In the 5 min. 54 sec. BNSF video linked below about Phase 2 of the Burlington, Iowa bridge replacement project, from about 3:45 to 4:20 Steve A. Millsap, Assistant Vice President - Structures, says that is his opinion the greatest heroes of that massive project were the flagmen/ Employees-In-Charge who were there every day 7 x 365 x 24 so that people were protected when they were on the track via the Form B process, etc.:
http://www.bnsf.com/media/video/?file=/media/video/video/burlington_bridge.flv&title=Phase%202%20of%20Burlington%20Bridge%20reconstruction#%23subtabs-1
- Paul North.
CalTrans has pretty much the same protocol for crossing the interstates or major state highways. Been stopped behind a rolling blockade at least once - while I was on my way to OERM in Perris.
My original question about bootlegged cable crossings had to do with the penalties that fiber optic companies charge backhoe operators for cutting cables. It would seem to me that the relevant company could have a hard time enforcing that penalty if the cable crossing hadn't been properly permitted.
Some interesting points being brought up in this discussion.
- Erik
"From the center of the earth to the heavens above."
Practically, maybe several hundred feet up - from there, air navigation rights take precedence.
I do a lot of work for PennDOT's "Highway Occupancy Permits", and for electric and other cable lines, the theory and practice is much the same. Any line crossing a PennDOT road (and there are many - 40,000+ miles worth) needs a permit. On 'local' roads it's usually issued routinely. But for crossings of the interstates, it's a big deal - poles lashed together on each side in an "H" shape to hold the cable above the road, usually strung by helicopter, limited to certain less trafficked hours during the middle of the day, lots of advance warning signs and message boards about "Be Prepared To Stop", Penna. State Police to either stop or regulate traffic to provide a 'window' of time by two (or more) patrol vehicles driving slowly side-by-side to create a "rolling traffic stop" or "rolling blockade", etc.
mudchicken...they don't own or have an easement for the road corridor crossing the track.
Which begs the question - how far above the tracks does a railroad control?
Clearly dragging a cable across the tracks is out of bounds. But, let's say the railroad is in a cut. The utility can line-gun a messenger across, then haul across larger lines and finally the cable in question without setting foot on or (save some droop) fouling the ROW.
This could also be applied to existing pole lines - again, a line gun to send a messenger. It might briefly foul the ROW, but would end up in the air.
Electric utilities use such a method to run new lines - in most cases not involving railroads (or a line gun), however.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
erikemMy thought was more like a Classics Illustrated
A, good old Classic Comics, or as I later heard them called, "Cliff's Notes for High School." Made plenty of use of them in high school myself. Made sure I laid in the correct titles at the beginning of each school year before the one store in town that sold them ran out.
And it still happens today ...
http://www.expressnews.com/business/local/article/Fiber-optic-cable-project-back-on-track-6171640.php
Of course the railroads have been known to step out of bounds as well.
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/current-and-former-owners-of-land-next-to-or-under-railroad-rights-of-way-may-be-eligible-for-cash-payments-from-class-action-settlement-153302031.html
Tree gets it - the worst violators used to be CATV outfits, but they have lots of friends on the underground side plus multiple cities and towns granting franchises without thinking about the fact that they don't own or have an easement for the road corridor crossing the track.
erikemOn a slightly different tack - Electronliner brought up the bootleg wire crossing. I'd wonder if the RR would be on the hook if they unintentionally severed the cable.
While there's no telling these days (judges and juries can be funny animals), I suspect that trespassing might well enter into the equation.
One might presume that an astute contractor might well have noticed things like the shadow around an Amtrak train or other such patterns and plan accordingly.
And, as we've discussed before, sometimes there really are long periods of inactivity on some lines.
Short of an unexpected train, or otherwise catching such a contractor in the act, a railroad's only indication might well be "was that there before?" This might be doubly true if a new cable is being added to an existing pole line...
As has been suggested, these "bootleg" installations may be more common than one might imagine.
ChuckCobleigh mudchicken Tolstoy, move over! Tolstoy would seem like Reader's Digest or a Little Golden Book by comparison.
mudchicken Tolstoy, move over!
Tolstoy would seem like Reader's Digest or a Little Golden Book by comparison.
Agreed.
I'm guessing the dirty feathered guy has enough stories alone to make Tolstoy seem terse by comparison. My thought was more like a Classics Illustrated approach, with the right amount of graphics to appeal to short attention spans
Look! A squirrel!
Bottom line for the contractors is they can't afford to pay for the flagging, they certainly can't afford to pay up if something goes wrong. In addition, if they are so poor at planning that they can't properly schedule flag protection, then there is good cause to wonder if they are any good at safety.
