Manned Helpers/Pushers

[Anonymous]

I was just reading about the CN takover of BC Rail, and one of the big changes is that they are going to get rid of the manned helpers at pemberton, otherwise known as the "Pemberton Pushers."

The Pemberton Pushers run engineer only, back and forth all day long.

Where abouts in the rest of North America do they still have manned helpers/pushers, and can anyone else think of places where they recently were able to get rid of them?

I assume they must be a fairly big expense.

[Modelcar]

....Doesn't Horseshoe still employee some manned helpers....{Altoona to the summit}.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

....Doesn't Horseshoe still employee some manned helpers....{Altoona to the summit}.

Horseshoe uses SD40-2 helpers, all other helper grades on NS usually use C40-9W's. I think CSX still has some manned helpers as well.

[oskar]

Augusta mostly uses Dash-9's and manned




kevin

[mvlandsw]

Never heard the term "assisant locomotive". On the B&O they were and are called helpers. In train order days when there was a helper on the train the orders were addressed " To C&E Extra 6900, Engine 7412 assisting West". CSX uses manned helpers daily on the east and west side of Sandpatch and the east bound grades east of Grafton WVa.

[ajmiller]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

....Doesn't Horseshoe still employee some manned helpers....{Altoona to the summit}.

Helpers are used on most freights that run the Hill both east and west bound. Helpers are added to westbounds at Altoona and usually drop off at Cresson, and added to eastbounds at Conemaugh near Johnstown and normally stay on all the way to Altoona to assist with dynamic braking. Most helpers push on the rear of the trains. Often helpers are moved light between Altoona and Conemaugh to shift power around as necessary.

[dwil89]

Pushers on the Pittsburgh Line generally help from the rear, but often couple ahead too. It is not uncommon to have heavier Westbound General Manifests coming around Horseshoe Curve upgrade with head end as well as rear help.... I also have seen helpers couple ahead of Eastbounders out of Johnstown....Headend crew might be getting close to outlawing, so a helper couples ahead to take it over the mountain to Altoona for a crewchange. I have witnessed a number of eastbound Coaldrags stopping at MO in Cresson due to crew being close on hours, and watched the helpers couple ahead right in front of me. 4 bangers...which are 2 pair of helpers coupled together are often used on heavier Eastbound Coaldrags out of Conemaugh and also used on the 69J and 67Z symbols which are westbound gondolas loaded with steel slabs....Also, Conemaugh is not always the western end of the helper district. Heavier trains can get pushers all the way from Pittsburgh, as the line is roller coaster west of Johnstown and helpers help control slack action. Often, the Westbound slabtrains will cut one pair of rear helpers at MO, or Conemaugh, and leave the rear helper on all the way to at least CP Wing, otherwise known as Wilmerding. east of Pittsburgh. Heavier eastbounders out of Pittsburgh often take the Conemaugh Line, which is a much milder grade than the mainline, to avoid helpers between Pitt and Conemaugh....A year ago, the Conemaugh line was shut down for 2 weeks for Maintenance, so everything had to run the mainline...I was out at Latrobe, one day during this timeframe,about 45 minutes West of Johnstown, and they were running helpers on alot of trains that day....Helper crews on this line rely on the amp gauge,and the headend calling them on the radio letting them know what signals are, so they know how hard to push...if a signal goes to a more restricting indication, the headend will call the rear helpers somwehat like this..' NS 18G 9524 calling the helper 3373, we got a restricting up here at MO, and we're slowing down.....Helper responds..'That's a Roger, restricting at MO," and the helpers throttle down....Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown

[dwil89]

I might also add that manned helpers are still being used on the CSX Sand Patch Grade, between Cumberland and Connelsville, Pa. SD50's are the helper power there. Unlike the Norfolk Southern Line over Horseshoe Curve, Helpers on Sand Patch usually stay on their own side of the Mountain...Westbounders shove out of Cumberland up to the Summit and then uncouple and head light back down to Cumberland....Eastbounders usually shove from Connellsville to the Summit and cutoff and run light back to Connellsville, this is because the distances from the helper bases to the summit are a fairly good distance, more than on the NS line. On NS, helpers running west on a train out of Altoona, may cut off up at UN, (Gallitzin), or MO in Cresson, and run light back to Altoona for another Westbound shove ( or couple ahead of an outlawing Eastbound at MO) or they can stay on the rear of the train for dynamic braking down to Conemaugh, where they will usually cutoff to wait for another eastbound shove....Eastbound helpers on NS will usually run all the way down to Altoona, unlike Sand Patch, where crews out of Connellsville will cut off at the top....Dave WIlliams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown

[ericsp]

Does anyone know why UP puts the DPU helpers on the MRVWC and takes them off of the MWCRV at Roseville instead of Bakersfield? They are running about 300 miles through a valley with very easy grades. Does closing the locomotive maintenance at Bakersfield save enough money to justify this or is there another reason?

