Hello
I am new to the forums. I tried to find the forum rules but I wasn't able to find them. I found this website and forum when I did a search about disappearances of Amtrak passengers, and found this news article here:
• http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2015/08/body-of-missing-amtrak-passenger-found-three-years-after-disappearance
I am someone who knew this young man. Robin Putnam, who disappeared while riding an Amtrak train, and then was found dead near the railroad tracks in the desert south of Wells, Nevada. I joined this forum to ask some questions that people who know about trains and railroads might know, as I have been wondering what happened to my friend Robin. If anyone can help by shedding light on these things I would be grateful.
First, I looked at the map of Union Pacific Railroad lines and it seems that there are two rail lines between Elko, the last Amtrak stop before Salt Lake City, and Salt Lake City. One route heads south of Wells, the other heads north from Wells. Does anyone know if Amtrak trains travel along both these routes, or is one route only for Union Pacific trains? Specifically I am wondering if the southern route where his remains were found, is traveled by both Union Pacific and Amtrak trains, or only one of those.
Second, does anyone know if there are any Union Pacific freight trains that stop or are stored in Salt Lake City, near the AMtrak station there? Or is there another place in Salt Lake City where Union Pacific Freight trains are found? I am wondering if Robin, after getting off his eastbound Amtrak train at Salt Lake, might have gotten onto either an AMtrak or Union Pacific train heading west.
Third, does anyone know how difficult or easy it is to "stow away" on a freight train like the hobos do, in a boxcar? I was wondering if he, possibly with one or more others, might have stowed away in a boxcar or freight car on a Freight Train, and then later on either fallen out or gotten pushed out. Do freight trains sit in train yards with the doors of the box cars open, so that someone could slip in? Or do they tend to have the doors shut so it is harder to stow away?
Fourth, of the Amtrak trains heading west from Salt Lake, the Zephyr line as I believe it is called, is it possible that someone could board the wrong Amtrak train (eg westbound instead of eastbound) without a ticket for that train and without anyone noticing someone on the train that wasn't supposed to be there? It seems to me that people stowing away on a boxcar could go unnoticed but those on a passenger train I would think would be noticed.
Thank you for any help you can provide as I struggle with this sad mystery of my lost friend.
He was a very gentle soul, and such a creative person! His parents put so much time in trying to find him the last three years.
Odysseus Specifically I am wondering if the southern route where his remains were found, is traveled by both Union Pacific and Amtrak trains, or only one of those.
Specifically I am wondering if the southern route where his remains were found, is traveled by both Union Pacific and Amtrak trains, or only one of those.
Both.
Second, does anyone know if there are any Union Pacific freight trains that stop or are stored in Salt Lake City, near the AMtrak station there? Or is there another place in Salt Lake City where Union Pacific Freight trains are found?
There are numerous yards in the Salt Lake City area. Primarily North Yard north of the Amtrak station by a couple miles, Roper Yard souuth of the Amtrak station by a couple miles plus lots of other sidings and connection tracks between the various routes.
I am wondering if Robin, after getting off his eastbound Amtrak train at Salt Lake, might have gotten onto either an AMtrak or Union Pacific train heading west.
An eastward Amtrak train would physically be traveling south at SLC, so to end up west of SLC he would have to get on train traveling physically northbound. The Amtrak Station is located south of Grant Tower, where the lines to San Francisco, Los Angeles and Ogden all cross. The UP runs trains in about 5 directions out of SLC and they all more or less pass within a mile or so of the Amtrak station.
Most boxcars have the doors shut. Many people ride the ends of covered hopper cars.
Anything's possible. Theoretically it would be difficult to do what you have suggested because the wwestbound train departs SLC 4 hours before the eastbound train arrives there (if they are on time). If the trains weren't n time then its anybody's guess. Leaving SLC westward you basically are going across a desert, so there aren't any stops and there aren't any towns. Even somebody hanging on the side of a car might go a long distance before there would be anybody to see them. Probably the conductor on Amtrak isn't in a big hurry to check tickets because there aren't any stops going across the salt flats.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Thank you Dave for your replies. This helps set the context -- it looks like there are several possibilities, both for taking an Amtrak or UP train to the west.
The reports are that he got off at Salt Lake City, and so, if he ended up 180 miles west on the train tracks, he would have had to take another train west, which is possible, but I am still wondering whether those who reported seeing him get off the train at Salt Lake might be mistaken. This would mean he may have fallen off the train before he got to Salt Lake, which involves less complexity. I found an article written 3 years ago, actually shortly after Robin's disappearance, in which it's reported that over 40 people have fallen to their deaths from Amtrak trains since 1972:
http://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/local_news/unlocked-amtrak-doors-linked-to-series-of-deaths/article_a5738b68-fbd9-517e-8c6e-dd56c4c45c3c.html
Given that this has happened so often, approximately once a year, this seems plausible. In fact, another man from California went missing from an Amtrak train only 2 months after Robin disappeared, and his body was later found by the tracks in NEbraska:
http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/22/us/missing-amtrak-passenger/
So I suppose there are several possibilities.
corwindaAmtrak only runs on the track south of Wells. UP freights run on both.
