Bronkdonovich. I believe he is currently residing in the federal prison in Norht Carolina.
Norm48327 schlimm, Paul North provided a link to a map that shows the road crossing the center of the CP yard.
That was his opinion based on a very poor "map", really just an inaccurate sketch (Taft ave. is shown going in the wrong diection). Neither Carl nor I, who are more familiar with the area, would say it goes through the middle of the yard. Probably it would go from York Rd along the north side of Green St. (south edge of the yard) and then turn south to connect to I 294. But as I said, to draw any real conclusions would require te actual planning map.
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9544158,-87.9272908,15.25z
With all the seriousness of the matter if it comes to a vote, Al Capone will take the train to Chi town and vote early and often as in the past.
Y6bs evergreen in my mind
Reading the articles and looking at the map provided and Google Maps, it's not really clear where the new road is proposed to go. The only thing I can figure out is that it appears that a new interchange would be built in the southeat corner of the rail yard, using the railroad's property. That property seems to currently be occupied by lots of containers, both east and west of the tollway. If that interchange is for a new tollway coming around from the west of the airport as the article seems to suggest, it looks like it would indeed go right through a main part of the yard from southeast to northwest. Surely a project this far along in the design process has some more defined maps available to the public?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy Siding (11-16):
You wrote, “Surely a project this far along in the design process ...” It may be. But the situation shows up a flaw in the higher education system. Higher education seems to teach the condemnation of property as a last option. Higher education did NOT teach them, however, that that is just NOT an option with a railroad.
Anybody for making some money by writing a book on the subject BEFORE word gets around?
Take care,
K.P.
I agree that a map showing the proposed route is a must. Norris, the proposed interchange is indeed for the new tollway going west of the airport. I was able to find a map showing what is planned. Interstate 294 will be improved and made into an interchange from all the way down by North Avenue (Illinois 64) northward. The new route will finally leave 294 beyond the "Grand Avenue Curve" and east of the Union Pacific overpass. It will continue east of the UP until just south of Franklin Avenue (Green Street), where it will curve toward the west, crossing Franklin Avenue and the UP at about the same spot. The interchang in question is basically a northward extension of County Line Road beyond Green Street/Franklin Avenue (the name changes at the county line). From its cossing of Franklin Avenue, the new road will settle into the area between Green Street and the railroad, taking out a bunch of small factories but mostly covering vacant land owned by the CP itself. For those who remember where the diesel shop was, it will probably be under the new road, and that large building they built to the east of the old shop area will have to go, as will the still-standing turntable. But the only trackage in jeopardy (as shown on the Google map) is the single line considerably to the south of everything else. The interchange at Green Street/Franklin Avenue is only a partial connection, between the tollway to the north of the street and the street itself (i.e., you won't be able to use Green Street to get onto the new road going south, or exit from the south to Green Street).The new highway will then curve to the north, crossing over both railroads at about the point where the UP separates from the CP, making its easier curve. For the stretch along the western edge of the airport, the highway will be east of the two railroads. The interchange between the new road and the also-new Elgin-O'Hare tollway will feature no fewer than five bridges over the tracks.Looking at all of this, I would say that the tollway's plans are fairly sound (but what do I know?). CP's attitude is basically that of the dog in the manger, especially considering how they've done nothing but cut back operations at Bensenville since EHH took over. Most of the casualties along the south end of the new route and the eastern part of Illinois 390 ("Elgin-O'Hare") will be light-industry buildings, a number of which are probaby vacant anyway (some have already been torn down). It doesn't appear that any more of Bensenville's (the city/village) footprint will be impacted by this. I don't see how CP's suggestion for an interchange south of Green Street (instead of north, on CP property) would work at all, given the map I saw.That map, by the way: go to Illinoistollway.com. Look for Elgin O'Hare Western Access (EOWA) Project Overview. Scroll down, and under "EOWA Land Acquisition Documents" click on "EOWA Concept Plan Drawing - Western Access (pdf)".I can't side with the railroad on this one.
Carl,
Thaks for the description. I was able to follow it on Google Earth and draw a mental picture. Can you link o that map?
Whose tracks are curving on the Western Boundry of O'Hare, I've seen CP trains on them and thought they also belonged to CP? Is that Belt Railway of Chicago?
O'Hare was pretty easy to get to from Shaumburg, IL from the year I spent up there not too long ago. Western access was OK but done via surface streets, is that what they are trying to fix? Have Western access be entirely Freeway?
A link to the map of the proposed route.
http://www.illinoistollway.com/documents/10157/8320517/4_EOWA_ConceptPlan_WesternAccess_I-294
An "expensive model collector"
This should help
CShaveRR (11-16):
Hi, Carl!
I had to go to the ‘site map’ at the site you suggested, and was able to locate what you suggested that way; however, the link wouldn’t work on my computer, nor the links provided by others. Oh, well.
Anyway, since you’ve taken sides, what is your solution? Does a dying railroad justify the government cutting off their arms for the public good?
Curious minds want to know,
K. P. Harrier Anyway, since you’ve taken sides, what is your solution? Does a dying railroad justify the government cutting off their arms for the public good?
What railroad is "dying"?
Carl- I'll second that thanks for the decsription. I was able to follow the route on Google Maps as well. (So easy, even a caveman could do it.) If this has reached a point where there's talk of condemnation and eminent domain, does that mean they're already past the part where an offer to buy the land outright was made?
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