On a slightly different tack - Electronliner brought up the bootleg wire crossing. I'd wonder if the RR would be on the hook if they unintentionally severed the cable.
mudchickenTolstoy, move over!
Re: erikem: Those multipliers are supposed to include a generous proportion of profit for the contractor - 25% is common, I've been told - esp. in the consulting / service sectors (as distinguished from construction). For the railroad flagger, it's just to recoup the out-of-pocket costs of him/ her.
Re: BaltACD, and others: Suppose you're a railroad manager. You have a contractor asking for a flagger, which has to be a rules-qualified person. What's in it for you ? Dollar-for-dollar reimbursement at best.
Meanwhile, you also have all kinds of trains tying up the yards and mainlines for lack of qualified crews - incurring various delay and extra costs and penalties/ rebates of the charges (UPS train, anyone ?), and/ or also incurring the "opportunity cost" of lost revenue due to the shippers using other modes (truck, etc.) - might be on the order of $3,000 to $10,000 per hour.
So if you have a limited number of qualified, rested pesonnel - which service are you going to assign them to ? How would you explain the contractor flagging to your boss ?
BaltACD also mentioned communications. I'm sure that during a busy season, everyone appreciates [heavy sarcasm here] the added volume between the flagman, the trains and DS.
Maybe another time some comments about how this situation might be avoided by structuring the Public Utility Commission approval and City construction contracts to be more pro-active and railroad-favorable.
rdamon The permit process, hassle and cost has probably led to several of these “renegade” wire crossings. I remember in the late 1990’s NS increased their wireline crossing permits (on existing crossings) from $7,000 to $50,000. At that time, I am sure they were getting barraged with applications, but even with the higher price waiting 6-12 weeks for an answer was not always an option if you were a contractor for a major communication company racing to build a network. Stop, Look, Listen and Lash happened more often than you think.
Short notice flagging can be requested, nominally the week ahead, or even the day ahead; however, the likelyhood of NOT getting a flagger goes up exponetially with shortness of the notice. Also there is a greater likelyhood of NOT getting a flagger if the hours are outside of the normal daylight work periods. There is also a great likelyhood of NOT getting your flagger if it is only requested for one or two days during the week.
On my carrier Train Messages identifying the locations of Flagmen must be issued at least 14 hours prior to the start of the flagging time. It does no good to have a flagger on site if the trains don't know that there is a flagger at a location. When it is determined that the flag position wasn't filled, then the Train Dispatcher must notify all trains that have the flagging message that is has been annulled.
We currently have a territory that has 4 MofW work areas and 3 T&E flagmen - Trains have to contact each of these to get Permission to pass through the locations. A whole lot of communication must take place within a 100 mile territory that is running 50 to 60 trains during daylight hours.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
One other consideration is the timing of the communication of the contractor. My experience with RR flaggers is because they are craft jobs, it has to be advertised to the members and bids taken and awarded. This process can take weeks or months. Only if there are no qualified bidders is the work assigned. So the contractor just can't call up and say, "we need a flagger tomorrow" (or next week) and get one.
erikem Paul_D_North_Jr Lots on contractors and owners don't understand or underestimate the portal-to-portal pay basis of some RR employees (travel time and mileage), plus overtime and other extras, and esp. the health, welfare, and pension plus union dues additives - can be more than the base hourly rate - etc. For government contract work, I've never seen a labor multiplier less than 2.5, with 3 to 3.5 being a lot more common. Doesn't surprise me one bit that the various costs add up to some serious money. I'd wonder if it would be worthwhile for the AAR or some similar body to come up with a downloadable brochure with lots of examples on just what can go wrong with construction around an operating railroad.
Paul_D_North_Jr Lots on contractors and owners don't understand or underestimate the portal-to-portal pay basis of some RR employees (travel time and mileage), plus overtime and other extras, and esp. the health, welfare, and pension plus union dues additives - can be more than the base hourly rate - etc.
Lots on contractors and owners don't understand or underestimate the portal-to-portal pay basis of some RR employees (travel time and mileage), plus overtime and other extras, and esp. the health, welfare, and pension plus union dues additives - can be more than the base hourly rate - etc.
For government contract work, I've never seen a labor multiplier less than 2.5, with 3 to 3.5 being a lot more common. Doesn't surprise me one bit that the various costs add up to some serious money.
I'd wonder if it would be worthwhile for the AAR or some similar body to come up with a downloadable brochure with lots of examples on just what can go wrong with construction around an operating railroad.
The problem is the mindset of the owner (city) and contractors. What they need to recognize is the following (from a sign I saw in New York City about 3 years ago):
"This is not a construction site with a railroad running through it.
It is an operating railroad with some construction on the side."