Johnny
What does "WP" stand for? I am not familiar with railroad terminology....
Thank you for clarifying, Corwinda. That means that in the area where he was found, both Amtrak and Union Pacific trains would run along those tracks.
Odysseus Third, does anyone know how difficult or easy it is to "stow away" on a freight train like the hobos do, in a boxcar? I was wondering if he, possibly with one or more others, might have stowed away in a boxcar or freight car on a Freight Train, and then later on either fallen out or gotten pushed out. Do freight trains sit in train yards with the doors of the box cars open, so that someone could slip in? Or do they tend to have the doors shut so it is harder to stow away?
I've seen many a boxcar with doors open travelling through the Harrisburg area of PA on the NS line, so it is possible to still get into a boxcar.
Odysseus What does "WP" stand for? I am not familiar with railroad terminology....
The poor man had mental problems, so who knows? But the LEAST likely scenario, in my opinion, is that, bound for Grand Junction, he should have gotten off of Amtrak No. 6 in Salt Lake and hopped a freight for back west.
This scenario depends on an unauthenticated account that he detrained in Salt Lake. And that he had the expertise to hop a freight train.
The wonder to me is that it takes three years to find a body beside the railroad tracks.
I find it incomprehensible that he 'fell' from a Amtrak train. The requirement to open the trap doors says if anyone decides to depart the train they took voluntary (or criminal assistance) actions to depart the train.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Thank you corwinda, dakotafred and BaltACD for your thoughts on this. It is good to know that it is unlikely he took a freight train back west --- and yes, if he fell off Amtrak I would definitely think it was not a matter of simply falling, since one would have to open an exterior door and jump or walk out, or be pushed out.
It is not clear what his mental state was while in the train -- a fellow Amtrak passenger who spoke with him en route did not seem to note anything of concern, but just before leaving for his trip, there were events raising quite grave concerns about his psychological stability.
His parents were also wondering how his body could have lain by the tracks for 3 years without being seen, but corwinda points out the high sagebrush in the area and this would explain how someone could lay there obscured from view. Also I would think that passengers on the train would probably not have a good view of the area right close to the tracks, and I thought probably train conductors do not spend all their time looking at the tracks ahead of them, as they run the train.
The authorities are apparently still investigating this situation.
BaltACD I find it incomprehensible that he 'fell' from a Amtrak train. The requirement to open the trap doors says if anyone decides to depart the train they took voluntary (or criminal assistance) actions to depart the train.
Incidentally, When I was going from Miami to Jacksonville in February of 1970, I was walking back to my roomette from the observation car and, after a station stop, came to a vestibule with the door wide open and the trap up--and I carefully lowered the trap and closed the door. Perhaps I should have looked to see if the step box was in the vestibule, but I did not think of doing so. I hate to think of what could have taken place if an unwary passenger had entered that vestibule just as the train went around a curve.
First, let me say how sorry I am that you lost a friend and for three years, have had no closure.
As to your question about getting off a train, it is very easy. I have a daughter-in-law who's father was traveling on the SW Chief from Chicago to Kingman AZ and was in the early stages of Alzhiemers. The train stopped for unknown reasons before arriving in Kingman and it is surmised that he went downstairs in the coach and climbed out the window of a door, and fell to the side of the train. When the train reached Kingman, the individual who was waiting for him queried the conductor who checked the train but couldn't find him. But they did find a train car with an open window and his bags next to it. The sheriff sent people east along the track and they found him alongside the ROW, much the worse for wear but alive and requiring hospitalization. He recovered but he had no recollection of the event. The Alzhiemers became worse and he ultimatly required round the clock care in an Alzhiemers nursing facility. He lived for about six years after the fall from the train.
He was fortunate that he was promptly missed and found. Had he been going to L.A. and no one waiting for him he could have perished along the ROW, or been hit by another train, or if the train had been at speed died on the spot. I would expect that if one died along the ROW, animals might drag a body away from the tracks. Or if you are confused and seeing demons, you might feel a need to escape and jump out a window which is not what a rational person would do but it is easy to open the window or door on a Superliner. I question whether Mr Putnam ever arrived at SLC.
At least the father in law was promptly found. The desert is an inhostpitable place to survive in.