[Anonymous]

I few (6 to 8) years ago, I saw a Conrail slab train in Altoona that had two SD80MAC's in the front, two in the middle, and two more at the rear. I'll never forget that!

[dwil89]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dougal

I few (6 to 8) years ago, I saw a Conrail slab train in Altoona that had two SD80MAC's in the front, two in the middle, and two more at the rear. I'll never forget that!

They were using all 80 MACS? That is unusual....I know up to the end of Conrail, on certain heavy Westbounders, such as the old BAPI (Baltimore to Pittsburgh), they were cutting helpers into the middle. Anyone that has viewed 150 years at Horseshoe Curve, by Revelation Video, will recall footage toward the end of the video showing a Conrail Freight in the mid 1990's heading around Horseshoe Curve with mid-train help. NS stopped this practice, because it simply took too much time to break the train apart in Altoona and Conemaugh to attach and remove the mid-train helpers.....That's a new one to me that they did something like this with a pure 80MAC lashup.....Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown

[Modelcar]

Dave and ajmiller....Interesting stuff. Very interesting all the details described. Sounds like the Johnstown / Altoona area still has plenty of it...{It gets my attention because my home, in the growing up years, was in the Johnstown area}.

[Anonymous]

I used to assemble some of the DPU consists out of Roseville and theMRVWC was one of my regular assignments. We started out using MAC-9043's, two on point and one midtrain. It was really a pain in the butt trying to learn how to operate the DPU. It is controlled by a black box in the lead unit. That box can do everything but start the unit. If the engineer doesn't need the Hp. he / she can place the unit in neutral and just drag it .

[dwil89]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

Dave and ajmiller....Interesting stuff. Very interesting all the details described. Sounds like the Johnstown / Altoona area still has plenty of it...{It gets my attention because my home, in the growing up years, was in the Johnstown area}.

Well, this area is like my 2nd home..My parents were born and raised in South Fork, near Johnstown, and my Great Grandfather was a steam engineer for the PRR, worked for the PRR for 40 yrs.....I spent summer vacations and holidays as a child watching trains from my Grandparents houses in South Fork....I spend quite a bit of time out in the area railfanning nowadays...(basically my entire vacation time spread out throughout the year).I think I am literally one of the Station Inn's best customers.....Dave Williams

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by drailed1999

I used to assemble some of the DPU consists out of Roseville and theMRVWC was one of my regular assignments. We started out using MAC-9043's, two on point and one midtrain. It was really a pain in the butt trying to learn how to operate the DPU. It is controlled by a black box in the lead unit. That box can do everything but start the unit. If the engineer doesn't need the Hp. he / she can place the unit in neutral and just drag it .

I have not seen those on the MRVWC/MWCRV in a long time. Now it is mainly AC44CTEs and SD70Ms with SD60s, SD60Ms, 9-44CWs, 8-40Cs, 8-41CWs, and even an occasional SD40M-2 thrown in. Now the helpers are almost always on the back of the train.

I found a DPU checklist lying on the ground by the train yard once.

[Anonymous]

In the early days of Conrail, whatever was running could be a helper. CR finally settled on the ex-CNJ SD40's and the 13 ex-EL SD45-2's.

After the SD40's were retired, the helper fleet consisted of SD40-2's and SD45-2's.

Even NS has seen fit to rely on SD40-2's to push and pull heavy freight and unit trains.

Even now there is an NS 536 coaltrain waiting at CP C in Conemaugh for his rear end helper(s).

It could get a 4-banger!

[broncoman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ericsp

Does anyone know why UP puts the DPU helpers on the MRVWC and takes them off of the MWCRV at Roseville instead of Bakersfield? They are running about 300 miles through a valley with very easy grades. Does closing the locomotive maintenance at Bakersfield save enough money to justify this or is there another reason?

