French Test Train derailment

[BaltACD]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34822666?ocid=socialflow_facebook&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=facebook

5 dead

[Norm48327]

Next headline: "French politicians demand Positive Train Control".

[BaltACD]

Norm48327

Next headline: "French politicians demand Positive Train Control".

Maybe they were testing PTC.  Fail!

[Firelock76]

Maybe this has something to do with the terrorist attacks in Paris?  I wouldn't rule it out.  Considering how long the TGV has been operating I would think the head end crew would know enough to slow it down at the appropriate times.  A highjacking by suicidal maniacs would obviate that.

Hope I'm wrong.

[schlimm]

BaltACD

 

 

Norm48327

Next headline: "French politicians demand Positive Train Control".

 

 

Maybe they were testing PTC.  Fail!

 

Whatever the cause,at least 10 died.  And you guys think it's appropriate to joke around because you dislike PTC?  

[wanswheel]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/gallery/2015/nov/14/paris-attacks-memorials-victims-friday-13

[BaltACD]

schlimm

BaltACD

Norm48327

Next headline: "French politicians demand Positive Train Control".

Maybe they were testing PTC.  Fail!

Whatever the cause,at least 10 died.  And you guys think it's appropriate to joke around becuase you dislike PTC? 

Not disliking PTC - however, it is not the answer to ALL railroad incidents that the politicians and the media are playing it up to be.  There WILL BE incidents that are CAUSED by PTC.  Where, when and how remain to be seen.

[Norm48327]

schlimm

Whatever the cause,at least 10 died. And you guys think it's appropriate to joke around because you dislike PTC?

Not joking, and I have nothing against PTC. Just commenting on how politicians usually react.

[rfpjohn]

I'm fairly certain the TGV system has something akin to PTC in place which, given the speeds involved, would seem absolutely neccessary. And yes, I will go on record as not being a fan of PTC as it is being applied to the US rail system. My initial suspicion is mechanical/structural failure at high speed. Something PTC would be completely unable to prevent.

[schlimm]

rfpjohn

I'm fairly certain the TGV system has something akin to PTC in place which, given the speeds involved, would seem absolutely neccessary. And yes, I will go on record as not being a fan of PTC as it is being applied to the US rail system. My initial suspicion is mechanical/structural failure at high speed. Something PTC would be completely unable to prevent.

 

TVM-300 or TVM-430.  Transmission Voie-Machine (TVM, English = track-to-train transmission, developed in the 1970s originally for French TGV lines (HSR).

[blue streak 1]

Another article

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/europe/ten-dead-as-test-train-derails-on-tgv-est-phase-2.html?channel=537

 

[BaltACD]

rfpjohn I'm fairly certain the TGV system has something akin to PTC in place which, given the speeds involved, would seem absolutely neccessary. And yes, I will go on record as not being a fan of PTC as it is being applied to the US rail system. My initial suspicion is mechanical/structural failure at high speed. Something PTC would be completely unable to prevent.

RailPictures.net

Posted by Daniel Minaca on November 16, 2015 

I was in the same kind of test trainset for Line Rhin Rhone speed tests on June 2011 (see RPN #369491 for details) where we have reach 359,2 kph this day ! What you must know is that on new line speed tests, the security systems regarding speed control are disabled to reach the max defined speed. The driver of the train is a special driver of the French "rail test agency" who's formed to respect protocols when the run speed is greater as standard commercial speed. The driver have specific instruments for speed control who's different with standard train equipment (see the cabview on my RPN #369491 picture). May be a technical problem appears in this case...

Test conditions are not normal operating conditions.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Basic info is missing from those news articles: curve (how sharp ?) or tangent, near or over a turnout (switch), bridge, or other special trackwork, how many cars left the track, whether they turned over, "accordioned", or just plowed up the R-O-W, etc.  Compare with the coverage of the Amtrak derailment at Frankford Jct. this past May. 

- Paul North.

[schlimm]

Paul_D_North_Jr

Basic info is missing from those news articles: curve (how sharp ?) or tangent, near or over a turnout (switch), bridge, or other special trackwork, how many cars left the track, whether they turned over, "accordioned", or just plowed up the R-O-W, etc.  Compare with the coverage of the Amtrak derailment at Frankford Jct. this past May. 

- Paul North.

 

Greater coverage might be found in French media, obviously.

[Mario_v]

schlimm

 

 

Paul_D_North_Jr

Basic info is missing from those news articles: curve (how sharp ?) or tangent, near or over a turnout (switch), bridge, or other special trackwork, how many cars left the track, whether they turned over, "accordioned", or just plowed up the R-O-W, etc.  Compare with the coverage of the Amtrak derailment at Frankford Jct. this past May. 

- Paul North.

 

 

 

 

Greater coverage might be found in French media, obviously.

 

Railway Gazette has been doing a quite comprehensive coverage, see it here ;

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/news/europe/single-view/view/late-braking-caused-tgv-derailment-says-sncf.html

The resaon, according with this source, seems toi have been a too late braking application, and judging by the tech daae of place where it happened (a curve of 1000 meter radii, normally good for 160 km/h, but in this test would be taken at 176 km/h), the unfortunate happening would be a more than probale causa

[BaltACD]

Railway Gazette

The report has concluded that the ‘certain cause’ of the accident was ‘a late braking sequence’. The train derailed at 243 km/h after entering a 945 m radius curve over a canal at Eckwersheim at 265 km/h, instead of the 176 km/h limit applying to that point in the test run. The resulting centrifugal force destabilised the TGV causing the vehicles to derail, with some coming to rest in the canal. The curve forms the approach to the grade-separated junction between LGV Est and the Paris – Strasbourg main line at Vendenheim.