OdysseusAlso I would think that passengers on the train would probably not have a good view of the area right close to the tracks, and I thought probably train conductors do not spend all their time looking at the tracks ahead of them, as they run the train.
Remember that the train operates through that area after dark and that most passengers are asleep. The engineer is in the front and would not see anything behind him. Other train crews might see a body if they were looking for one but as Corwinda postulates, the sagebrush could easily hide the body.
Perhaps the NSTB should require an interlock on the doors and windows so they can not be opened without a key if the train is going faster than five mph. Ok guys, don't start throwing the tomatoes at me. It was just a thought.
Electroliner 1935 Odysseus Remember that the train operates through that area after dark and that most passengers are asleep. The engineer is in the front and would not see anything behind him. Other train crews might see a body if they were looking for one but as Corwinda postulates, the sagebrush could easily hide the body. Perhaps the NSTB should require an interlock on the doors and windows so they can not be opened without a key if the train is going faster than five mph. Ok guys, don't start throwing the tomatoes at me. It was just a thought.
Odysseus
Interlocked doors add complexity, complexity cost money. What is the cost/benefit ratio in adding interlocked door locks?
OP mentioned something about 42 'lost' passengers - over what span of time? Out of how many total passengers during that span of time.
BaltACD OP mentioned something about 42 'lost' passengers - over what span of time? Out of how many total passengers during that span of time.
The 2012 article in the Santa Fe newspaper, for which I provided a link in the original post, indicated that over 40 Amtrak passengers fell off or walked off the train to their deaths since 1972, so that is in the last 43 years --- approximately one every year.
It is possible that Robin never arrived in Salt Lake city, though the Amtrak conductor and apparently another Amtrak employee as well reported seeing him get off the train. I suppose it is within the realm of possible that they were mistaken. I am wondering if there is anyone who could definitively place him on the train during approximately the last 3 hours of its travel from where his body was found, to Salt Lake City.
In my mind the most likely explanation is that Robin opened an exterior door of the train and walked right off the train, while it was traveling at 50mph or 60mph in that region, at night. While it is not known what was his state of mind while on the train, it is believed that he had experienced a psychotic break just the day prior to his trip. This would make it possible that, if again in a state of psychosis, he was unable to realize what he was doing in stepping out of a moving train.
I think some type of door lock if the train is moving, would make sense. That way passengers could still escape if there were an emergency and the train was stopped, but would not be able to walk off a moving train.
Oh geez, lets not put locks on the doors. Lets make it a requirement that people that are only competent part of the time travel with an escort OR at least inform the Conductor they need to be monitored and looked in on from time to time. Would prefer the escort option as that is a lot more humane.
Without a lot more information about those 40 deaths, it's impossible to know the how and why.
Were they intoxicated? Perhaps there was a conscious decision involved, ie, suicide. Were traps left open? Did folks open traps, perhaps to catch a surrepticious smoke? Were they answering the "voices in their head?"
This is not to make light of any individual death - each represents a loss to their family and friends. But each case was likely different.
As was noted, the instructions for opening a trap are plainly posted on some cars. Even if they weren't, unless there is some form of locking system, folks will figure out how to open them if they want to.
And sometimes people do things that defy explanation, even by their friends and family.
Remember, too, the story in Trains a while back about a woman who got off a stopped train (ATSF?) in the middle of nowhere, thinking it was a station stop. The train left without her and she survived essentially because there was a train order station a relatively short distance from where she got off the train.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Locking doors would eliminate them as a possible emergency exit. A big no no in my mind.
Looking at an Amtrak coach floor plan, the lower level bathrooms appear to be near the center exit doors. Could it be as simple as him being confused and thinking he was opening a bathroom door, opened the exit door and stepped through? Doesn't require foul play, doesn't require him getting on freight trains or making some connection. He just has to be confused enough to open door #1 instead of the door 2 feet to the right. It could be noisy and maybe the temperature wouldn't be that different if the doors leaked air. The doors have windows so before he opens the doors he can see scenery going by, after he opens the doors he can see scenery going by....
Open the door and take one step and he's gone.
Technical Amtrak question. Would the doors reclose? Did anybody report open doors? If the doors were closed when the train arrived the next stop (SLC) and the doors don't automatically reclose, then he didn't accidently open the door and fall out. On the oher hand it is entirely possible that the train arrived SLC, and the crew thought one of the other crew members had opened the door.
Superliner entry/exit doors do not close automatically; it takes a little effort to close them. I feel that someone would really be confused if he mistook the door to the outside for a restroom door.
Has the definition of "trap" changed? I have long understood that the plate over the steps of a single level car is a trap (like unto a trapdoor). Thus, Superliners do not have traps.