Last year NS used a C&S guy for an overhead bridge repair project near Lehighton. Line was not busy - a lot of trains run at night - and he was there to check that the track was clear before allowing any train that showed up to proceed. No real risk of damage to the track - it was just fouled by those rubber-tired cherry-pickers or man-lifts, which were off to the side of the track, but their booms were overhead.
Short line Delaware-Lackawanna was using a brakeman a month or so ago for a similar operation - PennDOT inspection of an overhead bridge.
Electroliner 1935 Even so, another Electrical Engineer chose to throw the fiber optic cable over the tracks and the crews got it pulled up and secured to the poles without getting clearance. As Sgt Schultz said, "I Know nutting".
Even so, another Electrical Engineer chose to throw the fiber optic cable over the tracks and the crews got it pulled up and secured to the poles without getting clearance. As Sgt Schultz said, "I Know nutting".
Lucky they didn't end up with a 3 piece cable.
When I was installing power line communications in the 80's we had to cross RR lines. Our Real Estate Dept. had to negotiate the crossing agreements and some of the RR's were notorious for being difficult to deal with. If they felt you had disrespected them, forget it hell could freeze before they would agree to anything. Eventually you would get your permit and could schedule the work and watchmen but on the RR's terms and schedule. It's their property and they defend it as thay should. But you need a deferential attitude to get anything done.
BaltACD cx500 In my experience flagging jobs on this type of construction project were generally done by maintenance of way personnel. The focus is on keeping the r-o-w and track clear when a train is planned. While T&E folks have rules qualification, theirs is a different skill set. A track guy is better since he knows more about keeping track safe to operate on. And if somehow the track gets damaged, he can start the corrective process and contact the additional resources immediately. John Depends upon the agreements that are in place - some properties it goes to MofW, other properties it goes to T&E.
cx500 In my experience flagging jobs on this type of construction project were generally done by maintenance of way personnel. The focus is on keeping the r-o-w and track clear when a train is planned. While T&E folks have rules qualification, theirs is a different skill set. A track guy is better since he knows more about keeping track safe to operate on. And if somehow the track gets damaged, he can start the corrective process and contact the additional resources immediately. John
In my experience flagging jobs on this type of construction project were generally done by maintenance of way personnel. The focus is on keeping the r-o-w and track clear when a train is planned. While T&E folks have rules qualification, theirs is a different skill set. A track guy is better since he knows more about keeping track safe to operate on. And if somehow the track gets damaged, he can start the corrective process and contact the additional resources immediately.
John
Depends upon the agreements that are in place - some properties it goes to MofW, other properties it goes to T&E.
My viewpoint on manpower planning is that the counts for conductors/trainmen done by the 'powers' do not take into account the flagging jobs that are required to be filled by T&E personnel, therefore, the availability of a qualified flagman on any given day is open to question.
mudchicken....in so many words, the article is not passing the smell test from a railroader's perspective.
Railroads deal with contractors all the time; contractors deal with railroads not so much of the time. Protocols for safety and liability around railroads are pretty well established (have seen detailed policy information on either or both of the UP or BNSF websites in the past) but are apparently not looked into by contractors when making bids and schedules unless they have been through the drill before or somebody actually has a clue about things like that.
When the failure to do the homework causes schedule or budget disruptions, the predictable reaction is finger pointing on both sides: contractor's index finger, railroad's non-index finger. Then you get the linked article.
Or as my late father-in-law put it: "When you are up to your hiney in alligators, it's time to admit you should have drained the swamp."
Will come back to this when I get the time, but:
(1) Suspect there is sticker shock over CSX insurance policy (CSX is famous for that, doesn't help that their Hemet, CA Risk Manager subconsultant, also used by BNSF, is not altogether on the ball, aloof and less than cordial) RRPP is not cheap.
(2) Not sure I want to buy the logal govt. agency claim that it's solely the railroad causing the delay. (State of Oregon DOT got kicked off all projects in Oregon for 6 months over UP R/W because they got stooooopid last fall. Some of us are a little amused by the Newswire story from yesterday, they might have 3 FRA compliant people?)
(3) Contractor pays for the 214 qualified construction flagman, part of the project cost passed on to the state. If the contractor left this out of his propposal estimate, double shame on him. If he set up shop with out a safety management plan, he's doomed (may be the case here, CSX not gonna hold his hand for the life of the project)...If the contractor failed to railroad safety train his people, he's dead in the water as well.
(4) When the project went through the Application/Decision process administered by a different section of the state (Rail section of NYSDOT, formerly the PSC railroad commission)the state/local/railroad portions would be agreed to prior to commencement of work. (any public road project over about any railroad in any state works in a similar fashion)
....in so many words, the article is not passing the smell test from a railroader's perspective.
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