They don't cut off the helpers at Fresno for the trip back to LA. I don't see very many trains leaving Roseville going south with helpers on them? Do they just need help for the northbound trip?

[dwil89]

The Pennsy even used Mid-Train helpers. A Horseshoe Curve Retrospective video showed an Iron-ore train in the mid 1950's departing Altoona with Baldwin Centipedes as rear helpers, and a conglomeration, including a GP-7 Cabless unit as mid-train. The narrator indicated that this train was stopping in Gallitzin to cut off one helper set. I believe it was the rear helper. If it was the mid-train helper, the Train probably stopped at UN, or MO in Cresson, cut the train in half, took the mid-train set out, and then put the train back together....If it was the rear helper, It could have stopped near UN just west of the Gallitzin Tunnels and then the rear helpers could have cut off, and gone around the loop track between UN and AR...or else the train stopped at MO in Cresson and helpers would have just reversed direction and crossed back over at MO to an eastbound track. In later Conrail years, I believe the Mid-train units usually stayed on until at least Conemaugh. Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by broncoman

QUOTE: Originally posted by ericsp

Does anyone know why UP puts the DPU helpers on the MRVWC and takes them off of the MWCRV at Roseville instead of Bakersfield? They are running about 300 miles through a valley with very easy grades. Does closing the locomotive maintenance at Bakersfield save enough money to justify this or is there another reason?

They don't cut off the helpers at Fresno for the trip back to LA. I don't see very many trains leaving Roseville going south with helpers on them? Do they just need help for the northbound trip?

No, helpers are not added to or taken from trains at Fresno. There may have been a couple of cases where this was done for some reason. However, it is definately not the rule. On the rare occasions where I have seen locomotives added to or taken from trains at Fresno, it was always at the front end.

It is interesting that you said you do not see many trains going south out of Roseville with helpers. Almost all MRVWCs that I see have helpers, however it is not unusual to see MWCRVs without helpers. This is true for north of Fresno. The southboard (railroad eastbound) trains are usually loaded with lumber whereas the northbound (railroad westbound) usually have large block(s) of empty lumber cars. Of course eastbound and westbound flip at Lathrop if UP kept SP's convention. Then there are the MWCEUs which are almost entirely empty lumber cars.

If you do not make it to the west end of Roseville often, I think I may know why you mainly see trains without helpers. I think Roseville sends usually 2 MRVWCs per day. They also send trains to Fresno, Ceres, Stockton, Ozol (not sure about that), Oakland, San Jose (not sure about that), Mira Loma, and Dolores. Obviously the trains going to San Joaquin Valley locations do not have helpers. I have seen trains coming into Roseville that look like they probably came from Oakland, they had no helpers, which makes sense because there are no steep mountain grades to the Bay Area (although I do seem to recall that the Martinez approach to the Carquinez Strait bridge is steep). The trains going to Dolores and Mira Loma normally take the Coast Line, so I do not know if they have DPU helpers. My guess would be that they do not. The last I heard Cuesta Grade still has manned helpers, although it could be DPU for the trains going over it now.

[Modelcar]

Dave, my grounds was south of the Johnstown area....{Stoystown, on Rt. 30}, but for years when we came back for a visit we made our stay at the Holiday Inn Hotel in downtown Johnstown. Now, we still visit about twice a year and make our "home" at the Hampton Inn in Somerset but with "new" Rt. 219 it's just a quick drive to get to the Johnstown area. Often have lunch at "Johnnies" on Main st. in Johnsown. Visit Horseshoe occasionally too....and the Tunnels at Gallitzin....

[TH&B]

When railroads use pushers at the rear must they always cut in the air? I heard that the Horse Shoe Curve on NS (ex CR) does not cut in the air and the helprs can cut off on the fly.

[Anonymous]

Not that I know for sure, but I would assume air wouldn't be necessary if the pushers are going to cut off at the top of the hill.

If the pushers are going to be cut off in motion, then surely they wouldn't be on air, because then that would require someone to go and close the angle **** on the last car and locomotive, (highly dangerous and against the rules), otherwise the whole train would just go into emergency.

[BaltACD]

Cutting in and cutting out mid-train helpers are a royal pain in the operation, and should be avoided at nearly all costs, unless the helpers will be in place from major classification yard to major classification yard or other significant point in the operation of the division or sub-division..