It would never be necessary to open a trap since the door opens over the trap for access at high level platforms, like Grand Central and Penn Station in NYC. But I agree that Superliners don't have them.
But at night on a moving train if you are half asleep it is often difficult to determine which door leads to the toilet, which to the next car and which opens to the outside world.The lighting is often darker than in the passenger saloon. In a single level car with the vestibule outboard of the truck a lurch in a curve can throw you against a door. If you were in the process of opening the door (in error or for fresh air if you felt unwell) you could be thrown out. With the door in the centre of a Superliner, the effect of a lurch would be less than at the end of a car.
In Australia electric central locking was applied to those trains that had manually operated doors.
In England until the 1970s, doors in other than suburban trains had handles on the outside only, so you lowered the widow in the door, reached out and opened the door. Doors to compartments and to the rest rooms were normal handles and this was said to indicate to passengers which doors were safe to open.
In 1977 I travelled on the "Empire Builder" from Seattle to Chicago. The trailing car was Sleeper Dome Buffet (although the Buffet was not used) but I was able to ride in the dome with only two or three other passengers. This car ran with the vestibule trailing. I think both doors were closed but there was no vestibule door, just a chain across the opening. I stood there for some time timing the mileposts (79 mph), as we had four SDP40Fs, two of which were being returned to EMD for conversion to F40PHs. It would have been easy for someone to have fallen over the chain and out.
M636C
Opening the side door of a Superliner requires a significant effort, and it is necessary to release the "dog" mounted at hairline level before the latch can be opened. I agree that a confused or disoriented person, or one incapacitated in some way, might make a mistake like this; but a normal person who can read English and has a reasonable awareness of his surroundings would not.
I agree that persons who are not fully competent should never travel alone by rail, especially at night. In my experience, elderly passengers with dementia become more confused and disoriented at night. Of course, this does not address the case at hand, in which the passenger was a young man.
I don't intend to insult the memory of the OP's friend. Obviously, the OP asks these questions because he feels a great loss and wants closure. However, it is possible that substance abuse was involved. Maybe the OP can address this possibility. His friend's other problems could just as likely be the cause.
Tom
Edit: M636C ---
Amtrak rules forbid passengers from riding on end vestibules, even if the car is in the middle of the train. It is doubly important that this rule be observed at the rear of the train. End doors are required to be locked.
I
ACY However, it is possible that substance abuse was involved. Maybe the OP can address this possibility. His friend's other problems could just as likely be the cause. Tom
However, it is possible that substance abuse was involved. Maybe the OP can address this possibility. His friend's other problems could just as likely be the cause.
I very much doubt that there was any substance abuse. Robin was an exceptionally clean living individual. I do feel a desire to know what happened to help obtain closure, but I also realize we may never know exactly what occurred. Simply for the authorities to have located his remains provides a great measure of relief -- it is quite difficult when someone just disappears and you have no idea what happened, whether they are dead or alive. Actually when I first heard he was missing, I believed he had wandered off into the desert into some remote area and perished there. I did not believe, as some did, that he would have the wherewithal or the character to get a new start in some new city, all without being seen, and never bothering to contact his loved ones.
I do believe that, in every possible scenario of what may have occurred, a compromised mental state played some part. I see three primary possibilities: (1) he fell off the train while en route, opening up an exterior door and stepping out. (2) He arrived at Salt Lake City, and then got off the train at 3am, wandered around for a while disoriented and in a delusional state, and eventually ended up boarding another train heading west, possibly with others,and then fell out or was pushed out. (3) He arrived at Salt Lake city, and got off the train at 3am, in a delusional and disoriented state, and met up with bad people, and then met with foul play and somehow ended up in the spot where he was found, perhaps by train, perhaps not. I can't see someone in their right mind getting off the train at the wrong stop at 3 in the morning, and going far from the train or being convinced to hang out with others, especially questionable characters, rather than reboard the train and continue to his destination.
Could our unfortunate traveler have detrained in SLC and maybe gotten disoriented enough to have wandered into the path of a train in the opposite direction? Then been dragged to where the body was found?
Not sure how far a body may stasy under a train...
Modeling the Cleveland and Pittsburgh during the PennCentral era starting on the Cleveland lakefront and ending in Mingo junction
ruderunner Could our unfortunate traveler have detrained in SLC and maybe gotten disoriented enough to have wandered into the path of a train in the opposite direction? Then been dragged to where the body was found? Not sure how far a body may stasy under a train...
I don't know much about trains -- I think most all of you on this site know a great deal more than I do about trains -- but it seems quite unlikely to me that he was dragged 180 miles west under a train...that's such a long way. Yet if that had happened I would think the authorities would be able to distinguish such an event from other possible scenarios, based on the condition of the remains.
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