[Murphy Siding]

schlimm

 

 

 

 

 

Greater coverage might be found in French media, obviously.

 

  Oh bien sur, mais pas tout le monde parle Francais.

[schlimm]

Murphy Siding

 

 

schlimm

 

 

 

 

 

Greater coverage might be found in French media, obviously.

 

 

 

 

  Oh bien sur, mais pas tout le monde parle Francais.

 

 

Neither do I, but almost anyone can use the translator function on Chrome as your browser.

[Mario_v]

schlimm

 

 

Murphy Siding

 

 

schlimm

 

 

 

 

 

Greater coverage might be found in French media, obviously.

 

 

 

 

  Oh bien sur, mais pas tout le monde parle Francais.

 

 

 

 

 

Neither do I, but almost anyone can use the translator function on Chrome as your browser.

 

The most comprehensive coverage, with a technical insight, up untill now, has been the one provided by railway gazette. In a seach done on google using 'accident ferroviare tgv 14 novembre' (railway accident November 14) one gets news varying between 1 and 6 days old, with the most recent saying the same that's written on the Railway Gazette article I posted earlier

[Euclid]

The immediate cause was a “late braking sequence.”  Apparently, this was not the result of any type of equipment failure.  So does that mean that the derailment was caused by operator error?

[cx500]

In a word, "Yes".  Possibly somewhat distracted by extra people in the cab.  Another factor might be his familiarity with the line since I believe it was newly built.  It takes many trips before every little detail of several hundred route miles can be instantly identified.

[BaltACD]

cx500

In a word, "Yes".  Possibly somewhat distracted by extra people in the cab.  Another factor might be his familiarity with the line since I believe it was newly built.  It takes many trips before every little detail of several hundred route miles can be instantly identified.

Trains, operating at track speed are not line of sight vehicles.

When you see the curve, it is already too late to begin to brake for it.  You have to know the territory intimately to operate a train efficiently at the maximum authorized speeds - TGV or 20000 ton coal train.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

BaltACD

cx500

In a word, "Yes".  Possibly somewhat distracted by extra people in the cab.  Another factor might be his familiarity with the line since I believe it was newly built.  It takes many trips before every little detail of several hundred route miles can be instantly identified.

Trains, operating at track speed are not line of sight vehicles.

When you see the curve, it is already too late to begin to brake for it.  You have to know the territory intimately to operate a train efficiently at the maximum authorized speeds - TGV or 20000 ton coal train. [emphasis added - PDN]

Insightful points, perhaps not commonly realized or known.  Thank you.

- Paul North. 

[Euclid]

I would be really amazed if they were running that test train by just line of sight without knowing the territory.  As I understand it, they even had PTC, but there is some question as to why that did not intercede and slow the train down.  They also had two engineers in the cab.  There is speculation that the PTC may have been turned off as part of the test.  Having seven people in the cab seems like a big risk for distraction.  The 1962 Granite Lake wreck on the NP was also a failure to slow for a curve.  With that, one speculation was that the engineer got lost. 

[blue streak 1]

BaltACD

 Trains, operating at track speed are not line of sight vehicles.

When you see the curve, it is already too late to begin to brake for it.  You have to know the territory intimately to operate a train efficiently at the maximum authorized speeds - TGV or 20000 ton coal train.

 

Could that be why we see speed boards on pictures of the Pacific north west BNSF lines ?

 

 

[BaltACD]

blue streak 1

BaltACD

 Trains, operating at track speed are not line of sight vehicles.

When you see the curve, it is already too late to begin to brake for it.  You have to know the territory intimately to operate a train efficiently at the maximum authorized speeds - TGV or 20000 ton coal train.

Could that be why we see speed boards on pictures of the Pacific north west BNSF lines ?

The standard for PERMANENT speed restriction boards is that they are placed at the beginning point of the restriction.  The locomotive engineers qualification process teaches him where the 'normal' braking point is for that particular restriction.  If he sees the PERMANENT speed restriction board and has yet to take actions to control the speed of his train - he is much too late in taking action.  As I said - at track speed - trains are not line of sight vehicles.

For TEMPORARY speed restrictions, in addition to the boards at the initial point of restriction and the final point of restriction, our rules require an ADVANCE WARNING BOARD to be placed 2 miles prior to the initial point of restriction.

[Euclid]

 

http://www.politico.eu/article/europe-trains-amtrak-safer-railways/

 

“A crash like the one in Philadelphia would have been virtually inconceivable in the EU, where most trains have Automatic Train Protection (known as Positive Train Control in the US) installed. This system restricts a train’s speed, or automatically applies emergency brakes, if the stipulated line speed is exceeded.”

 

So, what’s the story about the effect of PTC on this French high speed train derailment that is said to have been caused by excessive speed?  Was the PTC turned off for the test?  How long do we have to wait for the news to clarify this one simple point? 

If PTC reduces the danger, wouldn’t it add danger to turn it off for a test?  If it were necessary to add this danger, why would they have so many people on board?  Were these dozens of passengers, including four children and seven people in the locomotive cab all essential to conducting the test?

[Mario_v]

If anyone wishes, I've got the accident's preliminary report. The only issue is thta it's in frech. If any of you wants to have a look, just ask me by message

[schlimm]

The report and diagrams are on the SNCF site as PDFs.  Download it and run through any translator.  The cause was excessive speed, even for a test train, not track or equipment.  So appears to be human error.

[Paul Tucker]

SNCF were operating a series of test runs at 10% above the line speed limit before opening the line to the public. As their version of PTC would not allow this level of excess speed, the system would have been turned off.