Head end helpers are limited to maximum drawbar restrictions, in some locations known as 'trailing tonnage'. Passenger trains and some intermodal trains can utilize head end helpers because their trailing tonnage is not great enough to require a rear end helper. On some terrirories, intermodal and auto rack trains may be required to have rear end or even worse, mid-train helpers account restrictions concerning 'trailing tonnage behind long cars'. Those restriction were developed account of a phonima known as 'string lining'; where empty or lightly loaded long cars (85 foot and greater0 can be pulled off the rail rounding curves account excessive trailing tonnage....ie. pulling the string tight.

Helper usage, the kind, the location whether maned or DPU is the result of a number of complex factors all designed with the throught of moving maximum tonnage for minimum overall cost.

[dwil89]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

Dave, my grounds was south of the Johnstown area....{Stoystown, on Rt. 30}, but for years when we came back for a visit we made our stay at the Holiday Inn Hotel in downtown Johnstown. Now, we still visit about twice a year and make our "home" at the Hampton Inn in Somerset but with "new" Rt. 219 it's just a quick drive to get to the Johnstown area. Often have lunch at "Johnnies" on Main st. in Johnsown. Visit Horseshoe occasionally too....and the Tunnels at Gallitzin....

Yeah, I know that Rte 30 area..I have relatives down in Laughlintown, just out of Ligonier, on the West side of the mountain.....Dave Williams

[dwil89]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

440...I've heard of them removing the pushers at summit above Horseshoe on the move too...but can't answer question of air....

They did this for the final few years on Conrail...Conrail reduced the Helper crews to one man crews, and added helper-link to their SD40-2's assigned to helper service. When the train reached the point where they wanted to cutoff the rear helper, the helper engineer pressed a lever that pulled the pin and then the helper simply applied its brakes while the train kept moving...I believe there was air attached...hose simply disconnected when helper separated from the train....When NS took over, they went back to two man helper crews, so away went the helper-link....NS also instituted either a rule, or an option to the helper crews, in that if they are in rear helper service, I've observed the crews riding in the rear unit instead of the engine against the train. Dave Williams

[Modelcar]

Dave....Small world....almost every time we visit the area I must go to Ligonier...Have a first cousin that lives there....and Yes I know about Laughlintown....I also have a vested interest in the long abandoned Ligonier Valley RR...Removed from service in 1952. The beautiful depot building including the long shed structure that was next to the track is still there....Building is being used. The ex "round house" is now a Catholic Church School.....Used to watch all the steam operation around there as a youngster while over there visiting my cousin in the summertime....Watched the doodlebug come in from Latrobe and drop off the daily papers and of course passengers that worked out that way, etc.....If you type in LVRR in Google and look close you might be able to pull up a photo of one of their steam engines parked near the roundhouse and the photo was taken in 1940...!

[Anonymous]

Did the pemberton pushers push on air?

[Anonymous]

Oh, I never realized that the pemberton pushers were cut in mid-train as opposed to being on the end.

Are the pemberton pushers gone now, or are they around for a little longer?

[Anonymous]

Do they put them on the head end or cut them into the middle?

[mvlandsw]

QUOTE: Originally posted by macguy

Not that I know for sure, but I would assume air wouldn't be necessary if the pushers are going to cut off at the top of the hill.

If the pushers are going to be cut off in motion, then surely they wouldn't be on air, because then that would require someone to go and close the angle **** on the last car and locomotive, (highly dangerous and against the rules), otherwise the whole train would just go into emergency.

The air is required to be cut in on all parts of a train by regulations. When there was a manned caboose on a train the rear end crew would close the angle **** on the caboose. On the B&O the cabooses had a handle to do this from the platform without having to get down on the steps to reach the angle ****. There was also a chain attached to the cut lever to pull the pin from the platform. When the helper engine separated it would go into emergency and the engineer would regulate the brake cyclinder pressure to bring the engine to a stop without sliding the wheels. After the cabooses were eliminated all trains had to stop to cut off helpers. Helper Link was developed to eliminate the stop when cutting off and the need to disconnect the EOT and hook up the air hoses between the train and the helper when tieing on. This is done by having the Helper Link read the air pressure from the EOT on the end of the train and apply the same pressure to the helper engine's brake pipe. Thus the brake pipe pressure on the helper engine follows any changes in the pressure on the rear car and the helper brakes work just as if the hose were coupled to the train. The Helper Link also has a connection to the coupler pin of the helper engine allowing the pin to be pulled from the cab. This allows one man helper operation if desired.